Line Between Heresy and Difference of Opinion

[Iconoclast]

Puritan or reformed? But that is the problem isn't it? What about John Wesley? Dave Hunt? and others such as them.

I am not sure why the puritans or reformers are problematic?

I have seem some quotes by wesley that were good, but Not as sharp as the puritans.I would not mention Dave Hunt with any of those men, based on the small sampling of his ideas.

 

[Bronconagurski]

The writings of historical dead theologeans make interesting reading, but so do comic books. The Bible is the only source of knowing and understanding Christianity. There is no excuse for any true Baptist putting any stock in creeds or chants. A parrot can do that.

I understand the parrot part, but comparing the writings of dead theologians to comic books is ridiculous, no offense. And you have it wrong. The bible is the only source of revelation, but it is inspired by the Holy Spirit, and it illuminates by the power of the Holy Spirit. You can read the bible all day long and not understand it if the Holy Spirit doesn't give you light. God has used and will use men to preach the word and expound upon it just as Philip did for the Ethiopian Eunich.

Finally, the bible doesn't say anything anywhere about understanding Christianity. The bible was written to reveal God to man, and His great salvation through His son Jesus Christ.

 

[saturneptune]

I understand the parrot part, but comparing the writings of dead theologians to comic books is ridiculous, no offense. And you have it wrong. The bible is the only source of revelation, but it is inspired by the Holy Spirit, and it illuminates by the power of the Holy Spirit. You can read the bible all day long and not understand it if the Holy Spirit doesn't give you light. God has used and will use men to preach the word and expound upon it just as Philip did for the Ethiopian Eunich.

Finally, the bible doesn't say anything anywhere about understanding Christianity. The bible was written to reveal God to man, and His great salvation through His son Jesus Christ.

That is where you are wrong. A Christian has the Holy Spirit in him or her as a given. Therefore, any Christian reading the Bible is illuminated. You present a totally wrong argument. God uses men to preach yes, but men are flawed, and a creed document, such as the Apostles Creed that infects entire denominations, is to be nice about it, a secular document.

Everything in the Bible is about living the Christian life, especially the letters of Paul, therefore understanding Christianity. It is not going to church once a week, it is a 24/7 deal.

If you support creeds to worship the Lord, join the Catholic church.

 

[Iconoclast]

I understand the parrot part, but comparing the writings of dead theologians to comic books is ridiculous, no offense. And you have it wrong. The bible is the only source of revelation, but it is inspired by the Holy Spirit, and it illuminates by the power of the Holy Spirit. You can read the bible all day long and not understand it if the Holy Spirit doesn't give you light. God has used and will use men to preach the word and expound upon it just as Philip did for the Ethiopian Eunich.

Finally, the bible doesn't say anything anywhere about understanding Christianity. The bible was written to reveal God to man, and His great salvation through His son Jesus Christ.

Yes Bski you are correct. Some persons have the idea that no one else had the Holy Spirit or a bible, but them or until them.Then they want people to read what they write instead of the men who were gifted and trained by God
That does not seem to make sense ,does it?:laugh:

 

[saturneptune]

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[Iconoclast]

Right on, we all know your posts are inspired.

Here is the inspired word for you;


14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.

15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.

16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.

 

[saturneptune]

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[Iconoclast]

Why yes, as with most other posters, you imply a lack of salvation. Think what you want, I really do not care. Your character speaks for itself.

No...just describing your root problem as I see it.....you brought strife in here when there was none. You have a problem with me...as I told you last year.Now your running your mouth about it plain and simple. I just am calling you on it.

 

[saturneptune]

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[Iconoclast]

You started it on two different threads as you did a year ago. Own up to it or try and deny it...it is in print as it unfolded. two moderators and three others saw it as I have.
I told you the same thing then as now....you go your way, I will go mine.

 

[saturneptune]

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[Iconoclast]

oh yeah...I am worried. Saturneptune is there...lol

 

[salzer mtn]

Romans 8:17
Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory


Thessalonians 2:14
He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 5:1
[ To the Elders and the Flock ] To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder and a witness of Christ’s sufferings who also will share in the glory to be revealed:

We should praise God for what He has given us the ability to do within our free agency.

If God gave me the ability to fly by will, God gets the glory for without Him we could not in the first place. I am sorry for those who try to take the glory for what God has given him the ability to do. Don't let man make you ashamed or guilty for doing what God gave you the ability to do and you can still give Him all glory. Why make the one suffer for those that abuse it.

The glory that is spoken of in these scripture has to do with eternal glory. Example: A christian might say, i am going to glory when i die.

