Thanks, the British are really pompous in that they don't have a dog in this Vincente Fox hunt!
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Living With Illegals?
- Thread starter KenH
- Start date
LoveThyNeighbour
New Member
Come on give us a break. I can hardly be blamed for the crimes of the British Empire no more than a southerner can for slavery - no fair!
"all we have done is suffered these people"
'these people' as you put it, are part of of same human race as you and I.
I hardly call cleaning toilets 6 days a week, for sub-minimum wage, the US "sufferin" them.
Since biblical israel defended itself and its border, yet showed love to the immigrants, why cant modern nations do that.
Find me the bible passage that God says, "sorry guys i only meant for ancient israel to love aliens and allow them economic oppurtunities - not you modern-nation states - sorry for that ambiguity"
"all we have done is suffered these people"
'these people' as you put it, are part of of same human race as you and I.
I hardly call cleaning toilets 6 days a week, for sub-minimum wage, the US "sufferin" them.
i'm sorry i cannot agree with that. Modern state or not, nations can defend themselves (nobody is saying they can't). Pre-modern nation state ISRAEL, defended itself both defensively and pre-emptively from evil doers. The US does that and that is fine.
Since biblical israel defended itself and its border, yet showed love to the immigrants, why cant modern nations do that.
Find me the bible passage that God says, "sorry guys i only meant for ancient israel to love aliens and allow them economic oppurtunities - not you modern-nation states - sorry for that ambiguity"
And do you know why the lazy (your inference) Americans "won't do" those jobs? Because they are wages paid under the table from which no taxes or Social Security are withheld. Let American citizens try being paid "under the table" and we'd have the Federal IRS knocking on our doors, confiscating everything we own, and throwing us in jail for tax evasion.
It is about his best chance for approval, Daisy.
It seems that the British are not sending money to Old Mexico in order to keep Mexicans at home where so many of them would like to be.
But what does an Englishman have to say about the internal matters of the USA?
You threw us out because you had your chance and you did to us what Mexico is doing to Mexicans today. So you really have nothing to do with us on internal matters. As for slavery, it was the British who established it in the colonies.
But what does an Englishman have to say about the internal matters of the USA?
You threw us out because you had your chance and you did to us what Mexico is doing to Mexicans today. So you really have nothing to do with us on internal matters. As for slavery, it was the British who established it in the colonies.
SeekingTruth
Member
Neighbor, since you are so adamant that these criminals be welcomed with open arms, why don't you start a movement in Britain to have the government send ships here to carry all of them back to Britain where they can live, pay no taxes but receive the fruits of everyone elses labor through the welfare system of Britain.
I challenge you to show me a passage of scripture that encourages Christians to ignore the laws of the land. Illegal immigrants are just that. They are illegal. What part of that word is so hard to understand? I strongly urge you to study the Bible more fully, and quit searching for a particular verse to try to sustain your personal view.
I have sympathy for legal immigrants who come here for a better life, who work hard, learn the language, pay taxes and "gasp" obey the law. But, my sympathy stops when they enter the nation illegaly.
I challenge you to show me a passage of scripture that encourages Christians to ignore the laws of the land. Illegal immigrants are just that. They are illegal. What part of that word is so hard to understand? I strongly urge you to study the Bible more fully, and quit searching for a particular verse to try to sustain your personal view.
I have sympathy for legal immigrants who come here for a better life, who work hard, learn the language, pay taxes and "gasp" obey the law. But, my sympathy stops when they enter the nation illegaly.
LoveThyNeighbour
New Member
i still think the OT is pretty important and like to heed its teachings, there's a fundamental difference between the ritualistic teachings which were applicable to the old covenant only and the moral teachings which are universal
e.g. only the OT forbids "men wearing that which pertaineth unto a woman" - just cause the NT dosn't mention it dsosn't mean its irrelevant.
Plus i'm not saying illegal immigration is a good thing, but since 20 million illegals are there - many with settled familys - repatriating them seems harldy biblical.
Whilst yes they have broken the law, so should be fined and pay back taxes (as the Guestworker program seeks to do), but they are not 'evil' criminals in the sence that a burglar is.
