Lordship Salvation? - Part Two

[Cutter]

"So when you are "given" your paycheck on payday you didn't earn that huh?"

I am not given a paycheck. I earn my paycheck. One is owed to me after I complete my work for the allocated period. If one is not rendered to me by the employer then one is at fault. Not the one that worked, but, rather the one that was indebted. Does this sound like our Lord? He paid my debt not because He was indebted to me, but because He loved me and wanted to finish the "work" that only He was able to do and obtain forgiveness on my behalf.

Jesus is the works of God.
17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
Notice, Eternal life spoken of as being given. Also, I have finished the work!!!

What is my responsibility?
John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Bottom line: The just shall live by faith.

 

[npetreley]

Poor JJ and KS company. Your worthless rubble is being exposed for what it is. Praise God.

6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Romans 6
22But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.
23For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This is obviously speaking of eternal death. Not physical death.

So, your works determine whether or not you're in the family of God, if that's what this passage is talking about.

 

[Hope of Glory]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say anymore. But, it is clear in Romans 6:23 that death means eternal death.

If "thanatos" means separation from God forever and ever and ever, it should be easy to back up with Scripture.

 

[Hope of Glory]

You know, you omitted a very important word in Romans 6:23: The wages of the sin is death.

It's wages. It's what you earn. For what? The sin. What is the sin?

Back it up with Scripture now! (Not that I expect it from you at this point.)

BTW, I like the verses you quote npetreley. It talks about grace. What is grace for?

Is so that we can serve [works] God acceptably. Heberws 12:28: "Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:"

Works are works are works, and grace has to do with works.

But, back to the subject, what is the sin?

 

[J. Jump]

I am not given a paycheck.

Yes you are. It is either handed to you or mailed to you. Your company gives you your paycheck. Something that is given can be earned. Now your paycheck is not a free gift, but it is given.

He paid my debt not because He was indebted to me, but because He loved me and wanted to finish the "work" that only He was able to do and obtain forgiveness on my behalf.

Now you are talking about two different subjects.

We will be given rewards for our works whether good or bad.

We can "receive" the free gift of everlasting life if we believe in the Substitutionary death and shed blood of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God on our behalf a sinner.

 

[J. Jump]

Poor JJ and KS company. Your worthless rubble is being exposed for what it is. Praise God.

I needed a good laugh to start my morning. :laugh:

 

[mmetts]

You know, you omitted a very important word in Romans 6:23: The wages of the sin is death.

It's wages. It's what you earn. For what? The sin. What is the sin?

Back it up with Scripture now! (Not that I expect it from you at this point.)

BTW, I like the verses you quote npetreley. It talks about grace. What is grace for?

Is so that we can serve [works] God acceptably. Heberws 12:28: "Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:"

Works are works are works, and grace has to do with works.

But, back to the subject, what is the sin?

"The" sin? I would like to mention that there are most likely theologians going to hell since they do not know the Lord. The Pharisees are a great example of this. We are grateful today for the LXX (Septuagint) and the many intellectual items that the Pharisees' knowledge of scriptures have brought us, but Jesus did warn them, "I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the very work that the Father has given me to finish, and which I am doing, testifies that the Father has sent me. And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life." NIV.

 

[Lou Martuneac]

May I ask

I have not been able to keep up with this thread, but this morning I may be seeing some quite disconcerting. May I ask:

Is someone here suggesting that a genuinely born again child of God could suffer some kind of judgment at the Hands of God once he departs this world?

Please advise,


LM

 

[J. Jump]

Is someone here suggesting that a genuinely born again child of God could suffer some kind of judgment at the Hands of God once he departs this world?

Lou judgment starts at the House of God. It is appointed to every man once to die and then judgment. We are going to stand before The Judge and we will be rewarded for what we have done in this body whether good or bad. God will not be mocked for you will reap what you sow. If you sow to the flesh you will reap corruption (doesn't sound like a good outcome to me), but if you sow to the Spirit you will reap eternal life.

Just another verse that ties in eternal life with works. Eternal life is the reward for sowing the right way. Does that sound like a free gift?

 

[mmetts]

Lou judgment starts at the House of God. It is appointed to every man once to die and then judgment. We are going to stand before The Judge and we will be rewarded for what we have done in this body whether good or bad. God will not be mocked for you will reap what you sow. If you sow to the flesh you will reap corruption (doesn't sound like a good outcome to me), but if you sow to the Spirit you will reap eternal life.

Just another verse that ties in eternal life with works. Eternal life is the reward for sowing the right way. Does that sound like a free gift?

While I am encouraged that someone has the courage to place such a strong emphasis on living for God, and accountability, I do think that justification by faith alone is better doctrine. I would differ from you J. Jump. Let me ask you: If a man lives his whole life in worldly lusts, and surrenders after hearing the gospel in a personal way that Jesus touches his heart, and then were to die the next day, you might say that man's faith would not get him into heaven since we are taking into consideration his works also? And further, it is crucial to look at Abram in the OT. He simply believed what the Lord said was true, and it was reckoned righteousness. Paul places a devastatingly strong emphasis (devastating to your doctrinal outlook) on this righteousness which was attributed to Abram prior to the covenant (Genesis 15:6, Genesis 17:2) and while he was uncircumcised. It had been said earlier that the just shall live by faith. Works is a fruit overall. You cannot preach salvation on fruit, you have to get to the heart of the matter. Faith. Also, I really like Mr. Martuneac's signature quote.

