Lordship Salvation volume 2

[Winman]

Winn that simply is not correct. We who hold to Lordship Salvation can know if we are saved. In fact we are the only ones who can. Taking 3 passages and trying to let them stand alone when there are other passages of equal value is not finding the truth. The same writer also said this;
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

As in any subject when seeking the truth we dare not take one part to support a belief and deny reject another that deals with the same issue. All those passage put together bring truth. The saved keep the commandments. The saved believe on Jesus and hear His word, the saved love the brethren. Those who teach Lordship salvation hold that all those are necessary to know if we are saved and will be present in every true believer.
So we can and do know, but we base it on what scripture says not feelings like those who teach easy believism. We who are saved hear and believe on Jesus, we love the brethren and we keep the commandments. If a person fails in any of those they cannot know they are saved and in fact they are not saved.
All those are the evidence of the saved not what makes us saved. No one gets saved by coming to Christ only as savior. If they do not want Him as Lord then they remain lost.

No, you cannot have assurance in your system. If you do well today, you might have confidence you are saved. If you do not do well and disobey, you must doubt.

You cannot KNOW you are saved in LS, because you cannot be sure you will persevere. Don't tell me I cannot know this, I can put myself in your shoes and see the logical conclusions. It is bondage.

 

[quantumfaith]

Tempers are getting a little short.

The term "easy-believism" is a misnoner. IMO It should be "phoney believism".

The problem with LS theology to those of us who are accused of "easy-believism" is that it very often comes across as "faith plus works".

The other side objects that we teach that one can keep on sinning and still get into heaven.

Well, does anyone here on either side claim sinlessness? If one believes the posts, I don't think so.

The issue is life after salvation. Our sanctification.

Sanctification is not Justification.

Obviously if there has been the rebirth there is going to be a radical inward change which in most cases, but not always, spills out into the outward manner of life.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
​

What for instance of the seven year old PK or MK who is saved in Sunday School?

Yes a radical inward change but outwardly it may not be as evident.

Or perhaps a "church goer" who suddenly realizes he/she is not saved (it happens) after years of church attemdance with a "moral" life and maybe even a baptism to back it up.

The main problem as I see it is the confusion caused by trying to make sanctification a requirement of justification.

It indeed will happen if there has been rebirth.

More than once those who lead are admonished to be patient with the young.

Some one said we are both saying the same thing from a different perspective.

Having been in LS churches in my youth, I was counseled about personal sin and it sounded the same as from the so-called "easy-believism" pastors. It happens, make it right and move on

I think we should be very careful about our accusations.
Because in reality neither is true.
One cannot find either term "easy believism" or "lordship salvation" in the scripture.

Personally, as a teacher I have never told anyone they can sin without consequence.

But as truth would have it, everyone (on either side) admits that sin happens to Christians.

The essence of the issue then IMO is sanctification and how can those who watch over the flock measure and promote growth in holiness without fostering either legalism or licentiousness?

HankD

Great Post Hank, this terminology "easy believism" is bantered around way too much and typically its intention is to cast dispersion on others.

 

[JesusFan]

Winn that simply is not correct. We who hold to Lordship Salvation can know if we are saved. In fact we are the only ones who can. Taking 3 passages and trying to let them stand alone when there are other passages of equal value is not finding the truth. The same writer also said this;
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

As in any subject when seeking the truth we dare not take one part to support a belief and deny or reject another that deals with the same issue. All those passage put together bring truth. The saved keep the commandments. The saved believe on Jesus and hear His word, the saved love the brethren. Those who teach Lordship salvation hold that all those are necessary to know if we are saved and will be present in every true believer.
So we can and do know, but we base it on what scripture says not feelings like those who teach easy believism. We who are saved hear and believe on Jesus, we love the brethren and we keep the commandments. If a person fails in any of those they cannot know they are saved and in fact they are not saved.
All those are the evidence of the saved not what makes us saved. No one gets saved by coming to Christ only as savior. If they do not want Him as Lord then they remain lost.

The Bible is VERY Clear that NONE can be saved apart from the person and work of Jesus upon the Cross...

