Limited redeemed, not Limited redemption.

[Silverhair]

You really don't have a sense of humor do you.
Keep falling on your Calvinist doll while the rest of us go to God's word. It's obvious you are stuck in a prejudice of your own making.

Austin you may think that Calvinism is correct but as much as I have looked at it I do not see that it fits with scripture and I really find that it does not honor God's character at all.
When I have made comments all that seems to come back are snide remarks or scripture taken out of context. Even when I talked to ministers all that I got was you just are not understanding scripture. Well when I read the text and it says x then to me that is what it means. When I hear Calvinists comment on a text they twist it or change the meaning of the words. So tell me what should I really trust?
You may not agree with what I say but when I comment it is just what I see in the text, but you and all the other Calvinists on here will not agree and that is your right.
But I will continue to point out the errors of Calvinism and you will continue to disagree even though you are wrong.
As I said to others on here I will pray that the Holy Spirit will guide you into a correct understanding of scripture. Bonne Chance.

 

[Reformed1689]

Austin you may think that Calvinism is correct but as much as I have looked at it I do not see that it fits with scripture and I really find that it does not honor God's character at all.
When I have made comments all that seems to come back are snide remarks or scripture taken out of context. Even when I talked to ministers all that I got was you just are not understanding scripture. Well when I read the text and it says x then to me that is what it means. When I hear Calvinists comment on a text they twist it or change the meaning of the words. So tell me what should I really trust?
You may not agree with what I say but when I comment it is just what I see in the text, but you and all the other Calvinists on here will not agree and that is your right.
But I will continue to point out the errors of Calvinism and you will continue to disagree even though you are wrong.
As I said to others on here I will pray that the Holy Spirit will guide you into a correct understanding of scripture. Bonne Chance.

All you point out are strawmen errors.

 

[Silverhair]

All you point out are strawmen errors.

What you call strawman errors are not errors when you look at scripture without a bias.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

As I said to others on here I will pray that the Holy Spirit will guide you into a correct understanding of scripture. Bonne Chance.

That is very kind of you. I'm sure we will all be praying that the Holy Spirit will lead you into a correct understanding of Scripture.

 

[Dave G]

When I read Joh 3:16 I see that God does indeed love all of His creation equally.

When I read His words outside of John 3:16 and a few select passages, I see that He hates the wicked and loves the righteous:

" For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.
5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the Lord will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.
7 But as for me, I will come into thy house in the multitude of thy mercy: and in thy fear will I worship toward thy holy temple.
8 Lead me, O Lord, in thy righteousness because of mine enemies; make thy way straight before my face.
9 For there is no faithfulness in their mouth; their inward part is very wickedness; their throat is an open sepulchre; they flatter with their tongue.
10 Destroy thou them, O God; let them fall by their own counsels; cast them out in the multitude of their transgressions; for they have rebelled against thee.
11 But let all those that put their trust in thee rejoice: let them ever shout for joy, because thou defendest them: let them also that love thy name be joyful in thee.
12 For thou, Lord, wilt bless the righteous; with favour wilt thou compass him as with a shield." ( Psalms 5:4-12 ).

Reading the above, I see some pretty harsh language compared to John 3:16 and several other passages in the New Testament.

In fact, I see a very clear distinction between one group of people and the other;
One in which the Lord hates one, and loves another...
Favors one, and disfavors another.

That, my friend, is the very same God of the New Testament, who does not change ( Malachi 3:6, Numbers 23:19 ).

 

[Dave G]

" Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of His saints." ( Psalms 116:15 ).
If He loved everyone equally, wouldn't it say that the death of every man is precious in the sight of the Lord?
Instead, it clearly says:

" The wicked plotteth against the just, and gnasheth upon him with his teeth.
13 The Lord shall laugh at him: for he seeth that his day is coming." ( Psalms 37:13 ).

Looks to me as if the Lord does not love everyone equally, my friend;
He laughs at the wicked, according to this.
I'm not sure how much clearer it could be.

" But the salvation of the righteous is of the Lord: he is their strength in the time of trouble.
40 And the Lord shall help them, and deliver them: he shall deliver them from the wicked, and save them, because they trust in him." ( Psalms 37:39-40 ).

