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What did the Apostle paul state in this regards?
beklieve upon the Lord Jesus, believe that God raised Him from the dead, believe in your heart and confess with your miuth unto salvation...
So why do you continue to revise scripture even though you have been shown the truth. You are treading on dangerous ground.
Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
That Christians can and do sin is not the issue.
The epistles to the Corinthinans should forever settle that, they were doing horrendous things yet Paul says of them
1 Corinthians 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
I don't care how many books by how many men are written, Paul the apostle calls them carnal and not all the human apologetics in the world can take that away.
To deny this state of carnality that Christians can enter into (call it something else if you wish) can engender a form of legalism which will eventually cause one to claim sinless perfection or give up in despair and depart from the Lord (although He will NEVER depart from you if you are His sheep but will seek you out, chastise you and bring you back).
Each of us who claim to speak for the Lord (and everyone on this board including myself has done so by voicing there view of the scriptures in question).
What do you think this means?
James 3:1 My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.
2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.
One day we will answer for our "mastery".
The issue is the meaning of "committeth sin".
I used this illustration: If you are stopped by a state trooper and can't produce a driver's license you will be told "you cannot drive in the State of Washington without a valid driver's license".
It doesn't mean that you are unable to drive without a license but that it is unlawful and you will suffer the consequence of doing so.
Paul also uses this line of reasoning with the Corinthians:
1 Corinthians 10
21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.
22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?
23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.
Obviously, this is exactly what they were doing, going back to their Pagan demon idolatry and then coming to the Lord's table some of them drunk from their debauchery.
Is it no wonder that he then says:
1 Corinthians 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
Also, the Christians at Thiatyra
Revelation 220 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
He gives them space to repent before he threatens them with "sleep".
Revelation 2
21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.
Even the Lord says He seeks His wandering sheep but many of you seem content to cast them into the lake of fire.
Now obviously there are pretenders, the tares, and they indeed will end up in the furnace of fire. And this is perhaps satan's strategy of this infiltrartion of his seed , to cause the church leadership to "root up the wheat" along with the tares.
My conclusion is this:
There can only be (IMO) 2 interpretations of "cannot commit sin".
The Christian cannot knowingly and continously be in a state of sin which carries the death penalty (e.g. having an adulterous affair) without being in danger of "the sin unto death". Physical death.
We are led of the Spirit, if we wander off into the jurisdiction of the law, we will suffer the consequence.
The other possibility is that this is speaking of a particular sin because it literally says "cannot commit THE sin". "Commit" is a present particle and could be an indication of a state of being and more that just a particular sin of the flesh. but a sin resulting in spiritual death as well.
And what is the one sin that indicates spritual death?
A continous and abiding state of unbelief in Jesus Christ.
A regenerate person is incapable of this sin because His seed (the Spirit of God) remains (abides, stays) in him.
There are so many other scripture that deals with the sins of the children of God that we must pay attention to them and take heed.
Particularly against each other.
1 Corinthians 8:12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
LS theology needs to make room for the fact that Jesus "Lordship" is often a realization over time that is accompanied by JOY and not by the harshness of rules, and unreasonable demands made to those who are yet weak.
2 Timothy 2
24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
God's results need God's methods.
HankD
And then what? He will remain Lord whether he sins or not. Nothing he does after that will dethrone Christ from being Lord. LS theology at this point is absurd thinking that anything we do can bring Christ off of his throne!!So why do you continue to revise scripture even though you have been shown the truth. You are treading on dangerous ground.
Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
I disagree. It is a simple message. If it wasn't, few would be saved. I wouldn't be saved. It is very simply stated in 1Cor.15:1-4 as the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. In essence you are stating that one has to become a theologian before they can be saved. Few would ever be saved if that were the case. A one to one simple presentation is enough to lead one to Christ. After that they can be discipled, learning more about "atonement," "justification," etc., terms I never understood until over two years after I was saved.My problem with the "simple message" concept is that the gospel is comprehensive and not simple. Certainly, small components are easy, but the overall message of the gospel throughout the entire Bible is not simple. It is far reaching and wide ranging. The fact that there is so much division on the gospel should demonstrate its comprehensive nature. Rarely do I hear in a gospel presentation Gen. 12:3 or Isa. 52:7. But those 2 passages are enormously huge aspects of the gospel. I would argue that a person can't understand 1 Cor. 15 properly w/out understanding other passages like Mk 1:14-15 and Gal. 3:8. But people skip right ahead to 1 Cor. 15 stuff like that is all the gospel is. It is disheartening really.
And then what? He will remain Lord whether he sins or not. Nothing he does after that will dethrone Christ from being Lord. LS theology at this point is absurd thinking that anything we do can bring Christ off of his throne!!
Not really.What one does afterward proves whether one has been regenerated. That is truth no matter what you or anyone else teaches to the contrary.
LS theology doesn't teach anything we do can "bring" Jesus off His throne. That's ridiculous and a misrepresentation of others.
Not really.
"The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked; who can know it."
Certainly not you. God alone knows the heart. Beware of putting yourself in the place of God. Herein is the fallacy of LS advocates. They place themselves in God's position. Who are they to judge the heart of man? If a person has trusted Christ as the Savior we take them at their word. God knows the rest. Lordship is the same as discipleship. Did you forsake all that you had, give to the poor, and then follow Jesus, the day you got saved?
