Looking At Luke 24:25-27

[JD731]

This passage records the words of Jesus to his disciple Cleopas and his unnamed disciple companion on the Emmaus Road on Sunday, the day of the resurrection of Jesus Christ. The hopes of the kingdom they had been preaching with Jesus for 3 plus years had gone away with his death in Jerusalem. Before they realized they were speaking with the Resurrected Jesus they expressed their disappointment and the finality of their hope through him in the following exchange.

17 And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad?

18 And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days?
19 And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:
20 And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.
21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.

The implication is that the death of Jesus ended their hope of redemption. He had taught them about a kingdom. Now we can be sure they were defining redemption in a national sense and not a personal sense. They knew nothing about a resurrection.

Let that slap you up side the head. Jesus Christ had been preaching along with these very disciples for over 3 years and here they are completely ignorant about the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ and what it means. The great apostle John would provide the following commentary about events earlier that day at the tomb, thus shedding light on this ignorance;

John 20 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.
2 Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him.
3 Peter therefore went forth, and that other disciple, and came to the sepulchre.
4 So they ran both together: and the other disciple did outrun Peter, and came first to the sepulchre.
5 And he stooping down, and looking in, saw the linen clothes lying; yet went he not in.
6 Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie,
7 And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.
8 Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed.

9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.

10 Then the disciples went away again unto their own home.

This a record of events as Jesus went to Jerusalem where he would be crucified
Mk 9:31 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.
32 But they understood not that saying, and were afraid to ask him.

I contend that the gospel that Jesus Christ preached to his own, Israel, at his first coming was not the gospel of the grace of God (which includes the gentiles in the kingdom) but rather the gospel of the kingdom and I contend the gospel of the kingdom is the good news, glad tidings that Christ came to begin the events leading to the inauguration of his earthly kingdom over the Jews only to suspend it because of their crucifixion of him.

I invite those who disagree to a discussion of this topic to explain your logic.

Matt 4:12 Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee;

17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

 

[Van]

I completely disagree that Chris did not come with the gospel of grace for all humanity.

And then He said to them, “You foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! “Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to come into His glory?” Then beginning with Moses and with all the Prophets, He explained to them the things written about Himself in all the Scriptures.

Here Jesus tells them they are not comprehending the spiritual truths taught in scripture. The issue between us presented in the OP is in our difference in apprehending the spiritual truths taught in scripture.

The truth presented in our passage is that Christ had to suffer and physically die to provide the sacrifice necessary to make people perfect, without any burden caused by sin. Their understanding of Isaiah 53 was non-existent. But here it is in the NT:

and He said to them, “So it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. Luke 24:46-47 NASB

 

[JD731]

@Van
Jesus Christ was not a bad teacher and he did not rebuke these disciples and call them fools because they understood the scriptures, it is because they should have understood them but didn't. The kingdom of God is a kingdom for saved Jews first. There is no other way for Jews to be saved except their sins be put away. I am not here at this time going to explain this to you except to say that Jesus had a conversation early on in his ministry with Nicodemas, a Pharisee, about entrance into this kingdom. He said these things.

Jn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see (perceive) the kingdom of God.
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Anybody, using common logic and reasoning, reading this, would have to consider that the kingdom would have to be established before anyone could enter into it and the only eligible citizens of this kingdom are those who are born again before entering into it. There is a structure given to us in the scriptures and people miss it because they read books about the Bible and do not believe the words of the scriptures. This is the problem that Jesus said his disciples were having. What if Jesus Christ called you a fool. It would not be a commendation.

With that in mind let us stop and reason some. If the prophecies of a kingdom of God on earth are all in a book that has been written by the people of one nation to the people of one nation in their book, would it not be reasonable to understand that his kingdom of God would be of this people. Especially so if God has not ever promised the kingdom to any other nation and made prophecies to them. Why can't common sense rule among Christendom?

You may research yourself and find that no gentile, who was not already a proselyte to the Jewish family, was ever saved before Cornelius in Acts 10. This would have been in 40 AD, a full ten years after Jesus died and rose from the dead. Peter, in Acts 11 when defending his initial evangelistic meeting with Cornelius when criticized by the other apostles in Jerusalem, claimed this event was the baptism of the Spirit when the Spirit was poured out from heaven in such abundance that all gentiles would be immersed and any one of us can now open our mouths and drink him in upon hearing this wonderful gospel.

What some people present as truth on these forms have nothing to do with what God has said. They have not understood the great wisdom of God in this age of forming his church from among the gentiles.

There is much to know and we can talk about it some. Thank you for responding.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

I invite those who disagree to a discussion of this topic to explain your logic.

How about I reference a couple of parts of the book
The High King of Heaven, by Dean Davis, free .pdf,
with 14 chapters of Bible logic?

Good stuff, if you are ever able to skim through a little bit of it.

