Lockdown is Nonsense at this point

[church mouse guy]

That is right we don’t. Because the flu is not as infective as covid19 (serology results suggest it is even more infective than previously thought) and doesn’t send as many people to hospital as covid19 that overwhelms health systems. That is the reason for the shutdowns, not the death rate as I have repeatedly stated over and over again on this forum.

You are a million miles from here. We have flattened the curve and tens of millions of people had this flu. It is time to go back to work. Who cares what Australia does or thinks?

 

[JonC]

The tests are not political but medical science and they are coming from both sides of the aisle anyway.

We did the right thing by shutting down because the Chinese Flu is highly contagious and we did not know what we were facing and we were not one bit prepared for a pandemic.

However, we now know that the Chinese Virus is mild and the death rate is the same as regular flu, more or less--many are now saying less fatal. So the lockdown needs to end since there is no longer a medical reason for it as we do not lockdown during normal flu season.

I don't know why you reject medical advancement as something that is being sold. There are more tests coming in daily so the flood of evidence should soon drown out those who think that a lockdown is necessary.

Taiwan had masks and I think that they have 6 deaths so far out of 25,000,000 people--best in the world by far.

I question that accuracy. COVID-19 deaths are similar in a way to the flu.

In the US we have 22,000 to 60,000 deaths due to the flu annually. In the US we have had 50,243 deaths in a quarter.

Yet you seem to suggest the flu is more deadly. Perhaps it would be if we did not have a vaccine. With COVID-19 we do not have a vaccine. That is a factor to consider as well.

I reject both conclusions because both rely on the unknown.

We're I to choose one, it would be the data rather than the hypothesis. The reason is you can stand on the data as we know it by qualifying it is what we have and may be problematic. It just seems foolish to adopt a wishful situation that may prove true as if it were fact.

Not long ago the same people were explaining how the concern was the virus' effect on the lungs. Turned out that was false.

I am going to hold off on my conclusions, take reasonable precautions and live my life. I am neither a doctor nor a scientist. In absence of a concrete conclusion I am content not to pretend to know the outcome. I understand others are not and just at least pretend to know. It is the same with theology (it is human nature) - we do not like the unknown. But I am good with it.

 

[Gold Dragon]

We're I to choose one, it would be the data rather than the hypothesis. The reason is you can stand on the data as we know it by qualifying it is what we have and may be problematic. It just seems foolish to adopt a wishful situation that may prove true as if it were fact.

It is refreshing to read something like this. Posting on this forum is sometimes like entering an alternative reality.

Not long ago the same people were explaining how the concern was the virus' effect on the lungs. Turned out that was false.

I'm curious what you mean by this. What was this effect on the lungs that was false? Covid19's impact is still primarily in the lungs even though it does have a lot of multisystem effects.

 

[JonC]

It is refreshing to read something like this. Posting on this forum is sometimes like entering an alternative reality.



I'm curious what you mean by this. What was this effect on the lungs that was false? Covid19's impact is still primarily in the lungs even though it does have a lot of multisystem effects.

I was thinking about an interview with a few doctors saying that they have seen damage to the heart as well as the video @InTheLight posted stating the virus akse can affect the heart and digestive system. One doctor stated he has never seen so many otherwise young healthy people suffering strokes (I do not know that this is not related to the virus' damage to the lungs, though).

My concern here is so many are obsessed with making the rates favorable they miss that almost 200,000 people have died in a few months. Dropping the mortality rate does not bring these people back to life. To me, that is the hard data.

 

[Gold Dragon]

I was thinking about an interview with a few doctors saying that they have seen damage to the heart as well as the video @InTheLight posted stating the virus akse can affect the heart and digestive system. One doctor stated he has never seen so many otherwise young healthy people suffering strokes (I do not know that this is not related to the virus' damage to the lungs, though).

@Deacon presented a video from a cardiologist that is for medical audiences. But it had a good illustration that I thought was helpful. My understanding is that basically the first half of the disease is primarily from the respiratory effects of the virus. However those who don't recover progress to a second half of the disease that involves a massive immune response (cytokine storm) that starts attacking many body systems. That is when you get the ARDS, heart attacks, kidney failure, strokes, blood clots. Basically multiorgan failure caused by our own immune system trying to nuke a virus it is losing a war against and hoping it doesn't nuke ourselves in the process.

See the diagram at 13:21 of this video. And then slide at 15:30 illustrates all the different systems that can be affected.

It looks like his illustrations comes from this very helpful Science article
How does coronavirus kill? Clinicians trace a ferocious rampage through the body, from brain to toes

My concern here is so many are obsessed with making the rates favorable they miss that almost 200,000 people have died in a few months. Dropping the mortality rate does not bring these people back to life. To me, that is the hard data.

