Lordship Salvation volume 2

You have stated this very well.....Ryrie is very solid...yet he missed it big time on this, because like others he was influenced by the false carnal christian heresy.:thumbs::thumbs::wavey:

 

But Timotheos just so you will know, I am not a calvinist.

Any arminian should have no problem with what I am saying.

At which statement have you identified me as a calvinist?

"To believe in Jesus Christ is impossible without the Holy Spirit"?

John 16

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;​

Notice He convicts the "world" of sin, not just the "elect".​

Arminans would say that those who repond positively to the reproval (some like the word "repent") become the elect while calvinists would say they are the elect.​

If we were not reproved/convicted of our sin we would not even know of our sin and need and would not have the spiritual sense to cry out for salvation. Therefore it is given to every man.​

The Holy Spirit (3rd person of the Trinity) is a gift from God sent by Jesus Christ to the world.​

John 1
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.​

Verse 12 Our part
verse 13 God's part.​

How is it that we came to be able to receive Him?​

I don't know. I don't care.
I was lost, helpless and hopeless.​

Now I am His and He is mine.​

Any arminian can confess that Jesus did it all.

BTW I'm not arminian either.

I have issues with both (which presumes only two sides), I am a mugwump.

HankD​

 

I deflect everything you say??? You were the one that completely ignored other statements I made, like my comment about Mark 8:34ff. All you did was give me a compliment about using context. However, that context refuted your premise about these presentations only being directed towards disciples. I also mentioned John 15:2 in relation to Matt. 7:15ff., but you never made a comment on that. Really? You are going to accuse me of deflecting "everything" you say??? Well back at you, mod.

I chose not to go down the road of Mark 10 further b/c it was a lost cause. The entire story is veiled in soteric language. But if you don't want to acknowledge any of that b/c it goes against your theology, then what should I do? Keep beating a dead horse???

My mentioning of Luke 14 and the "crowds in Lk 14 were already saved" was a conclusion of your own exegesis. You say that Jesus was speaking to people already saved, i.e. disciples. But the text says he was addressing the crowd along w/ his disciples. So I was basically giving the result of your logic, that the crow was already saved. Also, to say it is a non sequitor shows me you did not follow the logic of your own statements. I brought up Luke 14 for the same reason I brought up Mark 8, b/c you wanted proof that Jesus gave his evangelistic discipleship call to more than people who were already saved, i.e. crowds. I provided that. Then you call it a non-sequitor??????? I hope you don't wonder why I don't want to go down certain roads with you for too long. It is mind-numbing at times.

 

We here are ALL agreeing that when when gets saved by god, that we should be showing fruit /evidence of our new life in Him BUT

Think that big area of disagreement is just how much God requires of us to show, and just how fast to show it!

My contention on this is that we are indeed new creatures in Christ, that we all still have growing up on Christ to do, and some of us grow at different rates than others...

its NOT sinless perfection here, but it is that we will keep on growing, sometimes slower/faster, but we will desire to confess our sins and move on..

Christians do still sin, but we are the ones who confess/repent of that, and keep on going...

christian can drive themselves into the ditch by sinning, but the true believer will eventually find his way out, as he is under Lordship of Christ, regardless even IF he knows and practices all of what that means!

 

Hey John of Japan, you must have missed my post to you about Acts 10:36. Would you care to comment on its (what seems to me) clear implications for the LS concept in Acts?

 

Both saved/unsaved can live "in the mud' and both sin against God, at times might look like same kind of person even...

eventually though, the true child of God WILL come to his senses and be stirred by God to be convicted back to fellowship with the father...

one has a season of disobedience but comes back to the fold, while the sinner keeps on disobeying all life long!

problem is if we take a snapshot at a certain period of time, both look like neither was saved, but one comes back to God, while other stayed away!

 

I assume you are referring to the false teaching of backsliding which is not biblical in regards to a believer. No the saved cannot live in the mud as you put it. They may need their feet washed off at the end of the day but living in the mud is what the lost do not a believer.
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Whosoever is born of God doth not (practice) commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot (practice) sin, because he is born of God.

 

However the "prodigal son" (take the words literally--"prodigal" + "son") found himself wallowing in the MUD eating the husks of corn along with the pigs. Backslidden??? I would say so.

 

Pulled out of context??? You just complimented me for keeping it in context. Do you read what you say??? And what part about "he called the people unto him" is difficult to understand. The "people" are different from "his disciples" which were also part of the group. But the grammar point to the conversation directed from Jesus to the crowd. Why would he address his disciples, they were already following him???

Clearly your "great detail" and "a lot of time" is way different in my book. While you made one point (over and over again) about v. 15 being about false teachers (and I'll grant the point), I did make the point that the parallel comment is found in John 15:2. This you never touched. Bearing fruit is not an option, it is a necessity. It is the validating proof of one's belief.

You neglect to quote the other salfivic language Jesus used: "have treasure in heaven", "get into the reign (or kingdom) of God" 3x's, "who can be saved?", "all things (even impossible things) are possible with God." The disciples understood that Jesus was giving an evangelistic call. Thus their question, "who can be saved?"

Before my testimony, let me comment that I do not believe the qualification to sell everything is a demand on ever disciple. It wasn't for Zacheus, it wasn't for Peter and the sons of Zebedee. But it is the standard to forsake all and follow Jesus.