How is it, you are reconciling, and I do mean this respectfully to you, teachings of faith alone? There would have to be a lot in the Word to keep you busy with your works doctrine, no?

 

[Lou Martuneac]

Difficult Things

Lou judgment starts at the House of God. It is appointed to every man once to die and then judgment. We are going to stand before The Judge and we will be rewarded for what we have done in this body whether good or bad. God will not be mocked for you will reap what you sow. If you sow to the flesh you will reap corruption (doesn't sound like a good outcome to me), but if you sow to the Spirit you will reap eternal life.

Just another verse that ties in eternal life with works. Eternal life is the reward for sowing the right way. Does that sound like a free gift?

JJ:

I trust we are drawing a distinction between the Judgment Seat of Christ (JSoC) and the Great White Throne Judgement (GWT). Do you draw that distinction in your position?


Judgement Seat of Christ
"But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ," (Rom. 14:10)

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad," (2 Corinthians 5:10).

The Bible teaches that ONLY the redeemed/saved will appear at the Judgment Seat of Christ. It is not a place of punishment, the cross settled and appeased the wrath of God. The JSoC it a place of reward or loss of reward.


Great White Throne
"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them." (Rev. 20:11).

The unsaved dead are raised and appear at the GWT for final judgment. The saved will NOT stand before God in this judgment.

At my site In Defense of the Gospel is a link to Bob Shelton's Gospel Ministry. I am personally familiar with him. Shelton is arguably the most balanced and scholarly theologian on Eschatology.

I encourage everyone to buy and read his book, God’s Prophetic Blueprint. You may find Eschatology difficult and boring now, but not after you read Shelton’s book. He makes those difficult things understandable.

Kind regards,


LM

 

[EdSutton]

I have not been able to keep up with this thread, but this morning I may be seeing some quite disconcerting. May I ask:

Is someone here suggesting that a genuinely born again child of God could suffer some kind of judgment at the Hands of God once he departs this world?

Please advise,


LM

Of course! (Heb. 9:27) I've not been into commenting much, materially, in this thread, but certainly. The "bema", a.k.a. the judgment bar of God, and/or the judgment seat of Christ, for members of the body of Christ. And the O. T. believers, as well as the earliest N.T. believers who died (all from Abel forward to those of the church, the body of Christ, too, will likewise receive a judgment at the resurrection at beginning of the Millenium (Dan. 12: 1-3)

Not exactly sure where Enoch fits into this, though.

Ed

 

[J. Jump]

How is it, you are reconciling, and I do mean this respectfully to you, teachings of faith alone?

You are misreading what I am saying, which is not atypical in these discussions. We are talking about the gospel of the kingdom, which is life for the coming kingdom age which will last 1000 years.

Everlasting life which is a free gift to be received is received by grace alone through faith alone in the finished works of Jesus, the Lamb of God alone.

Hopefully that will clarify. Welcome to the discussion.

 

[J. Jump]

I trust we are drawing a distinction between the Judgment Seat of Christ (JSoC) and the Great White Throne Judgement (GWT). Do you draw that distinction in your position?

Yes there is a difference between the JSOC and the GWT. The JSOC is for the saved only. And it is a determination of entrance into the kingdom or exclusion from the kingdom.

 

[EdSutton]

Yes there is a difference between the JSOC and the GWT. The JSOC is for the saved only. And it is a determination of entrance into the kingdom or exclusion from the kingdom.

Chapter and verse??

On two parts.

First, that all believers ("the saved") appear before the "bema", as I believe this to be only the 'church' saints, and not the O.T. saints, as per my reply to Lou Martuneac, a couple of posts ago.

Second, where does it say that when we receive "the things done in the body" that is determining the "entrance into the kingdom or exclusion from the kingdom"?

And, BTW, speaking only for myself, I am fully aware of the many differences between the 'Bema' and the Great White Throne.

Ed

 

[mmetts]

We are talking about the gospel of the kingdom... Welcome to the discussion.

What's that? And thank you.

 

[J. Jump]

What's that? And thank you.

It is the message that was offered by Christ to the nation of Israel. It is what they rejected and was to be given to a new nation one that would produce the fruits of the kingdom.

This "new" nation is the one new man in Christ. It is the "saved" folks of today which are no longer Greek or Jew.

If you would like more indepth study on the gospel of the kingdom send me a PM and I would be more than happy to direct you to some resource material.

But basically this is the offer of a position within Christ's coming kingdom.

 

[mmetts]

It sounds as though you are saying that eternal life is given by Christ, by grace through faith.

I have 6 questions: (1) There are two judgments, the Great White Throne, and the Judgment Seat of Christ. Believer's stand before the JSoC, while unbeliever's stand before the GWT? I haven't studied eschatology yet, other than reading a few chapters of Grudem. (2) Now, the JSoC determines reward (of course this is for a simple outline and I'll be doing my own studies on the matter) for followers of Christ. When does this judgment take place? (3) And does a judgment of rewards really sound like a judgment? Not really a question. (4) And the millenial kingdom has precepts regarding who may enter it? (5) Does that mean that there will be some brothers who cannot enter the 1,000 year kingdom of Christ? (6) What exactly do these kingdom teachings teach?

 

[mmetts]

This "new" nation is the one new man in Christ. It is the "saved" folks of today which are no longer Greek or Jew.

So where do works enter? (Not sarcasm)