Part 2: Understanding the Kingdom of God

5. The Good News of the Kingdom
6. The Beginning and the Kingdom
7. The Covenant and the Kingdom
8. The OT Promise of the Kingdom
9. The Coming of the Kingdom
10. Salvation History: A Journey to the Kingdom
11. These are the Keys!

Part 3: Understanding Old Testament Kingdom Prophecy

12. The Nature and Stages of the Kingdom in Old Testament Prophecy
13. New Testament Principles for Interpreting OT Kingdom Prophecy
14. NT Examples of Interpreting OT Kingdom Prophecy
15. OT Kingdom Prophecies Considered: Psalms, Isaiah, Jeremiah
16. OT Kingdom Prophecies Considered: Ezekiel
17. OT Kingdom Prophecies Considered: Daniel
18. OT Kingdom Prophecies Considered: Zechariah

 

[atpollard]

I contend that the gospel that Jesus Christ preached to his own, Israel, at his first coming was not the gospel of the grace of God (which includes the gentiles in the kingdom) but rather the gospel of the kingdom and I contend the gospel of the kingdom is the good news, glad tidings that Christ came to begin the events leading to the inauguration of his earthly kingdom over the Jews only to suspend it because of their crucifixion of him.

I invite those who disagree to a discussion of this topic to explain your logic.

I disagree, but am not going to invest a great deal of time into pointlessly defending a position (neither of us will change our minds on the message of Jesus). I will point out that “not getting it” is a basic human condition with a long and distinguished history.

Adam and Eve: God promised to make things right through the “seed” of the woman and they thought Abel, Cain and Seth would be it.

Abraham was promised an heir through Sarah: and offered to help God along with Ishmael.

Exodus: A generation witnessed the plagues on Egypt first hand, walked across the Red Sea on dry land, witnessed God drown the Egyptian Army, followed a pillar of smoke/fire across the wilderness and … died in that wilderness lacking faith in God to deliver to them the Promised Land.

JESUS: So for Jesus to come and explain everything, yet people not understand seems about “par” for this course.

 

[Van]

@Van
Jesus Christ was not a bad teacher and he did not rebuke these disciples and call them fools because they understood the scriptures, it is because they should have understood them but didn't. The kingdom of God is a kingdom for saved Jews first. There is no other way for Jews to be saved except their sins be put away. I am not here at this time going to explain this to you except to say that Jesus had a conversation early on in his ministry with Nicodemas, a Pharisee, about entrance into this kingdom. He said these things.

Jn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see (perceive) the kingdom of God.
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Anybody, using common logic and reasoning, reading this, would have to consider that the kingdom would have to be established before anyone could enter into it and the only eligible citizens of this kingdom are those who are born again before entering into it. There is a structure given to us in the scriptures and people miss it because they read books about the Bible and do not believe the words of the scriptures. This is the problem that Jesus said his disciples were having. What if Jesus Christ called you a fool. It would not be a commendation.

With that in mind let us stop and reason some. If the prophecies of a kingdom of God on earth are all in a book that has been written by the people of one nation to the people of one nation in their book, would it not be reasonable to understand that his kingdom of God would be of this people. Especially so if God has not ever promised the kingdom to any other nation and made prophecies to them. Why can't common sense rule among Christendom?

You may research yourself and find that no gentile, who was not already a proselyte to the Jewish family, was ever saved before Cornelius in Acts 10. This would have been in 40 AD, a full ten years after Jesus died and rose from the dead. Peter, in Acts 11 when defending his initial evangelistic meeting with Cornelius when criticized by the other apostles in Jerusalem, claimed this event was the baptism of the Spirit when the Spirit was poured out from heaven in such abundance that all gentiles would be immersed and any one of us can now open our mouths and drink him in upon hearing this wonderful gospel.

What some people present as truth on these forms have nothing to do with what God has said. They have not understood the great wisdom of God in this age of forming his church from among the gentiles.

There is much to know and we can talk about it some. Thank you for responding.

Hi JD731,
1) I did not say nor suggest Jesus was a bad teacher.
2) I did not say nor suggest Jesus called His disciples fools. He told them they had not comprehended the spiritual truths of His teaching.
3) Everyone is saved by having their sin burden removed by the washing of regeneration.
4) See or perceive is not the meaning, it is to co-mingle as in "see you doctor."
5) Born of water refers to our physical birth, born of the Spirit refers to our spiritual rebirth in Christ.
6) The spiritual realm of God existed before creation.
7) Again, the translation of fool misses the meaning of the verse.
8) The prophecies of the "Kingdom of God on Earth" refer to the Millennial Kingdom.
9) We enter the spiritual kingdom of God when we are transferred into Christ spiritually.
10) Proselytes are Gentiles, non-Jews.
11) No verse says or suggests all Gentiles "would be immersed."

​

Act 11:17 NASB ​

“Therefore, if God gave them the same gift as He also gave to us after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?​

​

I saw no response to Luke 24:47 indicating the gospel was for all nations. Bottom line: Luke 24:47 Net Bible footnote - 19sn To all nations. The same Greek term (τὰ ἔθνη, ta eqnh) may be translated “the Gentiles” or “the nations.” The hope of God in Christ was for all the nations from the beginning.