If God loved everyone equally, wouldn't He cause there to be peace between the wicked and the righteous, instead of delivering the righteous from the wicked and protecting His people from them?

" These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 a proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 an heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19 a false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren."( Proverbs 6:16-19 ).

The last two caught my attention...
Instead of saying that the Lord hates lies, it says that He hates a false witness that speaks lies...the person, not just the sin.
Instead of saying that He hates the discord, it says that He hates "he that sows discord"...the person.

That is just a small sampling of God's words on the subject...a God that clearly, ( at least to me ) does not, and never did, love every person equally.
That's not "Calvinism"....that is God's word.

@Silverhair :
I encourage you to read more of it than just the New Testament...
He has quite a bit to say regarding both His love, His hatred, and what pleases Him and displeases Him.

 

[Dave G]

You require a God of power whereas I see a God that is love incarnate. We will never see eye to eye on these matters but I will pray that you do find your way back to the God of scripture.

I cannot speak for Dave, but when I read the Scriptures,
I see a God of unimaginable and perfect power, holiness, grace, love, kindness, mercy, wrath, anger, righteousness, and justice.

His Son is love incarnate, as well as God's wrath incarnate:

" We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;
4 so that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
5 which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
6 seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7 and to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day." ( 2 Thessalonians 1:3-10 ).

That stops me dead in my tracks every time, and causes me to get real small.
Have you not read these things?

Please see Revelation 19:11-21 for the real Jesus Christ.
When He comes again, it won't just be to claim those that He loves.

 

[AustinC]

What you call strawman errors are not errors when you look at scripture without a bias.

You are not even looking at scripture. You are ignoring the scripture I provide and responding with: CALVINIST!
It really is a strawman you are bringing up.
If only you would stick strickly to scripture alone...

 

[Silverhair]

When I read His words outside of John 3:16 and a few select passages, I see that He hates the wicked and loves the righteous:

" For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.
5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the Lord will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.
7 But as for me, I will come into thy house in the multitude of thy mercy: and in thy fear will I worship toward thy holy temple.
8 Lead me, O Lord, in thy righteousness because of mine enemies; make thy way straight before my face.
9 For there is no faithfulness in their mouth; their inward part is very wickedness; their throat is an open sepulchre; they flatter with their tongue.
10 Destroy thou them, O God; let them fall by their own counsels; cast them out in the multitude of their transgressions; for they have rebelled against thee.
11 But let all those that put their trust in thee rejoice: let them ever shout for joy, because thou defendest them: let them also that love thy name be joyful in thee.
12 For thou, Lord, wilt bless the righteous; with favour wilt thou compass him as with a shield." ( Psalms 5:4-12 ).

Reading the above, I see some pretty harsh language compared to John 3:16 and several other passages in the New Testament.

In fact, I see a very clear distinction between one group of people and the other;
One in which the Lord hates one, and loves another...
Favors one, and disfavors another.

That, my friend, is the very same God of the New Testament, who does not change ( Malachi 3:6, Numbers 23:19 ).

But therein lays the difference between you and me all you can see is the wrath whereas I see God that has real sorrow for those that do not come to Him. God hates sin and will judge it but these verses do not support what you want them to. You did realize that this was David speaking not God?

And you are right God does not change: Christ Jesus said
Mat_5:43 "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.'
Mat_5:44 "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
Mar 12:30 AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.'
Mar 12:31 "The second is this, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' There is no other commandment greater than these."

We can rejoice in the fact that the God of the OT is the same as of the NT. God does not change.

 

[Dave G]

But therein lays the difference between you and me all you can see is the wrath whereas I see God that has real sorrow for those that do not come to Him.

No, all I do not see is the wrath.
I see His love for His people, and His everlasting contempt ( Daniel 12:2 ) for those that are not....
and His willingness to show both His anger and His wrath to those that He is angry with ( Psalms 7:11 ), and His mercy and His compassion to those that He is not.

While I myself have sorrow for those who do not come to Him, I do not see Him having the same compassion that I do,
or He would have tasked His Son with saving them.
Rather:

" He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." ( John 3:36 ).