 

[salzer mtn]

In my search of truth of doctrines, whether it be Calvinism or Arminianism i ask this one question, what i believe, does it give God all the glory or does it give man all the glory. Does what i believe share the glory of God with man. If a person will apply this question to his heart it makes it easier to understand truth from a lie.

Gal 6:14 God forbid that i should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ. In 1 Cor chapter one the scripture speaks of God calling the foolish things, the weak things, base things and despised things that no flesh should glory in his presence. That according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. Isaiah 42:8 I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will i not give to another. Psalmist David said in Psa 115:1 Not unto us, O Lord, not unto us, but unto thy name give glory, for thy mercy and for thy truth's sake. Does what you believe cause you to bow down to God's will in the crisis of your life or does what you believe about God cause you to question God in crisis or question your self, as, could i have done more for God and this wouldn't of happened. Some belief's causes a person to constantly look inwardly for answers instead of saying, it is the Lord, i will submitt my will unto his will.

 

[saturneptune]

Gal 6:14 God forbid that i should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ. In 1 Cor chapter one the scripture speaks of God calling the foolish things, the weak things, base things and despised things that no flesh should glory in his presence. That according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. Isaiah 42:8 I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will i not give to another. Psalmist David said in Psa 115:1 Not unto us, O Lord, not unto us, but unto thy name give glory, for thy mercy and for thy truth's sake. Does what you believe cause you to bow down to God's will in the crisis of your life or does what you believe about God cause you to question God in crisis or question your self, as, could i have done more for God and this wouldn't of happened. Some belief's causes a person to constantly look inwardly for answers instead of saying, it is the Lord, i will submitt my will unto his will.

I appreciate that post. I have noticed a few things in my time here on earth. One is that most growth in spiritual maturity comes during a crisis. The other is I would say 85-90% of our ordeals are caused by our own selfish or worldly decisions about this or that. If we were walking with the Lord like we should, the number of times would be less, and the times we did have would be total trust in our Savior.

 

[thomas15]

Herald, are you calling me arrogant and misinformed? Arrogant and misinformed for what reason? Because I have a different theology than you? Is it because I place the Word of God above the writings of men? Do you not know that the Roman Catholic Church uses the same line of reasoning and methods to defend their theology that Icon uses to defend his? Did you know that?

Are the commentaries, (some of which I use) inspired and or God breathed? Did you know that the writings of the early church fathers are not Scripture? Did you know that the reformed creeds are not given by God for the teaching, reproof, correction, and training in righteousness to equip the believer for every good work?

Perhaps your comments are for another post not mine? If so, who do you direct your thoughts to?

It is an arrogant and misinformed person who believes they are the final word on the interpretation of scripture. I am not going to allow my friend, Iconoclast, to be misrepresented. He is does not believe that the writings of men trump scripture. He understands that creeds and confessions are lesser documents. The same goes for commentaries and the notes in study bibles. There is a tendency among some to swing the pendulum so far the other way they that they look down on the labors of godly men from the past. Many of these godly men are dead, but some preach from your pulpits each Lord's Day, or teach in bible colleges and seminaries. They labor hard at rightly understanding the Word of God. To the extent that their words (written or spoken) are true to scripture, they should be heeded. It is foolish for those who are deceived by their own ego to think that they are masters of biblical interpretation.

I consult the writings of learned men often. Why? Because as smart as I may think I am, I am really not. I am a finite person. I sometimes need to read a different opinion on a passage. When I reference the 1689 Second London Baptist Confession of Faith I am encouraged that my understanding of scripture is not alone. There are others who have gone before me and done much of the theological heavy lifting. That is the value of creeds, confessions, commentaries, and other thoughtful opinions of men. The alternative is a church full of people with their own private interpretations. That is a recipe for chaos.

 

[Bronconagurski]

That is where you are wrong. A Christian has the Holy Spirit in him or her as a given. Therefore, any Christian reading the Bible is illuminated. You present a totally wrong argument. God uses men to preach yes, but men are flawed, and a creed document, such as the Apostles Creed that infects entire denominations, is to be nice about it, a secular document.

Everything in the Bible is about living the Christian life, especially the letters of Paul, therefore understanding Christianity. It is not going to church once a week, it is a 24/7 deal.

If you support creeds to worship the Lord, join the Catholic church.