ALL who call upon His name will be saved...

Those who know Him as saviour also Automatically have Him as their Lord, he cannot come divided, so from his point of view, is both Saviour and Lord to them...

From OUR point of view, those who are saved and refuse to have His :lordship" practical applied into their lives will face life without His full presense available to assist and aid them, as they will have to 'deal" with Him wanting to have them commit all they are/own/have unto Him...

Both groups of believers saved by garce, just that one will be earning more good works and will be more fruitful, as they will have the 'fullness' of their relationship with giod open to them, as they are putting God in charge over more aspects of their lives to God!

 

[Martin Marprelate]

There are three verses in particular that refute LS in my view, and why I cannot accept it. These are Jn 5:24, 1 Jn 3:14, and 1 Jn 3:2;

Jn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death to life.

Amen! Have you heard His word? Have you heard the word that tells you to repent (Mark 1:15)? Have you heard the word that you must be born again (John 3:3)? Have you heard the word that tells you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven (Matt 5:20)?

1 Jn 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

Amen again! Do you love the brethren? Those who don't agree with you? Those from a different socio-economic group from you? Those whose personalities are at right angles to your own? That's the standard if Jesus is your Lord.

1 Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

These scriptures teach that a Christian can know he has passed from death to life, and that he is a son of God NOW.

Amen again! Every Christian can know that He is saved if He has trusted in Christ as his Lord and Saviour. But if you are living in complete opposition to God's law, what makes you think you are a Christian? 'Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolators, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God' (1Cor 6:9-10). Yes, but I raised my hand at a meeting and recited a sinner's prayer. 'Be not deceived.' Yes, but I signed my name in the back of a Gideon Testament. 'Be not deceived.' Yes, but I had such a feeling when the minister prayed over me. 'Be not deceived.' 'Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known Him' (1John 3:6).

Now we know that the same John who wrote 3:6 also wrote 1:8-10, so whatever that verse is teaching, it's not sinless perfection. The clue lies in the Present Tense in Greek which denotes continuous action. An alternative translation might be, 'Whoever is abiding in Him does not keep on sinning.'

A person who believes in LS cannot know this. A person who believes in LS must believe that he must persevere to be saved. You may be following the Lord today, but there is no guarantee you will be 10 years from now, or 20 years from now. There can be no assurance in LS salvation, because salvation depends on perseverance.

No, the scriptures say a person who has truly trusted Christ is saved NOW. They can know for a certainty they are saved, have passed from death to life, and is a son of God NOW.

This is why LS cannot be true.

Certainly a person who has truly trusted Christ is saved NOW. But have we truly trusted Him? First of all, we are commanded to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith (2Cor 13:5). Is the Holy Spirit dwelling within us? How can we tell? Do we desire to live a holy life? Does it distress us when we fall short? Do we still love the world? Do we love to be in the company of other Christians? These are the questions we should be asking ourselves, not "Did I go forward at a Billy Graham meeting?" If we can answer "Yes" to these questions, then certainly we can have assurance that we are saved. But if not, then our assurance is a sham. We are on our way to hell with a pocket-full of false promises. If Jesus Christ is not your Lord, He is not your Saviour either.

If a Christian falls into serious sin for any length of time, he will lose his assurance, and rightly so. If he is a lost sheep, then the Good Shepherd will come and find him. If He does not come and find him, the explanation must be that he is not a sheep at all, but a goat.

Steve

 

[JesusFan]

Amen! Have you heard His word? Have you heard the word that tells you to repent (Mark 1:15)? Have you heard the word that you must be born again (John 3:3)? Have you heard the word that tells you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven (Matt 5:20)?


Amen again! Do you love the brethren? Those who don't agree with you? Those from a different socio-economic group from you? Those whose personalities are at right angles to your own? That's the standard if Jesus is your Lord.