​

​

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

JESUS: So for Jesus to come and explain everything, yet people not understand

What if we read the Bible from the top > down, instead of from the bottom > up (filtering it through some 'system' structure found in it's study notes, first)?

"He has the Keys!"

"WE HAVE COME upon a closed door. Four of them, actually: the Kingdom of God, the proper Interpretation of Old Testament Kingdom Prophecy (OTKP), the Millennium, and the Consummation.

"There are locks, bolts, and bars everywhere. Confusion, contention, discouragement—even Theological despair—all stand guard like giants arrayed against us. How shall we ever enter in?

"I offer the single most important response to that crucial question. It is this: The only way we shall ever enter in is by recognizing that he—the Lord Jesus Christ—has the keys. No one in Heaven, on Earth, or under the Earth can open these three doors. God the Father has Ordained it so, having placed the Key of Knowledge on the Shoulder of His Only-Begotten Son. Accordingly, if the Lord Jesus Shuts, no one can open; and if He Opens, no one can shut. He, and He Alone, has the Keys (Isaiah 22:22, Luke 11:53, John 5:23. Rev. 3:7).

"I am persuaded that in their deep heart all Christians know this. They know that when Doctrinal push comes to shove, they must quickly turn back to the Master, humbling themselves at His feet. Why? Because this Man Speaks as one having Authority, and not like the speculators of the various Theological schools.

"Moreover, in turning quickly to Christ they are obeying the Word of the Father Himself, Who, having Descended in Glory to the Mount of Transfiguration, diverted the gaze of the trembling Disciples from Moses and Elijah, and fastened it upon the Luminous One, saying “This is My Beloved Son, in Whom I Am Well-Pleased: Listen to Him (Mt. 17:5)!”

"By the Spirit of Truth within, all God’s children know they should do this very thing. And yet we forget. Moreover, in the area of Eschatology, we have been badly forgetting for quite some time.

“No,” say our dispensational leaders (and their many followers), “Christ does not have the keys. Daniel does,and Ezekiel, and Zechariah, and John the Revelator. For centuries these keys have lain hidden in the deep caves of OT prophecy and apocalyptic, shrouded in mystery. Now, however, in the last of the last days, God has raised up anointed teachers, prophetic experts who can decipher the mysteries and open the books. A good thing, too! How else could we have discovered the true structure of Salvation History in Daniel 9? How else could we have learned to distinguish between God’s purposes for Israel and the Church? How could we have realized that the gospels and the epistles speak to a heavenly people, whereas OTKP and the Revelation speak to an earthly? How could we have understood the Jewish focus of the Olivet Discourse, or found the Rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4, or discovered that the real burden of the Revelation is to disclose the ministry of 144,000 Jewish evangelists during a seven year tribulation, evangelists who will proclaim the Gospel of Christ’s coming millennial reign?

"Brothers and sisters, I say it in Love: Such thinking is Spiritually disastrous. It is not disastrous simply because it is in error, or because it is a prescription for confusion and controversy.

"No, it is disastrous—and therefore a prescription for error and controversy—because it so egregiously dishonors Christ. How? By failing to accord to Him—and to the NT Truth that He so Graciously gave us—their rightful place at very Head of Divine Revelation.

"As a result of this, it scandalously abases the Divine Teacher Himself before the feet of worthy but infinitely lesser servants of God; mere precursors, who, in Old Testament times, spoke in portions, types, shadows, and dark sayings about things that Christ and His Apostles actually brought out into the full light of day; things into which the Prophets of Old—and the Angels as well—desired to look (1 Peter 1:11-12)!

"Our Master said that the least in the Kingdom of heaven is greater than any of “these” who preceded Him (Mt. 11:11). Yet we have not only insisted on making “these” greater than the least, but greater than the Master himself!

"So again, the all-important message is: Christ has the keys! He gives them to us in what I will call the Didactic New Testament (DNT). That is, He gives them to us in the Gospels, the book of Acts, and the Epistles—in those portions of the NT that clearly and explicitly teach us God’s definitive Truth on all things, including Eschatology. Here and here alone is where we learn how to understand the Kingdom of God, the Millennium, and the Consummation.

"NT Texts on Progressive Revelation:"

" Whether explicitly or implicitly, a great number of NT texts teach the idea of a Progressive Revelation of Divine Truth culminating in the Manifestation of Christ. We have seen, for example, how God, on the Mount of Transfiguration, directed the Apostles’ attention, not to Moses (who represented the Law) or to Elijah (who represented the Prophets), but to Christ. Why? Because Christ was in fact the secret Fountainhead of all OT Revelation (John 1:9), its hidden theme (Luke 24:27, John 5:39), and the One Who Fulfilled it in every particular (Mt. 17:1-12, Luke 9:28-36).