There are plenty of Scriptures about evidence of salvation. Living in sin isn't one of them.
Beware of putting my self in the place of God? More prattle from you.
But go ahead, preach the practicing sinners into heaven.
Paul didn't. Peter didn't. Jude didn't. John didn't. You do.
Perhaps since you preach against them it's you putting yourself in the stead of God? I'd say certainly!
BTW, you're the one judging the heart of man, stating they can live in sin by implication, yet be saved because they did your easy-believism course. As if you know their hearts? You don't. But one thing is certain, their are fruiots of teh Spirit. And of teh flesh. And those sowing to the flesh (that you defend as saved) won't reap eternal life. Why? Because they're lost, no matter how many times you lead them to recite the sinners prayer.
Me? I believe the Word is clear on this, if that angers you and causes you to say I am being God, well, I really just couldn't care any less what you think.
There are passages of Scripture showing what evidence of salvation is. Go read them.
By the way, giving to the poor, and giving up all I had is a works based salvation the way you put it and shows how much you truly misunderstand. You misunderstand Christ here. Again.
I think that both you and Dhk are right in your viewpoints on this topic, its just addressing 2 seperate aspects of it!
Like paul and james complimenting each others views...
Dhk is correct ewhen he says that its by faith and grace ALONE one is saved, as that moment in time we will become saved by act/will of God, will become new creatures in Christ, completely/fully justified..."free grace"
After receiving jesus, we will be growing up in Him, becoming more like Him, working out all that salvation has changed within us, will have a life reflecting to some degree jesus changed our lives, progressive sauctification"Lordship"
Not really.
"The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked; who can know it."
Certainly not you. God alone knows the heart. Beware of putting yourself in the place of God. Herein is the fallacy of LS advocates. They place themselves in God's position. Who are they to judge the heart of man? If a person has trusted Christ as the Savior we take them at their word. God knows the rest. Lordship is the same as discipleship. Did you forsake all that you had, give to the poor, and then follow Jesus, the day you got saved?
Quote me where I said that, otherwise stop the slander.DHK teaches that a person can practice sin and stil get to heaven. That's incorrect. There are pasages that teach evidence of salvation.
You didn't answer my question P4TDid you forsake all that you had, give to the poor, and then follow Jesus, the day you got saved?
There are plenty of Scriptures about evidence of salvation. Living in sin isn't one of them.
I believe we are saved by grace and faith alone. But faith isn't dead. What says the Lord to those who call Him "Lord, Lord" yet work iniquity (live in sin)? That He never knew them. What does DHK teach? That they did know Him. This is error.
think that both of us would agree on this, in that one life will reflect to some degree the "new life" we now have from God in Christ!
key thing on this is that there ARE though degrees of sauctification, in that we all will experience different growth from that intial time of conversion , and that it is a lifelong process in God making us confirmed into image of His son jesus!
a genuine Christian can and does still sin, its just that he will be convicted by the HS, and there will be a time of confession/repentance of him, in order to come back to his fellowship with the Father!
So in the end, the real christian will have a time of coming back to God, to have victory and overcoming sin areas, while the 'fake' Christian will never turn back to God and will keep on staying in their sins![quote/]
DHK teaches that a person can practice sin and stil get to heaven. That's incorrect. There are pasages that teach evidence of salvation.
Think both you and he would agree that a Christian does NOT habitually sin without ANY evidence of conviction/repentance/change![quote/]
We aren't talking two separate issues.
Think largest quibble between all of us here would appear to be that we tend to say a person can indeed be really saved, and yet can still experience 'season" of sinning, but will come back to the Lord, while some seem to NOT allow for any sinning like that to occur after salvation!
Preacher4truth...
We ALL live in sin, brother! I live in sin. DHK lives in sin, you live in sin, we all live in sin.
Not habitual, flagrant, joyfully wicked sinning....but we sin none the less.
Improper motives. excessive pride, that lustfull look, wishing ill will on someone who hurt you, etc etc etc. We all sin, over and over again, all through our lifetime.
We dont want to, and the Holy Spirit is alive and active 24/7 influencing us as to how we should live.
But we still blow it. We rationalize, we make excuses for ourselves, we con ourselves into thinking it is *really* a sin, ect, ect ect.
We all live in sin
You didn't answer my question P4T
He meant what he said. This is one of the verses that both Washer and MacArthur use for Lordship Salvation; not one I would ever use. So either you advocate their position and obey the verse, or you take my position and believe that sanctification is a life long process which happens after a person is initially saved by faith.No need to answer you on that when you only know what Jesus said, not what He meant.
He meant what he said. This is one of the verses that both Washer and MacArthur use for Lordship Salvation; not one I would ever use. So either you advocate their position and obey the verse, or you take my position and believe that sanctification is a life long process which happens after a person is initially saved by faith.
Your basic premise is:"He meant what He said", and Washer and Piper use this to prove "He meant what He said" for LS, yet in doing so, by believing what He said, they're wrong?
I'll await proof they've somehow misused this text, while at the same time, you use it as yourself in the same wat you say they do, yet your allowed to and they aren't? Correct?
You're talking out both sides of your mouth. You also misunderstand Jesus here, and Piper and Washer.
Both of these men are godly men.