God hates sin and will judge it but these verses do not support what you want them to. You did realize that this was David speaking not God?

According to the passages I listed, I clearly see that God hates both the sin and the sinner, as only a holy and perfect God can.
I also see that David here was speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit...so he was speaking God's words that He gave to him to speak.

We can rejoice in the fact that the God of the OT is the same as of the NT. God does not change.

Amen.

I see that the God who does not change is the God of the Old Testament who hates sin and sinners, and who loves righteousness and the righteous...
and the God of the New, who loves His people and hates the wicked, the same as He always has, with the very same unchanging attitude towards both.

He loves those to whom He calls, "beloved";
Those who have been made righteous by the blood of His Son, Jesus Christ.

 

[Silverhair]

" Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of His saints." ( Psalms 116:15 ).
If He loved everyone equally, wouldn't it say that the death of every man is precious in the sight of the Lord?
Instead, it clearly says:

" The wicked plotteth against the just, and gnasheth upon him with his teeth.
13 The Lord shall laugh at him: for he seeth that his day is coming." ( Psalms 37:13 ).

Looks to me as if the Lord does not love everyone equally, my friend;
He laughs at the wicked, according to this.
I'm not sure how much clearer it could be.

" But the salvation of the righteous is of the Lord: he is their strength in the time of trouble.
40 And the Lord shall help them, and deliver them: he shall deliver them from the wicked, and save them, because they trust in him." ( Psalms 37:39-40 ).

If God loved everyone equally, wouldn't He cause there to be peace between the wicked and the righteous, instead of delivering the righteous from the wicked and protecting His people from them?

" These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 a proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 an heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19 a false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren."( Proverbs 6:16-19 ).

The last two caught my attention...
Instead of saying that the Lord hates lies, it says that He hates a false witness that speaks lies...the person, not just the sin.
Instead of saying that He hates the discord, it says that He hates "he that sows discord"...the person.

That is just a small sampling of God's words on the subject...a God that clearly, ( at least to me ) does not, and never did, love every person equally.
That's not "Calvinism"....that is God's word.

@Silverhair :
I encourage you to read more of it than just the New Testament...
He has quite a bit to say regarding both His love, His hatred, and what pleases Him and displeases Him.

Dave G. I do read both the OT & the NT, but I do read verses in context. And if I am going to use verses to support my view of God or theological view I think it would be better to trust in what we find in the NT as that is where we find Christ Jesus revealed. While I agree that God does indeed hate sin and those that promote sin that does not stop Him from wanting them to come to faith in His son does it?

Christ Jesus said:
Mar 12:31 "The second is this, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' There is no other commandment greater than these." Are we to show greater love to our fellow man than God does?
He said: Mat 11:28 "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest." Does He only want good people to come to Him?
No He did not:
Mat 9:13 "But go and learn what this means: 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
And we know this invitation to salvation was for all:
Joh 7:37 Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink.
Joh 7:38 "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'" God desires all to come to faith in His son, would you not want the same?

Yes God will show His wrath toward those that reject Him but even then He holds out His hands to them that they may turn and live because He does not want anyone to die. That is the God that I see in the bible. He is LOVE He shows compassion and He is merciful.

 

[Dave G]

Dave G. I do read both the OT & the NT, but I do read verses in context.

As do I.

And if I am going to use verses to support my view of God or theological view I think it would be better to trust in what we find in the NT as that is where we find Christ Jesus revealed.

I value it all, my friend.

While I agree that God does indeed hate sin and those that promote sin that does not stop Him from wanting them to come to faith in His son does it?

No it does not.

His choice to have mercy on compassion on whom He will ( Exodus 33:19, Romans 9:14-18 ), does.
His purpose according to election, does.

Did you miss what Paul told us in Romans 8, Romans 9, Romans 10, Romans 11, Ephesians 1, Ephesians 2 and many others?
Please read it again...it really does tells us why God saves some and not others.

 

[Dave G]

Yes God will show His wrath toward those that reject Him

Which is all of us according to Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, John 3:19-20 and Psalms 10, Psalms 14 and many others.
Do you not see that?

but even then He holds out His hands to them that they may turn and live because He does not want anyone to die.