Amen again! Every Christian can know that He is saved if He has trusted in Christ as his Lord and Saviour. But if you are living in complete opposition to God's law, what makes you think you are a Christian? 'Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolators, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God' (1Cor 6:9-10). Yes, but I raised my hand at a meeting and recited a sinner's prayer. 'Be not deceived.' Yes, but I signed my name in the back of a Gideon Testament. 'Be not deceived.' Yes, but I had such a feeling when the minister prayed over me. 'Be not deceived.' 'Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known Him' (1John 3:6).

Now we know that the same John who wrote 3:6 also wrote 1:8-10, so whatever that verse is teaching, it's not sinless perfection. The clue lies in the Present Tense in Greek which denotes continuous action. An alternative translation might be, 'Whoever is abiding in Him does not keep on sinning.'

Certainly a person who has truly trusted Christ is saved NOW. But have we truly trusted Him? First of all, we are commanded to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith (2Cor 13:5). Is the Holy Spirit dwelling within us? How can we tell? Do we desire to live a holy life? Does it distress us when we fall short? Do we still love the world? Do we love to be in the company of other Christians? These are the questions we should be asking ourselves, not "Did I go forward at a Billy Graham meeting?" If we can answer "Yes" to these questions, then certainly we can have assurance that we are saved. But if not, then our assurance is a sham. We are on our way to hell with a pocket-full of false promises. If Jesus Christ is not your Lord, He is not your Saviour either.

If a Christian falls into serious sin for any length of time, he will lose his assurance, and rightly so. If he is a lost sheep, then the Good Shepherd will come and find him. If He does not come and find him, the explanation must be that he is not a sheep at all, but a goat.

Steve

Are those who hold to LDS "moresaved/secured" than those who hold to "free grace?"

Thought ALL saved and secured same way, by the Cross of Christ!

 

[Winman]

Let me ask you something. When you go down to the bank and deposit money, that is trust is it not? You KNOW you have trusted the bank don't you? Do you need some sort of evidence to prove to yourself that you deposited the money?

How about if a friend asked to borrow your car. You give him the keys and watch him drive off. You have trusted him correct? Do you need some sort of evidence to prove to yourself that you trusted your car to your friend?

It is the same with the Lord. I KNOW that I called upon him to save me, and I KNOW I sincerely meant it. Why do I need evidence to prove to myself that I trusted him?

I cannot save myself, only Jesus can do that. But Jesus promised to save all that come to him and cast none out. It is not something you have to do over and over, when you trust Jesus you have passed from death to life and shall NEVER come into condemnation. You are a son of God NOW.

Lordship Salvation is works, if you do not obey, you are not saved. No one who believes in LS can know they are saved until they die. You must work, you must persevere.

We don't earn salvation by good works, and we cannot keep our salvation by works.

Simply trust the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved TODAY.

 

[DHK]

Winn that simply is not correct. We who hold to Lordship Salvation can know if we are saved. In fact we are the only ones who can. Taking 3 passages and trying to let them stand alone when there are other passages of equal value is not finding the truth.

If you kept it at the "IF WE ARE SAVED," then your statement would be ok. But you (LS) don't. You rather say, "IF YOU ARE SAVED." Salvation is personal, between one and God. First John was written as you expressed it: to know if WE, (i.e. I) are saved, not to know if YOU are saved. "Who art thou that judgest thy brother," Paul wrote. He also said: "Examine yourself to see if you are in the faith lest you are reprobates."
He did not say: "Examine your neighbors/friends/brothers, etc. to see if they are in the faith..."

The same writer also said this;

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

We, not You.

As in any subject when seeking the truth we dare not take one part to support a belief and deny or reject another that deals with the same issue. All those passage put together bring truth. The saved keep the commandments. The saved believe on Jesus and hear His word, the saved love the brethren. Those who teach Lordship salvation hold that all those are necessary to know if we are saved and will be present in every true believer.

If we are saved. Examine yourself not others.

So we can and do know, but we base it on what scripture says not feelings like those who teach easy believism.

Stop pointing fingers. Who here believes easy believism? Where did you get your definition from? And do you know what it really is? Is every one in agreement with YOUR definition, or are you just making things up as you go along?

We who are saved hear and believe on Jesus, we love the brethren and we keep the commandments.