Everyone does have the Holy Spirit, but everyone is not good about trying the spirits and seeing if something is really coming from God. Satan'a greatest feats are not in the bars, they are in the church. False doctrine, causing division, etc. Divison is inevitable between Christians and non-Christians as Jesus said as much in Matthew 10: 34, but division in churches is sometimes the work of the flesh and Satan.
Men of past faithfulness in the church have written some solid theological documents, don't be so quick to dismiss them. After all, when Paul wrote his epistles, they were not canonized yet, but the writing of an apostle, which should and did hold weight. In other words they weren't part of the bible yet. Given your disdain for the writings of men, I wonder had you been there that you might have dismissed them, especially if you were doing the things he wrote to correct. Just a thought. I understand the writings of theologians are not inspired, but the Holy Spirit has used some in my life to help illuminate scripture. If we did not have any background to the bible to put into proper context, then it would be much more difficult to fully understand where the writers were coming from. I also understand that I dismiss some things theologians write as they are more opinion that dogma. I am spiritual enough to understand the difference. We are told to hide the word of God in our heart that we might not sin against God. Creeds and doctrines that come from the word of God are worth hiding in our hearts as well, don't you think?

 

[saturneptune]

Everyone does have the Holy Spirit, but everyone is not good about trying the spirits and seeing if something is really coming from God. Satan'a greatest feats are not in the bars, they are in the church. False doctrine, causing division, etc. Divison is inevitable between Christians and non-Christians as Jesus said as much in Matthew 10: 34, but division in churches is sometimes the work of the flesh and Satan.
Men of past faithfulness in the church have written some solid theological documents, don't be so quick to dismiss them. After all, when Paul wrote his epistles, they were not canonized yet, but the writing of an apostle, which should and did hold weight. In other words they weren't part of the bible yet. Given your disdain for the writings of men, I wonder had you been there that you might have dismissed them, especially if you were doing the things he wrote to correct. Just a thought. I understand the writings of theologians are not inspired, but the Holy Spirit has used some in my life to help illuminate scripture. If we did not have any background to the bible to put into proper context, then it would be much more difficult to fully understand where the writers were coming from. I also understand that I dismiss some things theologians write as they are more opinion that dogma. I am spiritual enough to understand the difference. We are told to hide the word of God in our heart that we might not sin against God. Creeds and doctrines that come from the word of God are worth hiding in our hearts as well, don't you think?

First of all, I want to apologize for the sharp response earlier. There is a certain poster, not you, that rings every chime that I have. Maybe you noticed I deleted a number of my responses. Let me give you an example of what I am talking about. I was a member of a PCA (Presbyterian Church of America), a moderately conservative denomination for 25 years. We said the Apostles Creed every Sunday. First of all, most said it out of memory, not giving the words a second thought. Certain phrases are not valid IMO. The phrase, I believe in "the holy catholic church" suggests a universal church. Here, in this life, the universal church means nothing. It is not an organization that carries out the work of the Lord. They never sent out a missionary, administered a baptism or the Lord's Supper, helped the poor or the sick, took up an offering, held a worship service that praised the Lord, or took up an offering. The universal church only has significance in eternity. Next, the creed says I believe "in the communion of saints." This is not a belief. Christians naturally want to be we other Christians. The rest of the creed can be found in various parts of Scripture.

Another point you made is that not every Christian sees the work of the Holy Spirit. That may be so, but they ought to. The use of creeds is up to the local church. At least we have that standard and it is not mandated across our denomination, as we are local autonomous churches. I hope this makes my position clearer in a more civil manner.

I agree that Satan's greatest feats are in the churches. The RCC is a good example, with all the ceremony that means nothing, such as transsubtitution, rosary beads, holy water, and their method for confession of sins. They thrive on creeds, and some of the Protestant churches keep them.

 

[DHK]

I am not sure why the puritans or reformers are problematic?

I have seem some quotes by wesley that were good, but Not as sharp as the puritans.I would not mention Dave Hunt with any of those men, based on the small sampling of his ideas.

"But not as sharp as the Puritans."
"I would not mention Dave Hunt."

It shows your bias. It shows that you already are looking at Scripture through rose-colored eyes before you even begin your study. Things, looked at in that way, can only be interpreted one way. And in that way your mind forever remains closed.

 

[psalms109:31]

The glory that is spoken of in these scripture has to do with eternal glory. Example: A christian might say, i am going to glory when i die.

That is my point exactly.

It is a shame to make someone feel guilty or ashamed for doing things for the glory to come given God through Jesus Christ the glory and say they are working or earning their way to heaven. It is a shame to stop what God is doing through us for the bad apples. It is not God alone but we are fellow workers.

1 Corinthians 3 :
5 What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, even as the Lord gave opportunity to each one. 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth. 7 So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth. 8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will receive his own [Or wages]reward according to his own labor. 9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s [Or cultivated land]field, God’s building.