"How then shall the saints not “Listen to Him?” How shall they not turn, first and foremost, to the words of the Divine Son, Who, by Fulfilling OT Revelation, supplies the Indispensable Key for understanding it?

"Or again, we might consider Hebrews 1, where the writer declares: “God, having Spoken in time past to the fathers in many portions and in various ways by the Prophets, has in these last days Spoken to us by His Son, Whom He Appointed Heir of all things, through Whom also He Made the Worlds” (Heb. 1:1-2). Here we learn that in OT times God Spoke to the saints through the Prophets in many portions; that He gave them increments of His Truth through Inspired but mortal men.

"However, in these Last Days He has Spoken to us through His Son, Who is, among other things, the Divine Creator, Sustainer, Redeemer, and Heir of the Cosmos! And does this Son Speak like the Prophets of Old? Does He also speak in “portions” and increments? Surely not! For how shall He Who is very the Radiance of the Father’s Glory bring us anything less than the Radiance—the Full Outshining —of the Father’s Truth?

"We have Paul’s letter to the Colossians, where we find him passionately praying that God’s people may come to enjoy Spiritual strength and assurance through a True Knowledge of God’s Greatest “Mystery.”

"That Mystery is Christ Himself, “… in Whom are hidden all the Treasures of Wisdom and Knowledge” (Col. 2:3). It would be hard to say it more concisely or more powerfully: Christ—and the NT Scriptures that He was pleased to bestow upon His people—contain the Fullness of God’s Revealed Truth."

17 And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad?

21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel

This wasn't taught in the Word, so where did they come up with it?
And why would we fall for it again, when Jesus hasn't talked about it?
Jesus is going to redeem Israel? And Rule over them on Earth?

What would happened if we listened to Him about all that bright idea?

I thought that fig tree had been withered away, by Him?

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

I contend that the gospel that Jesus Christ preached to his own, Israel, at his first coming was not the gospel of the grace of God (which includes the gentiles in the kingdom) but rather the gospel of the kingdom and I contend the gospel of the kingdom is the good news, glad tidings that Christ came to begin the events leading to the inauguration of his earthly kingdom over the Jews only to suspend it because of their crucifixion of him.

Who, for example, ever said, "Christ came to begin the events leading to the inauguration of his earthly kingdom over the Jews",

or that a 'planned' earthly kingdom like that was something where He had to "suspend it because of their crucifixion of him"?

Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

With that in mind let us stop and reason some. If the prophecies of a kingdom of God on earth are all in a book that has been written by the people of one nation to the people of one nation in their book, would it not be reasonable to understand that his kingdom of God would be of this people.

And yet, if we died to what we consider "reasonable" using the reasoning in our mind, without the Aid of the Holy Spirit through His Word, where would find such a thing written that teaches us that the kingdom of God of "a people of a one nation"?

What if we Listened to Him, instead?

Especially so if God has not ever promised the kingdom to any other nation and made prophecies to them.

Where is this taught about the kingdom?

What some people present as truth on these forms have nothing to do with what God has said.

So, why would anyone take essentially everything the Bible mentions about the kingdom and delegate it to have any meaning ONLY SOMEWHERE OUT IN THE 'FUTURE'?

That is why "it is Written"?

Does Jesus or the other Old Testament or New Testament writers say that is what we are supposed to only be able to do with it?

They have not understood the great wisdom of God in this age of forming his church from among the gentiles.

Now, there is plenty taught about Jesus building the Perpetually Organized Organism of His churches, into which He first Placed the Jewish Disciples, but do we hear Him when He says the Jews and Gentiles become one in fellowship and purpose and Destiny there?

 

[atpollard]

What if we read the Bible from the top > down, instead of from the bottom > up (filtering it through some 'system' structure found in its study notes, first)?

… we discover the verses that explicitly state that the Apostles did not understand what Jesus was telling them about his death and resurrection both before and during those events. Only afterwards did they remember Jesus words and understand.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

What if we read the Bible from the top > down, instead of from the bottom > up (filtering it through some 'system' structure found in it's study notes, first)?

I was referring with this comment to the notes, etc., on 'Dispensationalism' at the bottom of the pages in Scofield's special Bible edition that would color our Bible understanding, if our approach was more or less to read the Bible starting with them at the bottom, before checking the scriptures in the upper part of the page, first.

… we discover the verses that explicitly state that the Apostles did not understand what Jesus was telling them

So, they certainly weren't the only ones with an natural carnal incapacity to discern Spiritual Realities, even though they had the Scriptures.

"And among those who heard this new system of doctrine we are now discussing, which was first brought to the vicinity of New York by a very gifted and godly man, Mr. Malachi Taylor, (one of the "Brethren") and was captivated by it (for truly there is some strange fascination inherent in it) was the late Dr. C. I. Scofield, who was so infatuated with it that he proceeded forthwith to bring out a new edition of the entire Bible, having for its distinctive feature that the peculiar doctrines of this new dispensationalism are woven into the very warp and woof thereof, in the form of notes, headings, sub headings and summaries.

