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Lordship Salvation and children
- Thread starter Greektim
- Start date
jonathan.borland
Active Member
We do seem to be reverting closer and closer to pedobaptism unfortunately. I think the ages are drastically too young, even three and four in some cases. I think every step of faith should be encouraged and affirmed until the children are morally guilty and feel such, at which time true repentance and regeneration may occur. In essence and by definition, I think if a child is too young to be damned then he is too young to be saved.
practically speaking...there is not much difference at all in baptist and presbyterian homes with how they view their children.:thumbs:
The RCC teaches that salvation is a lifelong process and in the end one will find out whether or not they will make it. I know you believe in OSAS, but you are presenting something similar. You are presenting salvation as a lifelong process including salvation and no doubt glorification. Though the Bible may speak of the doctrine of soteriology in that sense, that is not the normal sense in which we speak of salvation.
When were you saved? I know when I was saved. I can give you the approximate time, and the date of when I trusted Christ as my Savior.
Salvation is found in the gospel, which I did not see in your post.
It is found in believing in the atoning work of Christ--the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ--what he did for us on the cross.
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."
--It is that simple.
When I believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, that is who He is: the Lord Jesus Christ. He is know other. I cannot make him Lord, neither can I be so deluded as to think that by my actions I can dethrone him from the right hand of God, so that He will no longer be Lord. I trusted him as Lord, and Lord he always will be, whether or not I disobedient. He is Lord! Period! He being Lord is not dependent upon me. God forbid if it would!
This is the nonsense of "Lordship salvation."
What is meant by those who preach "Lordship salvation" is a process of sanctification, holiness, and discipleship, all of which happens after salvation--which is an event, and not a process.
Jesus said: "He that forsakes not all that he has cannot be my disciple."
That is a command for discipleship, not salvation. And there is a difference. When the 3,000 were saved on the Day of Pentecost they didn't all leave everything they had. However they did start learning about Christ.
Acts 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
--This isn't a picture of salvation; but rather discipleship.
Greektim
Well-Known Member
I do not advocate a simple gospel. If it was simple, it wouldn't be foolish or scandalous. If it were simple, it wouldn't be the difficult path. If it were simple, it wouldn't be hard to enter the kingdom. These are all statements about the gospel.
Not to mention that the gospel entails so much, from Abraham's promise to the knowledge of God's glory to the redemption of creation. The gospel, nay, the Bible is a complex story. To simplify is to miss the grandeur of God's good news. I don't want people to know the bare minimum. I want them to know a comprehensive gospel the engages the hearers w/ all facets of the diamond of the gospel.
jonathan.borland
Active Member
Congrats, Timothy! I didn't yet know!
jonathan.borland
Active Member
Where? On one of Jupiter's moons?
The age factor is secondary to the approach to evangelism. There are many churches, and Christian youth organizations, that formulize a response to the Gospel. I was part of such an organization. The truth is that young children are easily influenced. I found that it was not terribly difficult to get a child to pray the sinner's prayer. This method of evangelism finds its roots in Charles Grandison Finney.
Finney advocated the use of what I term manipulative psychological evangelism. His egalitarianism suggested that the ends justified the means. Arbitrium cogit (force a decision) would be his credo, and the credo of those who still hold to his methodology.
Children can be converted, although it most likely will not be with their head bowed, hand raised, or any other formulaic actions. Conversion will be internal and evidenced by the development of their Christian character as they grow older and mature.
DHK,
Salvation is eternal and sanctification is as much a part of and result of grace as any other part of salvation.You cannot bring it up and fragment it.
I do not believe in OSAS.....I believe in the biblical teaching that is described as perserverance of the saints....
Sanctification and discipleship are all part of salvation. It is God's work from start to finish.
6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
This is perserverance of the Saviour working in us.....He is the Author,and finisher of our faith....Not just one moment in time...it is eternal.
I do not know why you struggle with this...{ I suspect it is more bad fruit of dispensational thought and approach to wrongly DIVIDE the truth}
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
I agree with you, and yes he's serious, as evidently so are others.
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve in his craftiness, your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity and the purity that is toward Christ. 2 Cor 11:3
The religion of Jesus Christ is as simple as it gets.