All 613 of them? Are they necessary to be saved. That is what legalism is. What are "the commandments"? No man can keep the law--no man!

If a person fails in any of those they cannot know they are saved and in fact they are not saved.

Not only are not saved, you are cursed.

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. (Galatians 3:10)
--If you have not continued in all things in the law--every law from birth to death, not breaking a single one. The truth is that we have all broken the law many times during our lifetime. We are cursed under the law--unless, of course, you insist you must keep them. If that is the case then you, as you admit, are cursed.

All those are the evidence of the saved not what makes us saved. No one gets saved by coming to Christ only as savior. If they do not want Him as Lord then they remain lost.

We all get saved by coming to the Lord as Savior. He is our Lord and Savior. After that comes a long period of growth and sanctification.

 

[Winman]

The sick who came to Jesus are a picture of salvation. They didn't have to heal themselves before they came to Jesus, and in fact they could not heal themselves.

Jesus did not bargain with these sick people, he did not make them swear to follow him and be obedient before he would heal them.

No, they only had to believe and come to Jesus. And when they did they were made WHOLE. They didn't have to continue in obedience else Jesus would make them blind or lame again.

But did many of these people follow Jesus? Yes, but they did it out of love and gratitude, not fear.

 

[freeatlast]

If you kept it at the "IF WE ARE SAVED," then your statement would be ok. But you (LS) don't. You rather say, "IF YOU ARE SAVED." Salvation is personal, between one and God. First John was written as you expressed it: to know if WE, (i.e. I) are saved, not to know if YOU are saved. "Who art thou that judgest thy brother," Paul wrote. He also said: "Examine yourself to see if you are in the faith lest you are reprobates."
He did not say: "Examine your neighbors/friends/brothers, etc. to see if they are in the faith..."

We, not You.

If we are saved. Examine yourself not others.

Stop pointing fingers. Who here believes easy believism? Where did you get your definition from? And do you know what it really is? Is every one in agreement with YOUR definition, or are you just making things up as you go along?

All 613 of them? Are they necessary to be saved. That is what legalism is. What are "the commandments"? No man can keep the law--no man!

Not only are not saved, you are cursed.

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. (Galatians 3:10)
--If you have not continued in all things in the law--every law from birth to death, not breaking a single one. The truth is that we have all broken the law many times during our lifetime. We are cursed under the law--unless, of course, you insist you must keep them. If that is the case then you, as you admit, are cursed.

We all get saved by coming to the Lord as Savior. He is our Lord and Savior. After that comes a long period of growth and sanctification.

No, we all get saved by repentance towards God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. No one gets saved by coming to Jesus as savior. If they do not want hIm as Lord they do not get Him as Savior.

 

[freeatlast]

The sick who came to Jesus are a picture of salvation. They didn't have to heal themselves before they came to Jesus, and in fact they could not heal themselves.

Jesus did not bargain with these sick people, he did not make them swear to follow him and be obedient before he would heal them.

No, they only had to believe and come to Jesus. And when they did they were made WHOLE. They didn't have to continue in obedience else Jesus would make them blind or lame again.

But did many of these people follow Jesus? Yes, but they did it out of love and gratitude, not fear.

Everyone who was healed accepted Him as Lord.

 

[InTheLight]

Let me answer these questions as if it were being asked the day after I first repented and believed.

Certainly a person who has truly trusted Christ is saved NOW. But have we truly trusted Him?

Yes.

First of all, we are commanded to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith (2Cor 13:5). Is the Holy Spirit dwelling within us?

I think so.

How can we tell?

I don't know. I just got saved.

Do we desire to live a holy life?

I think so.

Does it distress us when we fall short?

I don't know.

Do we still love the world?

What does this mean?

Do we love to be in the company of other Christians?

I suppose so.

If we can answer "Yes" to these questions, then certainly we can have assurance that we are saved. But if not, then our assurance is a sham. We are on our way to hell with a pocket-full of false promises.

Then, according to your tests, I guess I'm not a believer.

If Jesus Christ is not your Lord, He is not your Saviour either.