"There is no doubt whatever that it is mainly to this cleverly executed work that dispensationalism owes its present vogue. For with out that aid it doubtless would be clearly seen by all who give close attention to the doctrine, that it is a humanly contrived system that has been imposed upon the Bible', and not a scheme of doctrine derived from it.

"A REVIVAL OF ANCIENT RABBINISM"

"Then as to what this modern system of teaching is, it will be a surprise to most of those who love the Lord Jesus Christ to learn that, in respect to the central and vitally important subject of the Kingdom of God, Twentieth Century Dispensationalism is practically identical with First Century Rabbinism.

Because the Cardinal Doctrine of the Jewish rabbis of Christ's day was that, according to the predictions of the Prophets of Israel, the purpose and result of the Messiah's Mission would be:

1.) the re-constituting of the Jewish nation;
2.) the re-occupation by them of the land of Palestine;
3.) the setting up again of the earthly throne of David;
4.) and the exaltation of the people of Israel to the place of supremacy in the World.

"Now, seeing that a doctrine is known by its fruits, let us recall what effect this doctrine concerning the Kingdom of God had upon the orthodox Jews who so earnestly believed it in that day. And in view of what it impelled those zealous men to do, let us ask ourselves if there is not grave reason to fear its effect upon the orthodox Christians who hold and zealously teach it in our day?

"The effect then was that, when Christ came to His own people, proclaiming that the Kingdom of God was at hand, but making it known that that Kingdom did not correspond at all to their idea of it; when He said, "My Kingdom is not of this world," and taught that, so far from being Jewish, it was of such sort that a man must be born of the Spirit in order to enter it, then they rejected Him ("received Him not") hated Him, betrayed Him and caused Him to be put to death.

"Now let it be carefully noted in this connection, that the Apostle Paul, referring to what had been done to Jesus by them "that dwelt at Jerusalem and their rulers," said that the reason for their murderous act was "because they knew Him not, nor yet the voices of the Prophets which are read every Sabbath Day"; and furthermore, that "they have fulfilled them in condemning Him" ( Acts 13:27).

"This plainly declares that it was because the Jewish teachers had misinterpreted the messages of the Prophets, that they were looking for the restoration of their national greatness, instead that which the Prophets had really foretold, a Spiritual Kingdom Ruled by "Jesus Christ of the seed of David raised from the dead" ( 2 Tim. 2 : 18).

"Have we not therefore, good reason to fear disastrous consequences from the fact that the teachers of the new dispensationalism say the Jewish rabbis were right in their interpretation of the prophecies, that the Kingdom foretold by the Prophets is an Earthly Kingdom of Jewish character, and that in fact Christ's Mission at that very time was to restore again the earthly Kingdom to Israel?

"And why then did He not do it? The answer the dispensationalists give to this crucial question is one of the strangest features of the whole system. They say, in effect, that Christ was ready to do it, and that He would have done it, but that when He "offered" them the very thing they were ardently expecting, they ( most inconsistently, it would appear) "refused the offer," whereupon it was "withdrawn" and the kingdom "postponed to a future dispensation."

"And when we ask for the citation of a single Scripture that mentions the alleged "offer," or its "refusal," or the alleged "withdrawal" and "postponement," not a reference is produced.

"And particularly, when we press the vital question, what, in case the offer had been accepted, would have become of the Cross of Calvary, and the Atonement for the sin of the World, the best answer we get is that in that event, "atonement would have been made some other way." Think of it "Some other way" than by the Cross!

"Now, in view of the above facts, I do most positively insist that, whatever the conclusion one may reach after an examination of the whole subject, there is to begin with, and because of the facts just stated, a very heavy "burden of proof" resting upon those who advocate this novel and radical system of teaching.

And specially insist that, as regards the doctrine of a future restoration of national Israel, with the accompaniment of supreme earthly greatness and dominion, there are two relevant facts that should receive our most serious attention:

First, that that doctrine was the very cornerstone of the creed of apostate Judaism in its last stage, and the prime cause of their rejection and crucifixion of Christ;

and Second, that it made its first appearance among Christians near the end of the nineteenth century.

(And 'Third', that the depiction of Jesus' Spiritual Reign from Heaven for "a thousand years", in Revelation 20:4, is actually God's Revelation to us that any idea about this Reign of His 'taking place on Earth' is eliminated, in its entirety, and has been merely an assumption made by silence and would have had to have been added to the text in direct violation of His Warnings).

"These facts may not settle anything; but certainly they do impose a heavy "burden of proof" upon those who now teach that the apostate Jews were right in their interpretation of the prophets ( whose "voices," the Apostle declares, "they knew not," Acts 13:27 ) and that Christian teachers and expositors for nineteen centuries were all wrong."

What happens if we "Hear ye Him!", as God the Father said,
and listen to what Jesus' Bible says?

"For the Kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but Righteousness, and Peace, and Joy in the Holy Ghost" Romans 14:17.