The motivation for their crime was not one of malice, rather desperation. Put yourself in their shoes
-->i know if i was living in Mexico, with a wife and kids living in absolute poverty, and i wanted to work hard and make a better home for my children - but couldn't get a legal visa (because not many are handed out, and the process is v. slow) - i might think twice in a state of desperation about crossing that border.
i guess the NT command "do unto others as you would have done to you" kinda comes into play. I think its too dispropotionate to uproot millions of family and children, by repatriating them... the Specter's guestworker program seems more compassionate
PS. CMG and LadyEagle - i agree the British Empire did horrendous things in the past(including exporting slavery) - and i am ashamed of the British Empire. So sorry. Plus sorry for the secularization of Britain. Our abortion law is indeed a crime against humanity!
PPS. the thing that i admire about the US is its history of tolerance and immigration. Such a noble tradition is indeed righteous. Which is why such a rich tradiotn of love and compassion must continue.
e.g. only the OT forbids "men wearing that which pertaineth unto a woman" - just cause the NT dosn't mention it dsosn't mean its irrelevant.
Plus i'm not saying illegal immigration is a good thing, but since 20 million illegals are there - many with settled familys - repatriating them seems harldy biblical.
Whilst yes they have broken the law, so should be fined and pay back taxes (as the Guestworker program seeks to do), but they are not 'evil' criminals in the sence that a burglar is.
The motivation for their crime was not one of malice, rather desperation. Put yourself in their shoes
-->i know if i was living in Mexico, with a wife and kids living in absolute poverty, and i wanted to work hard and make a better home for my children - but couldn't get a legal visa (because not many are handed out, and the process is v. slow) - i might think twice in a state of desperation about crossing that border.
i guess the NT command "do unto others as you would have done to you" kinda comes into play. I think its too dispropotionate to uproot millions of family and children, by repatriating them... the Specter's guestworker program seems more compassionate
PS. CMG and LadyEagle - i agree the British Empire did horrendous things in the past(including exporting slavery) - and i am ashamed of the British Empire. So sorry. Plus sorry for the secularization of Britain. Our abortion law is indeed a crime against humanity!
PPS. the thing that i admire about the US is its history of tolerance and immigration. Such a noble tradition is indeed righteous. Which is why such a rich tradiotn of love and compassion must continue.
LoveThyNeighbour
New Member
"fruits of everyone elses labor through the welfare system"
sorry i have to just but in and say... the vast majority don't recive welfare in cash payments- some however recive in kind benefits like healthcare.
Yes that is problematic, but what's the alternative - they get paid less than the minumum wage so can't afford healthcare- would you rather the US jsut lets them die if ther are ill?
sorry i have to just but in and say... the vast majority don't recive welfare in cash payments- some however recive in kind benefits like healthcare.
Yes that is problematic, but what's the alternative - they get paid less than the minumum wage so can't afford healthcare- would you rather the US jsut lets them die if ther are ill?
Ours is, as well.
I think LTN, if you carefully read through these posts, you'll find that most of the anger on this issue is about our elected officials and their apathy to do the will of the people who elected them. Now they are caving in to the special interests (protest marches) of people who aren't even in this country legally!
I also believe that once you are posting here for awhile, you'll see that most of the people on here are compassionate folk who DO care about the plight of the unfortunate, but who are tired of our elected officials (big government) giving entitlements to people who don't pay their fair share of taxes like everyone else. Americans have always had big hearts and we continue to have big hearts and compassion. Probably if you took a poll, you'd find most of us on here give not only to our local churches, but we support City Missions, and other charities and benevolence programs, as well.
It's just that a lot of us are frustrated because the system is so corrupt and we feel powerless to do anything to change it. Yet, we keep trying and keep hoping that if we make enough noise, our elected officials will wake up.
LoveThyNeighbour
New Member
I'm sorry if i gave the impression that i thought you guys weren't compassionate. I've never doubted that, unfortunately though too many europeans have warped views about US evangelicals and think they aren't.
I guess the problem is Europeans tend to think of welfare for the poor as being a moral issue. They dont recognize the work US christians do for charity which mean such welfare isn't as neccessary.
I think europeans tend to think that social provisions and compassion, will never be deliverd in the same quanity if it is left just to the good will of inidividuals.
And i'm kinda of inclined to agree, i mean we live in a fallen world, with original sin, so is it really likely that we will be generous as we should be out of our good wil. Just like social issues, the govt. needs to set a moral framework - becasue left to our own devices we will sin e.g. anti-sodomy laws. Similarly left to our own device we won't give as much as we could to 'social' causes - so the govt needs to step in and make us do what the NT and OT command i.e.
THE ACTS, XX
35 I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.
I guess the problem is Europeans tend to think of welfare for the poor as being a moral issue. They dont recognize the work US christians do for charity which mean such welfare isn't as neccessary.