I think you're confusing His first covenant with Israel and the language of it, with the terms and language of the second...
His love and blessings ( and hatred and cursings ) upon Israel according to the terms of the Law, and His everlasting love for His spiritual people out of every tongue, tribe and nation according to the New Testament in Christ's blood.

That is the God that I see in the bible. He is LOVE He shows compassion and He is merciful.

I respect that but find that I must disagree.
To me, His love has a context, and His wrath has a context.

Each of them is directed at a particular group...
One large and one quite small, and it is by His doing.

 

[Silverhair]

No, all I do not see is the wrath.
I see His love for His people, and His everlasting contempt ( Daniel 12:2 ) for those that are not....
and His willingness to show both His anger and His wrath to those that He is angry with ( Psalms 7:11 ), and His mercy and His compassion to those that He is not.

While I myself have sorrow for those who do not come to Him, I do not see Him having the same compassion that I do,
or He would have tasked His Son with saving them.
Rather:

" He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." ( John 3:36 ).

According to the passages I listed, I clearly see that God hates both the sin and the sinner, as only a holy and perfect God can.
I also see that David here was speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit...so he was speaking God's words that He gave to him to speak.

Amen.

I see that the God who does not change is the God of the Old Testament who hates sin and sinners, and who loves righteousness and the righteous...
and the God of the New, who loves His people and hates the wicked, the same as He always has, with the very same unchanging attitude towards both.

He loves those to whom He calls, "beloved";
Those who have been made righteous by the blood of His Son, Jesus Christ.

Dave G to say that I am shocked my your comment is an understatement.
>>While I myself have sorrow for those who do not come to Him, I do not see Him having the same compassion that I do,or He would have tasked His Son with saving them.<<

If you do not see God having the same compassion that you have then what kind of God do you worship? If you do not think that Christ Jesus came to save the lost then who did He come to save?
Mat_9:13 "But go and learn what this means: 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
Mar_2:17 And hearing this, Jesus *said to them, "It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick; I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
Luk_5:32 "I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance."
Mat_18:11 ["For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost.]
Luk_19:10 "For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost."

Dave if you cannot see that God loves all and that Christ Jesus came so that all could be saved, note I did not say would be saved, then I am really at a lose for words.

Roger Olson put it best
Interpret the Bible Christologically, with Jesus Christ as the “touchstone” of biblical interpretation - because he is God incarnate and therefore above even The Bible as the supreme revelation of God.
Whatever in Scripture seems to conflict with God revealed in Jesus must be interpreted in light of God revealed in Jesus.

 

[Silverhair]

As do I.

I value it all, my friend.

No it does not.

His choice to have mercy on compassion on whom He will ( Exodus 33:19, Romans 9:14-18 ), does.
His purpose according to election, does.

Did you miss what Paul told us in Romans 8, Romans 9, Romans 10, Romans 11, Ephesians 1, Ephesians 2 and many others?
Please read it again...it really does tells us why God saves some and not others.

I really think you need to spend more time on those texts. Christ Jesus is the savoir of all men not just some men. He is the elect one and we are only elect when we place our faith in Him. You think that God selected a special group to be saved but then reject the idea that means He condemned the rest of humanity to hell for no reason. You want your cake and then to be able to eat to.

 

[Dave G]

If you do not see God having the same compassion that you have then what kind of God do you worship?

The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
The God who loved Jacob and hated Esau ( Romans 9:13 ).

The God who created the Heavens and the earth, and who I will one day see His Son and thank Him for what He has done for me.

If you do not think that Christ Jesus came to save the lost then who did He come to save?

His people from their sins ( Matthew 1:21 ).

Dave if you cannot see that God loves all and that Christ Jesus came so that all could be saved, note I did not say would be saved, then I am really at a lose for words.

I'm sorry to see you say that, but I'm not all that surprised.
You see salvation as a potential for all ( as I was taught growing up in IFB churches ), and I see it as accomplished for God's people.