The numbers are mind numbing. It is heartbreaking hearing stories of folks dying alone with an ICU nurse who is unable to physically comfort them being the last thing they experience. Or mass burials/funerals that nobody can attend in person to comfort each other. Two of my elderly relatives in california died suddenly late last year but looking back, it was a blessing it happened when it did.

 

[AustinC]

200,000 people dead out of 8 billion humans on the planet. That places the percentage at...
0.000025 percent of humans having presently died from COVID19.

Are those mind numbing numbers?

 

[InTheLight]

200,000 people dead out of 8 billion humans on the planet. That places the percentage at...
0.000025 percent of humans having presently died from COVID19.

Are those mind numbing numbers?

Another strawman. You really have a fascination with them.

The problem isn't the ratio of dead to the entire population of the earth. The problem is the highly infectious nature of the virus and it's potential to overwhelm our hospital system and health care workers.

But if you insist on using deaths as your metric, the number you should be focusing on is the total number of deaths in the short amount of time.

Deaths in the US of COVID-19

8 weeks ago: 0 deaths
7 weeks ago: 12 deaths
6 weeks ago: 41 deaths
5 weeks ago: 195 deaths
4 weeks ago: 1,195 deaths
3 weeks ago: 5,983 deaths
2 weeks ago: 16,684 deaths
1 week ago: 33,268 deaths
Right Now: 50,031 deaths

 

[AustinC]

Another strawman. You really have a fascination with them.

The problem isn't the ratio of dead to the entire population of the earth. The problem is the highly infectious nature of the virus and it's potential to overwhelm our hospital system and health care workers.

But if you insist on using deaths as your metric, the number you should be focusing on is the total number of deaths in the short amount of time.

Deaths in the US of COVID-19

8 weeks ago: 0 deaths
7 weeks ago: 12 deaths
6 weeks ago: 41 deaths
5 weeks ago: 195 deaths
4 weeks ago: 1,195 deaths
3 weeks ago: 5,983 deaths
2 weeks ago: 16,684 deaths
1 week ago: 33,268 deaths
Right Now: 50,031 deaths

Stay home if you are sick or vulnerable. Common sense.

But, it seems you prefer the government create ghettos for you and for the world.

Death happens all the time. It will happen to you and me. Are you intending to cower in your bunker until it finds you?

My faith says: Be strong and be courageous. Where oh death is your sting?

I provided the present percentage who are dead due to COVID19 on a global scale...and you call it a strawman.

 

[Yeshua1]

Agreed, enough is enough and yet, each day brings more restrictions. What gives? What is the real reason?

Dems want to expand big brother government, get in Green agenda, start civil war, and most of all have Trump booted out!

 

[Gold Dragon]

200,000 people dead out of 8 billion humans on the planet. That places the percentage at...
0.000025 percent of humans having presently died from COVID19.

Are those mind numbing numbers?

On February 25, 2 months ago there were 2763 confirmed deaths and 80,000 confirmed cases worldwide on worldometer. 2 months later we have 193,148 deaths and 2.7 million confirmed cases worldwide.

Russia, India, Africa and South America where a large chunk of that 8 billion live are just getting started with their covid19 experience. Many cases in those countries will get unreported because of lack of testing.

Causes of Death

In 4 months, 200,000 is already more than the number of people who died on the planet in the entire year of 2017 from war, alcohol, drugs or childbirth.

 

[Reformed1689]

Only partially true. Those claiming science on their side have been making unwarranted statements for whatever reasons. Their early failures make them less trustworthy. For example, why recommend face masks now, after pooh-poohing the idea early on?

Relying on China and the WHO have made them less trustworthy. Saying we know better now, after grossly endangering everyone and exacerbating the problem is a real problem. Not promoting early, extensive testing and studies ASAP is also causing part of the problem we see now.

Technically the mask guidance reasoning has not changed. It is true that healthy people do not need to wear the masks. The problem is they don't know who is healthy and who is not.

 

[church mouse guy]

I question that accuracy. COVID-19 deaths are similar in a way to the flu.

In the US we have 22,000 to 60,000 deaths due to the flu annually. In the US we have had 50,243 deaths in a quarter.

Yet you seem to suggest the flu is more deadly. Perhaps it would be if we did not have a vaccine. With COVID-19 we do not have a vaccine. That is a factor to consider as well.

I reject both conclusions because both rely on the unknown.

We're I to choose one, it would be the data rather than the hypothesis. The reason is you can stand on the data as we know it by qualifying it is what we have and may be problematic. It just seems foolish to adopt a wishful situation that may prove true as if it were fact.