Jesus Knows His Bible.

From: chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.brethrenarchive.org/media/366159/mauro-philip-the-gospel-of-the-kingdom-with-an-examination-of-modern-dispensationalism.pdf

 

[JD731]

I disagree, but am not going to invest a great deal of time into pointlessly defending a position (neither of us will change our minds on the message of Jesus). I will point out that “not getting it” is a basic human condition with a long and distinguished history.

Adam and Eve: God promised to make things right through the “seed” of the woman and they thought Abel, Cain and Seth would be it.

God prepared a highway for the seed of the woman that would eventually go through Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob through whom he made eternal and national promises and would be prefigured by the shepherd king, David of the tribe of Judah, the lineage through whom the seed would come.
God gave dominion over all the earth to his "son," Adam Lk 3:38, who had it usurped by the serpent (Mt 4:1-7). The last Adam will reclaim it in the times of restitution of all things (Acts 3:21), which is yet future (Re 19).

I would liked for you to have commented on the conflicts these passages would cause in your theology if the words were taken literally.

 

[JD731]

@Van
Hi JD731,
1) I did not say nor suggest Jesus was a bad teacher.
2) I did not say nor suggest Jesus called His disciples fools. He told them they had not comprehended the spiritual truths of His teaching.
3) Everyone is saved by having their sin burden removed by the washing of regeneration.
4) See or perceive is not the meaning, it is to co-mingle as in "see you doctor."
5) Born of water refers to our physical birth, born of the Spirit refers to our spiritual rebirth in Christ.
6) The spiritual realm of God existed before creation.
7) Again, the translation of fool misses the meaning of the verse.
8) The prophecies of the "Kingdom of God on Earth" refer to the Millennial Kingdom.
9) We enter the spiritual kingdom of God when we are transferred into Christ spiritually.
10) Proselytes are Gentiles, non-Jews.
11) No verse says or suggests all Gentiles "would be immersed."

Act 11:17 NASB

“Therefore, if God gave them the same gift as He also gave to us after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?
I saw no response to Luke 24:47 indicating the gospel was for all nations. Bottom line: Luke 24:47 Net Bible footnote - 19sn To all nations. The same Greek term (τὰ ἔθνη, ta eqnh) may be translated “the Gentiles” or “the nations.” The hope of God in Christ was for all the nations from the beginning.

My overall reason for posting parts of this conversation with Cleopas and his companion was to raise the point that none of these apostles and prophets who Jesus chose to minister with him for his time on earth had any understanding of the necessity of the death, burial, and resurrection of Messiah in spite of the fact it was recorded in their prophets and visualized in their figures and types and they should have known it. He rebuked them for being poor students of the scriptures.

Now the death burial and resurrection had not been a subject of his preaching and Jesus personally taught nothing to his disciples about it. They could have known about it because of the scriptures they had. The ministry of Jesus was about the kingdom. His message to Israel is "the kingdom of heaven is at hand, repent and believe the gospel (of the kingdom). But Jesus Christ did not come to Israel to have them kill him, although they did kill him because they chose to.

There were two things that Israel must believe that are fundamental to being saved from their sins, and by extension, everyone, must understand them and embrace them by faith. John the apostle gives them here.

Joh 20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these (signs) are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

They must believe that Jesus is the virgin born son of God and the sinless Messiah who was promised by God to save them. Sinners will have to believe those things before God will save them. This is the reason that Jesus presented himself in the manner he did. This is the reason the kingdom gospel was first. Believers in Jesus at this time were justified by their faith in believing God, but they were not cleared of their sins.

The kingdom gospel was not annulled for Israel in Matthew 12. This gospel will still be preached and the kingdom established at another time, but the kingdom of heaven is "at hand" was suspended. Matthew 12 records events at the near end of the earthly ministry of Jesus Christ and he was in the meeting with the Jewish rulers where they decided to put him to death. These leaders controlled the heartstrings of most of Israel and it is easy to see if the nation will put him to death, it is dead sure he is dealing with an impossibility of establishing his kingdom if Israel must repent and believe those things I mentioned above first.

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Ex 34:5 And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD.
6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children s children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

But God is a God of the second chance and after the rulers put Jesus to death he was back calling on them to repent and receive the promise of the Holy Spirit, which is salvation and the clearance of sins, Christ having shed his blood on the cross and risen from the dead.

Lk 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

We know from history that the fig tree (the national symbol for Israel) was cut down and removed from the vineyard (Judah) in 70 AD by the Romans.

If the promise God makes to Abraham and David can be annulled by God, so can any promises he makes to you and me. But don't worry, God is keeping his covenant promises to both these men.

Heb 6:13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,
17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed [it] by an oath:
18 That by two immutable things, in which [it was] impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

Ps 89:27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.
29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.
34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me.
37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.