Recently, my wife and I had a humongous yard sale. We sold a lot of stuff, gave a lot of stuff away to family (wife's parents house burnt down), and moved to Honduras. I still have a few possessions in the States, but not much. And they could go at any time. But while I am here, I am making a very small salary and give much of that to the locals who are below the poverty line. I just paid $120 for a kid to build me a dog house for my guard dog. I got overcharged, but he needed the money. My maid gets mad bonuses (it is part of the culture to have a maid so don't knock it, it supports their economy).

I am not bragging. Because I know that were it not for God's interceding grace, I would be back in the states where both my wife and I would have fat-daddy jobs teaching. We gave up a combined income of $70,000 plus benefits plus free college tuition for our children (whenever the Lord provides that as well). And it was not me but God through me. And I have never been happier. To reiterate... this is not false piety. You asked... I answered.

You wrote off Mark 8, Lk 14, Jn 15 and Acts 10 (though that was directed to someone else specifically, it still makes my point). You claimed that Jesus only called his disciples to radical obedience. But that was his message to the crowd in general. And I agree, he wanted to weed out the true followers from the fake. Because Jesus did not want converts, he wants disciples. He says say in Matt. 28, a much neglected passage in this debate. Sadly, non LSers will use this as the great commission and in the same breath preach an easy believism gospel. But Jesus wanted his disciples message to mirror his, thus the verbage is the same. Make disciples as I have made you disciples.

 

I didn't mean to burst your bubble so to speak. I complimented you in the respect that you didn't give a number of verses Washer-style, one after another, with absolutely no context, but at least tried to give some context. It wasn't much, but it was more than Washer et. al. gives.
"The people are different than his disciples," you say. So they are. What does the verse say again?

And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. (Mark 8:34)
For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Mark 8:36)
Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels. (Mark 8:38)

1. Jesus was speaking to an adulterous and sinful generation in general--the same generation that sought after a sign, but no sign would be given unto them but the sign of Jonah.
2. But more directly and selectively he was speaking to his disciples. He was giving principles of discipleship. There is nothing here on salvation. There is much on discipleship. The plan of salvation is not given. There is no "John 3:16" teaching here; no salvation teaching here. It is the tough teaching that a mature disciple must accept. It is meat not milk. (1Cor.3:1-4).

Most of Mat.7 speaks of false teachers and false teaching. The teaching of the teachers is the fruit. That is the context of the passage. Fruit means different things in different contexts. The context gives the meaning.
John 15:2 the fruit is not teaching.
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. (John 15:2)
--This passage is totally unrelated to Mat.7:15-20. The fruit in John 15 is spiritual fruit--the fruit of the Spirit, and possibly the fruit of souls coming to Christ. It has nothing to do with the false teaching of Mat.7. Neither does it have anything to do with salvation directly, but rather with a relationship of a believer to Christ. "He that abides in me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit, for without me you are nothing." Where there is a relationship there will be fruit. That is not salvation.

There reference was to rich men and in direct relation to Jesus' statement:
It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
--This is what Jesus said, and they were astonished, so much so that they reacted thusly:
And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved? (Mark 10:25-26)
--Jesus is right. Rich people do not often get saved. They would rather trust in their riches. The disciples were astonished at that saying, and thus they blurted out "who can be saved!" meaning among the rich "who can be saved?" Take it in its context.

I know you are not bragging, and I appreciate your candor. It is refreshing to hear a testimony like that. Ours is very similar. When the Lord called us to the foreign mission field we basically sold all that we had at a garage sale, used that money for travel on deputation, and then left for a third world Islamic nation that I can't tell you on the internet.
However, if you had asked me to do that the day I was saved I would have said you were crazy. It took growth, preparation. It took Bible College and seminary. I got married. There was much that happened before the Lord called me to the mission field. Only when I was ready and prepared to go did the Lord call me. He doesn't call babes in Christ to do the work of an adult. But LS advocates teach that they do.

The Lord never asks a child to do the work of an adult.

The Great Commission is a good place to start.
1. Go and make disciples. The first part is to go and teach so that they may be saved, and then disciple them to the extent that they may be ready to be baptized.
2. Baptize them.
3. Teach them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you--in other words--disciple them. This is where the commands on discipleship come in. Not before salvation, but after, even after baptism. Most LS advocates end up making salvation into a works-based salvation. They put the cart before the horse.

When I got saved I simply believed that Christ died for me personally and that he would forgive my sins if I simply trusted him as my Saviour. It was a simple message that I had never heard in the 20 years I had spent in the Catholic church.

 

My problem with the "simple message" concept is that the gospel is comprehensive and not simple. Certainly, small components are easy, but the overall message of the gospel throughout the entire Bible is not simple. It is far reaching and wide ranging. The fact that there is so much division on the gospel should demonstrate its comprehensive nature. Rarely do I hear in a gospel presentation Gen. 12:3 or Isa. 52:7. But those 2 passages are enormously huge aspects of the gospel. I would argue that a person can't understand 1 Cor. 15 properly w/out understanding other passages like Mk 1:14-15 and Gal. 3:8. But people skip right ahead to 1 Cor. 15 stuff like that is all the gospel is. It is disheartening really.