Not long ago the same people were explaining how the concern was the virus' effect on the lungs. Turned out that was false.

I am going to hold off on my conclusions, take reasonable precautions and live my life. I am neither a doctor nor a scientist. In absence of a concrete conclusion I am content not to pretend to know the outcome. I understand others are not and just at least pretend to know. It is the same with theology (it is human nature) - we do not like the unknown. But I am good with it.

The only conservative medical opinion based on medical science was from Stanford University. The University of Southern California (where I visited once) would be a liberal university and they came up with the same results. Then there were results yesterday from New York state, an uber liberal state where the Governor said that conservatives are not welcome, that said the same thing. Then there are other studies, such as from Germany. So we have to conclude that liberals are saying that tens of millions of people have had this virus in the USA.

On what medical science basis do you question that Chinese Virus deaths are similar to a flu? Do you think that we have to wait until we have a vaccine before we can go back to work?

I guess that the rumor about lung damage was based on the fact that this new Chinese Virus has an element of Sars? Finally, are you saying that the data from NY and USC is hypothesis? I assume that you reject the studies from Stanford, which were published by the Hoover Institution?

 

[JonC]

The only conservative medical opinion based on medical science was from Stanford University. The University of Southern California (where I visited once) would be a liberal university and they came up with the same results. Then there were results yesterday from New York state, an uber liberal state where the Governor said that conservatives are not welcome, that said the same thing. Then there are other studies, such as from Germany. So we have to conclude that liberals are saying that tens of millions of people have had this virus in the USA.

On what medical science basis do you question that Chinese Virus deaths are similar to a flu? Do you think that we have to wait until we have a vaccine before we can go back to work?

I guess that the rumor about lung damage was based on the fact that this new Chinese Virus has an element of Sars? Finally, are you saying that the data from NY and USC is hypothesis? I assume that you reject the studies from Stanford, which were published by the Hoover Institution?

I do not know about Chinese Influenza or the Chinese Influenza virus.

I was talking about COVID and our flu.

 

[InTheLight]

But, it seems you prefer the government create ghettos for you and for the world.

I see you are learning to soften your strawmen so it doesn't sound so obvious.
[Of course I am not in favor of the government creating a ghetto for me.]

Death happens all the time. It will happen to you and me.

Que sera, sera,
Whatever will be, will be...

Are you intending to cower in your bunker until it finds you?

"Are you intending", oooh, I like that one. May I use it with my next strawman?
[Of course I am not cowering in a bunker.]

I provided the present percentage who are dead due to COVID19 on a global scale...and you call it a strawman.

It is a strawman, because no health care entity, no doctor, no epidemiologist, no government entity, no government leader is using that as a metric. You wield it as if it's an important statistic that should be paid attention to and argued against. But it's not. That is the very definition of a strawman.

 

[Revmitchell]

nope they arent. They have been using faulty modeling that has yet to be right.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

Technically the mask guidance reasoning has not changed. It is true that healthy people do not need to wear the masks. The problem is they don't know who is healthy and who is not.

Exactly, and that has always been true. The difference is in whether they advise them or not--that has changed even though the situation has not.

 

[Particular]

I see you are learning to soften your strawmen so it doesn't sound so obvious.
[Of course I am not in favor of the government creating a ghetto for me.]



Que sera, sera,
Whatever will be, will be...



"Are you intending", oooh, I like that one. May I use it with my next strawman?
[Of course I am not cowering in a bunker.]



It is a strawman, because no health care entity, no doctor, no epidemiologist, no government entity, no government leader is using that as a metric. You wield it as if it's an important statistic that should be paid attention to and argued against. But it's not. That is the very definition of a strawman.

Dear Scarecrow, the numbers do not lie.

 

[JonC]

200,000 people dead out of 8 billion humans on the planet. That places the percentage at...
0.000025 percent of humans having presently died from COVID19.

Are those mind numbing numbers?

Yes. 200,000 human beings added to the death toll in 8 weeks is mind numbing.

I am amazed so many who pay attention to far less deaths in human actions like the events of 9/11 or natural disasters like tornadoes find the deaths worthy of ignoring in our present situation.

We have become a very callous culture.

 

[tyndale1946]

Yes. 200,000 human beings added to the death toll in 8 weeks is mind numbing.

I am amazed so many who pay attention to far less deaths in human actions like the events of 9/11 or natural disasters like tornadoes find the deaths worthy of ignoring in our present situation.

We have become a very callous culture.

I hear what you are saying guys but I think these guys explain the situation better... Brother Glen

 

[JonC]

I hear what you are saying guys but I think these guys explain the situation better... Brother Glen