 

[Charlie24]

This passage records the words of Jesus to his disciple Cleopas and his unnamed disciple companion on the Emmaus Road on Sunday, the day of the resurrection of Jesus Christ. The hopes of the kingdom they had been preaching with Jesus for 3 plus years had gone away with his death in Jerusalem. Before they realized they were speaking with the Resurrected Jesus they expressed their disappointment and the finality of their hope through him in the following exchange.

17 And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad?

18 And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days?
19 And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:
20 And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.
21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.

The implication is that the death of Jesus ended their hope of redemption. He had taught them about a kingdom. Now we can be sure they were defining redemption in a national sense and not a personal sense. They knew nothing about a resurrection.

Let that slap you up side the head. Jesus Christ had been preaching along with these very disciples for over 3 years and here they are completely ignorant about the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ and what it means. The great apostle John would provide the following commentary about events earlier that day at the tomb, thus shedding light on this ignorance;

John 20 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.
2 Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him.
3 Peter therefore went forth, and that other disciple, and came to the sepulchre.
4 So they ran both together: and the other disciple did outrun Peter, and came first to the sepulchre.
5 And he stooping down, and looking in, saw the linen clothes lying; yet went he not in.
6 Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie,
7 And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.
8 Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed.

9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.

10 Then the disciples went away again unto their own home.

This a record of events as Jesus went to Jerusalem where he would be crucified
Mk 9:31 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.
32 But they understood not that saying, and were afraid to ask him.

I contend that the gospel that Jesus Christ preached to his own, Israel, at his first coming was not the gospel of the grace of God (which includes the gentiles in the kingdom) but rather the gospel of the kingdom and I contend the gospel of the kingdom is the good news, glad tidings that Christ came to begin the events leading to the inauguration of his earthly kingdom over the Jews only to suspend it because of their crucifixion of him.

I invite those who disagree to a discussion of this topic to explain your logic.

Matt 4:12 Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee;

17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

I have to disagree, but let me explain is a short summary. I do believe a book could easily be written on this topic.

Before the foundation of the world, before man was created, the Triune God knew Adam would fall in sin being given free will to choose his way. So before man did this and plunged all of mankind into a curse, the Triune God created a plan for man to escape his sin and live while still upholding the Law of Sin and Death given to Adam.

This plan is what believing man was predestined for to be conformed in the image of Christ. God's plan of Redemption.

When Christ came it had already been determined He would die for the sins of man, I believe Christ was sent at the time the Triune God knew He would be rejected, but not by decree, but by the free will of man to reject Christ.

The Gospel of the Kingdom that Christ and John the Baptist preached included repentance first and foremost. It is the same exact Gospel that the apostles preached, but had not taken place yet.

Christ came to prepare man for the New Covenant in repentance and faith in what He was about to do, which had been declared and symbolized in the sacrifice of an innocent animal as far back as the Garden of Eden, and later in the Sacrificial System of the Law of Moses. Christ was that sacrifice and He was now ready to be rejected and offered.

Christ was declaring the way of salvation for man to enter into the New Covenant, by repentance and faith in Him through the Gospel of the Kingdom.

There is no difference between the Jew and Gentile, all men are guilty before God and need a Savior.

 

[Van]

My overall reason for posting parts of this conversation with Cleopas and his companion was to raise the point that none of these apostles and prophets who Jesus chose to minister with him for his time on earth had any understanding of the necessity of the death, burial, and resurrection of Messiah in spite of the fact it was recorded in their prophets and visualized in their figures and types and they should have known it. He rebuked them for being poor students of the scriptures.

Now the death burial and resurrection had not been a subject of his preaching and Jesus personally taught nothing to his disciples about it. They could have known about it because of the scriptures they had. The ministry of Jesus was about the kingdom. His message to Israel is "the kingdom of heaven is at hand, repent and believe the gospel (of the kingdom). But Jesus Christ did not come to Israel to have them kill him, although they did kill him because they chose to.

There were two things that Israel must believe that are fundamental to being saved from their sins, and by extension, everyone, must understand them and embrace them by faith. John the apostle gives them here.

Joh 20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these (signs) are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

They must believe that Jesus is the virgin born son of God and the sinless Messiah who was promised by God to save them. Sinners will have to believe those things before God will save them. This is the reason that Jesus presented himself in the manner he did. This is the reason the kingdom gospel was first. Believers in Jesus at this time were justified by their faith in believing God, but they were not cleared of their sins.

The kingdom gospel was not annulled for Israel in Matthew 12. This gospel will still be preached and the kingdom established at another time, but the kingdom of heaven is "at hand" was suspended. Matthew 12 records events at the near end of the earthly ministry of Jesus Christ and he was in the meeting with the Jewish rulers where they decided to put him to death. These leaders controlled the heartstrings of most of Israel and it is easy to see if the nation will put him to death, it is dead sure he is dealing with an impossibility of establishing his kingdom if Israel must repent and believe those things I mentioned above first.

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Ex 34:5 And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD.
6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children s children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

But God is a God of the second chance and after the rulers put Jesus to death he was back calling on them to repent and receive the promise of the Holy Spirit, which is salvation and the clearance of sins, Christ having shed his blood on the cross and risen from the dead.