I think europeans tend to think that social provisions and compassion, will never be deliverd in the same quanity if it is left just to the good will of inidividuals.
And i'm kinda of inclined to agree, i mean we live in a fallen world, with original sin, so is it really likely that we will be generous as we should be out of our good wil. Just like social issues, the govt. needs to set a moral framework - becasue left to our own devices we will sin e.g. anti-sodomy laws. Similarly left to our own device we won't give as much as we could to 'social' causes - so the govt needs to step in and make us do what the NT and OT command i.e.
THE ACTS, XX
35 I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.
KenH
Well-Known Member
No way. State socialism is a terrible idea and leads to economic stagnation. We also have no desire to have a theocracy in this country. Is that what you want in your country? If so, you can have it. But don't try to impose one on America.
The government shouldn't try to be the church and the church shouldn't try to be the government.
[ March 29, 2006, 10:46 PM: Message edited by: KenH ]
LoveThyNeighbour
New Member
Wo.
i hate socialism - france has high double figure unemployment - i wouldn't wish that on anyone.
As for theocracy, definitely not.
You listed the extremes of my suggestion. it dosnt have to be like that - govts. can be concenred with broad christian values e.g. gay marriage, abortion - but still maintain a healthy separtion of church and state.
Ditto govt. social programs. In britain we have had record economic growth for the last 10 years, base-unemployment (on average lower than the US over the last decade) - but still have a minimal welfare state e.g. child poverty tax credits have lifted 800,000 children out of poverty in the last 5 years.
Theres a middle on all issues, - having a bit of social justice dosnt meen we have to slip into the economic backwardness (and inherent atheist evil) of socialism.
That tactic is what the ACLU do when they say a bit of family-values is gonna create theocracy!
i hate socialism - france has high double figure unemployment - i wouldn't wish that on anyone.
As for theocracy, definitely not.
You listed the extremes of my suggestion. it dosnt have to be like that - govts. can be concenred with broad christian values e.g. gay marriage, abortion - but still maintain a healthy separtion of church and state.
Ditto govt. social programs. In britain we have had record economic growth for the last 10 years, base-unemployment (on average lower than the US over the last decade) - but still have a minimal welfare state e.g. child poverty tax credits have lifted 800,000 children out of poverty in the last 5 years.
Theres a middle on all issues, - having a bit of social justice dosnt meen we have to slip into the economic backwardness (and inherent atheist evil) of socialism.
That tactic is what the ACLU do when they say a bit of family-values is gonna create theocracy!
LoveThyNeighbour
New Member
It's not a coincidence that in the scriptures, poverty is mentioned more than 2,100 times. It's not an accident. That's a lot of air time, 2,100 mentions. (You know, the only time Christ is judgmental is on the subject of the poor.)
Look seriously, i'm not a socialist (i study economics and politics at University - anyone who studys economics quickly realizes the stupidity of socialized politics). I'm a conservative evangelical, but I just happen to think that helping the poor is something that should be a govt. priority - in whatever form that serves that goal best - not necessearily left or right
e.g. Voucher schemes, faith-based initiatives are great - but much more can be done (e.g. opposing cuts to foodstamp programs)
2100 references says to me the issue is urgent
BTW - tax breaks and help targeted at the poor is hardly an example of "beggar thy neighbour" - quite the opposite, it rewards hardwork and educational programs provide them with the skills to esacpe poverty.
[ March 29, 2006, 11:47 PM: Message edited by: LoveThyNeighbour ]
Look seriously, i'm not a socialist (i study economics and politics at University - anyone who studys economics quickly realizes the stupidity of socialized politics). I'm a conservative evangelical, but I just happen to think that helping the poor is something that should be a govt. priority - in whatever form that serves that goal best - not necessearily left or right
e.g. Voucher schemes, faith-based initiatives are great - but much more can be done (e.g. opposing cuts to foodstamp programs)
2100 references says to me the issue is urgent
BTW - tax breaks and help targeted at the poor is hardly an example of "beggar thy neighbour" - quite the opposite, it rewards hardwork and educational programs provide them with the skills to esacpe poverty.
[ March 29, 2006, 11:47 PM: Message edited by: LoveThyNeighbour ]
Why does America have to fix everybody elses problems. If Mexicans want a society like we have here in America then they need to show some backbone instead of depending on America so much they will never be self-reliant unless they break away from their almost total dependence on America.