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Greektim
Well-Known Member
What translation was that???
2Co 11:3 But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ. ESV
And if the religion of Jesus was so simple, why would God need to quicken hearts to accept its truths??? That is contrary to total depravity.
Greektim
Well-Known Member
Thanks, dude! Our baby was 3 months old yesterday.
Our story of finally getting pregnant: http://timandlizdecker.blogspot.com/2012/08/miscarriage-adoption-and-pregnancy.html
That is what we end up with when we change the message for children thinking we need to bring it down to their level. I would point out you never see such a suggestion in the bible. The message is only received when the Spirit awakens the person regardless of age so there is no need and nor should any be given to water down the message. I serious doubt that anyone mentions repentance when dealing with children although I admitt that it is seldom heard by adults either today.
Mant times children hear just ask Jesus into your heart and that is the extent of what they hear. Such a teaching will not save without repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Such a teaching is another gospel.
Thomas Helwys
New Member
So, a child can't be saved unless old enough to be accountable for sin. Interesting. Seems to turn the teaching of Jesus upside down.
ASV. Check the parallels, it goes about half both ways:
http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/11-3.htm
Context should rule over ‘modern linguistics’ hands down. Text concerns dangers posed from ‘a different gospel’ from the very first heretics of the early Church, the JUDIAIZERS:
3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve in his craftiness, your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity and the purity that is toward Christ.
4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we did not preach, or if ye receive a different spirit, which ye did not receive, or a different gospel, which ye did not accept, ye do well to bear with him.
12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them that desire an occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, fashioning themselves into apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for even Satan fashioneth himself into an angel of light.
22 Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I. 2 Cor 11 ASV
Just as Paul warned earlier here:
2 Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the concision:
3 for we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God, and glory in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh: Phil. 3.
(Pretty SIMPLE definition of who the real Jews are there, don’t you think?)
As Paul warned Titus here:
9 holding to the faithful word which is according to the teaching, that he may be able to exhort in the sound doctrine, and to convict the gainsayers.
10 For there are many unruly men, vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision,
11 whose mouths must be stopped; men who overthrow whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre`s sake
13….that they may be sound in the faith,
14 not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men who turn away from the truth.
15 To the pure all things are pure: but to them that are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but both their mind and their conscience are defiled. Titus 1
8 Faithful is the saying, and concerning these things I desire that thou affirm confidently, to the end that they who have believed God may be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men:
9 but shun foolish questionings, and genealogies, and strifes, and fightings about law; for they are unprofitable and vain. Titus 3
(Notice the 'simplicity' of it, 'maintain good works but shun strife about the law')
And as Paul warned Timothy here:
3 As I exhorted thee to tarry at Ephesus, when I was going into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge certain men not to teach a different doctrine,
4 neither to give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questionings, rather than a dispensation of God which is in faith; so do I now.
5 But the end of the charge is love out of a pure heart and a good conscience and faith unfeigned:
6 from which things some having swerved have turned aside unto vain talking;
7 desiring to be teachers of the law, though they understand neither what they say, nor whereof they confidently affirm. 1 Tim 1
?????
The natural man cannot receive the things of the religion of Jesus Christ, it requires a supernatural birth from above to enable the brute to grasp the very, very simple concept of agape.
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You are correct in this.
we have ALL the spiritual blessings found in jesus, ewe have the HS, its just that we have to desire and act upon staying filled with the HS daily, and that we still ahve to choose to amke the decision to faithfully follow Chrsit moment by moment, for we still have that ole sin principle at work warring to try to keep us from following jesus as we should!
salavtion is the work of the Lord, as He grants the godly repentence, and the faith, and enables the sinner to turn to Chrsit and be saved!
i Hold to the biblical doctrine that all those the father gave to jesus will be kept by him, as the HS was sealed into the saved to make sure that we make it, as does the highpriest intervening for us confirm it!
Forver secured by the act of the Cross, and the triune God keeping me by his might, NOT based upon my behaviour or works!
You are equating 2 different things. The difficulty is in grasping the message due to love of sin and hardness of heart, not the message. The promises to Abraham are needed to be understood for salvation? Thats the first I heard that one. There are believers that dont understand those things. Salvation is through faith...not understanding all doctrines
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