Roger Olson put it best
Interpret the Bible Christologically, with Jesus Christ as the “touchstone” of biblical interpretation - because he is God incarnate and therefore above even The Bible as the supreme revelation of God.
Whatever in Scripture seems to conflict with God revealed in Jesus must be interpreted in light of God revealed in Jesus.

Jesus Christ is the Word made flesh and the only begotten of the Father;
Both He and His words are in complete agreement with one another. He is not above the word of God, He is the Word of God.
If there is any conflict in the Scriptures, it is in our minds alone.

That said, is there a reason that we as believers should listen to men like Roger Olson, when we have it within ourselves to understand the Scriptures by our Teacher ( 1 Corinthians 2:6-16, 1 John 2:20-27 )?

Silverhair, I don't "interpret" the Bible by anything...
I read it and believe its every word.

 

[Dave G]

He is the elect one and we are only elect when we place our faith in Him.

His choice depends on ours?
My friend, that is not God choosing.

That is us meriting our salvation by doing something for God.

You think that God selected a special group to be saved but then reject the idea that means He condemned the rest of humanity to hell for no reason.

What I see is God condemning people to the Lake of Fire for their willfully committed sins, which is what the Scriptures say ( Revelation 20:11-15 ).
Every man according to his works, or deeds.

You want your cake and then to be able to eat to.

The "cake" was never mine to want...it was mine to have.
You truly do not understand it, do you?

Eternal life is a gift...
It was given to me.
I didn't earn it because I decided to believe on Christ, I believed on His Son because my Father gave me to His Son to save ( John 17:2 ).

I thank Him for His gifts every day, and I will praise Him for an eternity.

 

[Silverhair]

Which is all of us according to Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, John 3:19-20 and Psalms 10, Psalms 14 and many others.
Do you not see that?

I think you're confusing His first covenant with Israel and the language of it, with the terms and language of the second...
His love and blessings ( and hatred and cursings ) upon Israel according to the terms of the Law, and His everlasting love for His spiritual people out of every tongue, tribe and nation according to the New Testament in Christ's blood.

I respect that but find that I must disagree.
To me, His love has a context, and His wrath has a context.

Each of them is directed at a particular group...
One large and one quite small, and it is by His doing.

>>but even then He holds out His hands to them that they may turn and live because He does not want anyone to die.<< This not me confusing who God is because He is the same from beginning to end. It seems that you think we have a God of the OT and a new one in the NT. If you cannot see that God loves all of His creation then you are not reading the bible. You seem to be just picking out verses that you think support your view. You have lost the understanding of who God really is.

 

[Dave G]

If you cannot see that God loves all of His creation then you are not reading the bible. You seem to be just picking out verses that you think support your view. You have lost the understanding of who God really is.

I'm reading from the same Bible that you are, my friend.
You understand it one way, and I understand it another...

Completely 180 degrees out when it comes to how and why someone is saved.

With that, I find that further discussion will be of no profit for either of us.
For can two walk together unless they are agreed ( Amos 3:3 )?
No.

 

[Silverhair]

His choice depends on ours?
My friend, that is not God choosing.

That is us meriting our salvation by doing something for God.

What I see is God condemning people to the Lake of Fire for their willfully committed sins, which is what the Scriptures say ( Revelation 20:11-15 ).
Every man according to his works.

The "cake" was never mine to want...
You truly do not understand it, do you?

Eternal life is a gift...
It was given to me.
I didn't earn it because I decided to believe on Christ, I believed on His Son because He gave me to His Son to save ( John 17:2 ).

I thank Him for it out of gratitude, especially after what He has shown to me.

Well then I think you need to read scripture again:
Rom 3:21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Note we all sin yet we can all be saved through faith in Christ Jesus.

Rom 3:24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
Rom 3:25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
Salvation is a gift we get by His grace because of our faith

Rom 3:29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,
Rom 3:30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.
Jews are the circumcised ones the Gentiles are the uncircumcised ones. And please note once again salvation is by faith. Faith is the requirement that God has set so it is not a work nor is it merit. Actually when you look at it Christ Jesus this regarding work and faith. Joh_6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

So you see Dave we are told that we must believe in Christ Jesus. And we know He was speaking of salvation because of the context of that verse.Joh 6:26-28