Lk 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

We know from history that the fig tree (the national symbol for Israel) was cut down and removed from the vineyard (Judah) in 70 AD by the Romans.

If the promise God makes to Abraham and David can be annulled by God, so can any promises he makes to you and me. But don't worry, God is keeping his covenant promises to both these men.

Heb 6:13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,
17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed [it] by an oath:
18 That by two immutable things, in which [it was] impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

Ps 89:27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.
29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.
34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me.
37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.

I think you should respond to my points.

1) Christ came with His gospel of grace for all humanity.
2) Christ did teach He would suffer and die to His disciples.

See Luke 24:46-47

 

[kyredneck]

his earthly kingdom over the Jews only to suspend it

Dispy fiction. His kingdom is now. It's a spiritual kingdom that can neither be seen with the eye nor touched with the hand.

1) Christ came with His gospel of grace for all humanity.

Matthew Chapter 15

24​	But he answered and said, I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew Chapter 10

5​	These twelve Jesus sent forth, and charged them, saying, Go not into any way of the Gentiles, and enter not into any city of the Samaritans:
6​	but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

 

[atpollard]

God prepared a highway for the seed of the woman that would eventually go through Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob through whom he made eternal and national promises and would be prefigured by the shepherd king, David of the tribe of Judah, the lineage through whom the seed would come.
God gave dominion over all the earth to his "son," Adam Lk 3:38, who had it usurped by the serpent (Mt 4:1-7). The last Adam will reclaim it in the times of restitution of all things (Acts 3:21), which is yet future (Re 19).

I would liked for you to have commented on the conflicts these passages would cause in your theology if the words were taken literally.

"Conflict" only arises when one places any weight on the named individuals or people ... who cannot support it. They are no more impressive than the rest of us. Abram, Isaac and Jacob were all liars, schemers and cheaters (just like us) who fathered an unfaithful (harlot) nation. Even the King "after God's heart" was an adulterer and murder (just like the people he governed played the harlot for foreign gods and murdered the prophets).

As Paul stated: "So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth." - 1 Co 3:7 [ESV]

God has always stood in the marketplace and the highway and called out to all to "come". God has always been the one to ACCOMPLISH that which God desires (reserved for himself a remnant, five thousand who have not bowed knee to Baal). So the confusion only comes when we think "the people" (any people) are what matters and forget that "only God gives the growth".

 

[Van]

Dispy fiction. His kingdom is now. It's a spiritual kingdom that can neither be seen with the eye nor touched with the hand.

Van said Christ came with His gospel of grace for all humanity.

Matthew Chapter 15

24​	But he answered and said, I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew Chapter 10

5​	These twelve Jesus sent forth, and charged them, saying, Go not into any way of the Gentiles, and enter not into any city of the Samaritans:
6​	but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Why do you post and not address Luke 24:46-47? I have already informed you that the house of Israel includes believing Gentiles. And that Christ first presented His gospel to the Jews, but then also to the Gentiles. Your fiction is unbiblical nonsense.

 

[kyredneck]

the house of Israel includes believing Gentiles

Maybe according to Vanology, but not in reality.

As The Prophet:

Matthew Chapter 15

24​	But he answered and said, I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew Chapter 10

5​	These twelve Jesus sent forth, and charged them, saying, Go not into any way of the Gentiles, and enter not into any city of the Samaritans:
6​	but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Romans Chapter 15

8​	For I say that Christ hath been made a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, that he might confirm the promises given unto the fathers,

Gill:
"...as a prophet, in the discharge of his own personal ministry, he was sent by his Father only to the Jews; he was the "minister of the circumcision"..."

 

[Van]

Maybe according to Vanology, but not in reality.

As The Prophet:

Matthew Chapter 15

24​	But he answered and said, I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew Chapter 10

5​	These twelve Jesus sent forth, and charged them, saying, Go not into any way of the Gentiles, and enter not into any city of the Samaritans:
6​	but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Romans Chapter 15

8​	For I say that Christ hath been made a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, that he might confirm the promises given unto the fathers,

Gill:
"...as a prophet, in the discharge of his own personal ministry, he was sent by his Father only to the Jews; he was the "minister of the circumcision"..."

Repeating gibberish is a standard ploy of deceivers. They deny Galatians Chapter 3 where God says Gentiles belong to the house of Israel as they become children of the promise with Abraham becoming their father.

And for the second post, they ignore Luke 26:46-47.

 

[kyredneck]

Repeating gibberish is a standard ploy of deceivers. They deny Galatians Chapter 3 where God says Gentiles belong to the house of Israel as they become children of the promise with Abraham becoming their father.

And for the second post, they ignore Luke 26:46-47.

I know this is way too deep and beyond the scope of Vanology, but why do you think Peter was ‘called onto the carpet’ in Acts 11 for going to the Gentiles?