I don't know what being my Lord means, but I was certain he was my Saviour. I guess I'm not a Christian by your standards.

 

[DHK]

No, we all get saved by repentance towards God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. No one gets saved by coming to Jesus as savior. If they do not want hIm as Lord they do not get Him as Savior.

And there went sola fide.
Repentance just became a "work" to add to faith.
Like the COC you keep adding works to faith in order to be saved.
That is what legalism is all about.

 

[preacher4truth]

And there went sola fide.
Repentance just became a "work" to add to faith.
Like the COC you keep adding works to faith in order to be saved.
That is what legalism is all about.

You and your agenda against repentance.

Repentance? A necessary ingredient in salvation, and a gift from God.

It's even an epistle mandate, not soley a Gospel or Acts mandate as you falsely assume.

You're incorrect again DHK.

 

[freeatlast]

And there went sola fide.
Repentance just became a "work" to add to faith.
Like the COC you keep adding works to faith in order to be saved.
That is what legalism is all about.

If you want to call repentance a work that is fine. The bible doesn't however, but Faith is a work.

Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;
sola fide

There can be no faith without repentance. No repentance, no faith, no salvation.

 

[Winman]

Everyone who was healed accepted Him as Lord.

Show even one verse to support this. Show where Jesus ever placed the condition of obedience before he healed someone.

And you are not getting it, all who were healed were made instantly whole, it was not a process. This represents our instantly passing from death to life when we trust Jesus.

Let me ask you Freeatlast, do you absolutely know for certain you will persevere to the end?

 

[Alive in Christ]

Regarding repentance. Webdog posted...

I understand it as a turn from self which is the source of all sin to the One who nailed these sins to the cross.

I agree. When we trust Christ..faith, and faith alone... we recieve the complete forgiviness of sins. All sins. Our past sins, any current sin, and every sin that we will commit in the future.

Ephesians 1:7...

...to the praise of the glory of His grace, by wich He made us accepted in the beloved, in Him we have the redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. according to the riches of His grace....

Eph 13: In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gosple of your salvation, in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarentee of our inheritance, until the redemption of the purchased possesion. to the praise of His glory.

 

[freeatlast]

Show even one verse to support this. Show where Jesus ever placed the condition of obedience before he healed someone.

And you are not getting it, all who were healed were made instantly whole, it was not a process. This represents our instantly passing from death to life when we trust Jesus.

Let me ask you Freeatlast, do you absolutely know for certain you will persevere to the end?

The last question first. Yes, for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. , not me keeping me.
I never said that Jesus place a condition to be healed. I said they all accepted Him as Lord.

Those who were healed called Him Lord, not Savior.

 

[Winman]

Regarding repentance. Webdog posted...



I agree. When we trust Christ..faith, and faith alone... we recieve the complete forgiviness of sins. All sins. Our past sins, any current sin, and every sin that we will commit in the future.

Ephesians 1:7...

...to the praise of the glory of His grace, by wich He made us accepted in the beloved, in Him we have the redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. according to the riches of His grace....

Eph 13: In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gosple of your salvation, in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarentee of our inheritance, until the redemption of the purchased possesion. to the praise of His glory.

You got it AiC!

We are sealed, we are purchased, we are his possession. And it all happened the moment we trusted the gospel.

We do not have to persevere (Thank God), we are preserved, we are kept by Jesus.

Some call this easy believeism, yet it is amazing how difficult it is for folks to believe it. Jesus saves us, and not ourselves.

 

[freeatlast]

You got it AiC!

We are sealed, we are purchased, we are his possession. And it all happened the moment we trusted the gospel.

We do not have to persevere (Thank God), we are preserved, we are kept by Jesus.

Some call this easy believeism, yet it is amazing how difficult it is for folks to believe it. Jesus saves us, and not ourselves.

Yes He does save us if we come to repentance towrds God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Alive in Christ]

I find it interesting that the language of those against LS mimics so closely Calvinistic soteriology. I.e. HankD

GreekTim..

Brother, I just have to say this to you. I really dont have any choice



GO BUCKEYES!! :thumbs::smilewinkgrin: