Lordship Salvation volume 2

[preacher4truth]

Your basic premise is:
They are godly men.
Because they are godly men they understand the scripture and must be right on the scriptures.

I pity you if that is your position. You follow the teachings of men and not of God. "Godly" men can be wrong. Many are. The Scriptures are our final authority, not men.

Stop pitying then, that's not my position.

My position is you want to adhere literally to what Jesus said here, then mock others who do the same.

So no, my basic premise isn't that they are "godly men" it's 1) That you misunderstand Jesus here 2) That you have provided no proof concerning what they say here. That's called hearsay. 3) That you preach an easy-believism message.

 

[HankD]

What did the Apostle paul state in this regards?
beklieve upon the Lord Jesus, believe that God raised Him from the dead, believe in your heart and confess with your miuth unto salvation...

That is ALL that is required by God to get saved, intial faith in jesus, but we also will be expected to grow up in our grace and knowledge of Him, that is where we learn to surrender more of us unto Him, that is where "lordship" begins to happen, and will continue until death/secondcoming!

Agreed.

HankD

 

[JesusFan]

I think we have a difference of understanding in what "living in sin" is. Blowing it is one thing, which we all do, yes.

The believer lives a lifestyle of repentance, he sins, repents, is cleansed and this is a cycle.

Think the writer of hebrews requests us to get rid of those "besitting' sins that tend to entangle us!

Just seems that some say IF really saved by God, would NOT have to deal with that, but hebrews clearly states that even real saints can have real sin issues at times!

 

[DHK]

Stop pitying then, that's not my position.

My position is you want to adhere literally to what Jesus said here, then mock others who do the same.

So no, my basic premise isn't that they are "godly men" it's 1) That you misunderstand Jesus here

I don't, but if you care to elaborate, go ahead. A better idea is to read Greektim's exposition. I was just giving you his. He is in agreement with LS.

2) That you have provided no proof concerning what they say here. That's called hearsay.

It is not hearsay when I have read their works and know what they believe. I can quote many authors (paraphrasing) because of what I have read.

3) That you preach an easy-believism message.

That is nothing but slander. Quote me, document it. Or apologize.

 

[preacher4truth]

I don't, but if you care to elaborate, go ahead. A better idea is to read Greektim's exposition. I was just giving you his. He is in agreement with LS.
2) That you have provided no proof concerning what they say here. That's called hearsay.

It is not hearsay when I have read their works and know what they believe. I can quote many authors (paraphrasing) because of what I have read.

That is nothing but slander. Quote me, document it. Or apologize.

Start quoting then.

 

[DHK]

Start quoting then.

Comprenez-vous Anglais

 

[preacher4truth]

Comprenez-vous Anglais

Prouver qu'ils ont déclaré ce que vous avez allégué.

 

[HankD]

Stop pitying then, that's not my position.

My position is you want to adhere literally to what Jesus said here, then mock others who do the same.

So no, my basic premise isn't that they are "godly men" it's 1) That you misunderstand Jesus here 2) That you have provided no proof concerning what they say here. That's called hearsay. 3) That you preach an easy-believism message.

Tempers are getting a little short.

The term "easy-believism" is a misnoner. IMO It should be "phoney believism".

The problem with LS theology to those of us who are accused of "easy-believism" is that it very often comes across as "faith plus works".

The other side objects that we teach that one can keep on sinning and still get into heaven.

Well, does anyone here on either side claim sinlessness? If one believes the posts, I don't think so.

The issue is life after salvation. Our sanctification.

Sanctification is not Justification.

Obviously if there has been the rebirth there is going to be a radical inward change which in most cases, but not always, spills out into the outward manner of life.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
​

What for instance of the seven year old PK or MK who is saved in Sunday School?

Yes a radical inward change but outwardly it may not be as evident.

Or perhaps a "church goer" who suddenly realizes he/she is not saved (it happens) after years of church attemdance with a "moral" life and maybe even a baptism to back it up.

The main problem as I see it is the confusion caused by trying to make sanctification a requirement of justification.

It indeed will happen if there has been rebirth.

More than once those who lead are admonished to be patient with the young.

Some one said we are both saying the same thing from a different perspective.

Having been in LS churches in my youth, I was counseled about personal sin and it sounded the same as from the so-called "easy-believism" pastors. It happens, make it right and move on

I think we should be very careful about our accusations.
Because in reality neither is true.
One cannot find either term "easy believism" or "lordship salvation" in the scripture.

Personally, as a teacher I have never told anyone they can sin without consequence.

But as truth would have it, everyone (on either side) admits that sin happens to Christians.

The essence of the issue then IMO is sanctification and how can those who watch over the flock measure and promote growth in holiness without fostering either legalism or licentiousness?

HankD

 

[preacher4truth]

Tempers are getting a little short.

The term "easy-believism" is a misnoner. IMO It should be "phoney believism".

The problem with LS theology to those of us who are accused of "easy-believism" is that it very often comes across as "faith plus works".

The other side objects that we teach that one can keep on sinning and still get into heaven.

Well, does anyone here on either side claim sinlessness? If one believes the posts, I don't think so.

The issue is life after salvation. Our sanctification.

Sanctification is not Justification.

Obviously if there has been the rebirth there is going to be a radical inward change which in most cases, but not always, spills out into the outward manner of life.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
​

What for instance of the seven year old PK or MK who is saved in Sunday School?

Yes a radical inward change but outwardly it may not be as evident.

Or perhaps a "church goer" who suddenly realizes he/she is not saved (it happens) after years of church attemdance with a "moral" life and maybe even a baptism to back it up.

The main problem as I see it is the confusion caused by trying to make sanctification a requirement of justification.

It indeed will happen if there has been rebirth.

More than once those who lead are admonished to be patient with the young.

Some one said we are both saying the same thing from a different perspective.

Having been in LS churches in my youth, I was counseled about personal sin and it sounded the same as from the so-called "easy-believism" pastors. It happens, make it right and move on

I think we should be very careful about our accusations.
Because in reality neither is true.
One cannot find either term "easy believism" or "lordship salvation" in the scripture.

Personally, as a teacher I have never told anyone they can sin without consequence.

But as truth would have it, everyone (on either side) admits that sin happens to Christians.

The essence of the issue then IMO is sanctification and how can those who watch over the flock measure and promote growth in holiness without fostering either legalism or licentiousness?

HankD

No need for the pretense that there is anger. Are you angry DHK?

Not here.

BTW Hank, just because you don't find the tem in Scripture doesn't mean it isn't valid.

 

[DHK]

One cannot find either term "easy believism" or "lordship salvation" in the scripture.
HankD

Good post Hank.
I didn't repost it all to save space.

 

[JesusFan]

Good post Hank.
I didn't repost it all to save space.

Different 'snapshots" of the life of a Christian...
right at the start of his race, we see the picture of "free grace" Justified before God

later on in his walk/race, see different pictures, some of him on side of the road,some of him walking, some running, all of them moving forward to the goal of finishing the race "lordship" sauntification

 

[webdog]

So what does it mean when it says a repentance for the forgiveness of sins??? What does it mean when it says "repent and turn to him to have your sins blotted out"???

I've answered this already, you keep asking the same thing worded differently.

 

[JesusFan]

I've answered this already, you keep asking the same thing worded differently.

Almost a required talent to have for posting here on the BB!

 

[HankD]

No need for the pretense that there is anger. Are you angry DHK?

Not here.

BTW Hank, just because you don't find the term in Scripture doesn't mean it isn't valid.

I understand but it's still a true statement.

Paul spoke of "psuedo" brethren (which I suppose could be identified as "easy-believers") but also spoke against mixing law and grace (sometimes identified as "legalism").

My hope is that somehow a meeting ground can be met without using pejorative terms against each other because each side has a genuine concern for the Body of Christ.

There doesn't have to be a polarity of legalism vs licentiousness.

HankD

 

[preacher4truth]

I understand but it's still a true statement.

Paul spoke of "psuedo" brethren (which I suppose could be identified as "easy-believers") but also spoke against mixing law and grace (sometimes identified as "legalism").

My hope is that somehow a meeting ground can be met without using pejorative terms against each other because each side has a genuine concern for the Body of Christ.

There doesn't have to be a polarity of legalism vs licentiousness.

HankD

I agree brother.

That, and online doesn't lend itself to understanding one another.

I believe we all agree it is Jesus alone.

- Peace

 

[HankD]

I agree brother.

That, and online doesn't lend itself to understanding one another.

I believe we all agree it is Jesus alone.

- Peace

Yes, agreed.

 

[Winman]

There are three verses in particular that refute LS in my view, and why I cannot accept it. These are Jn 5:24, 1 Jn 3:14, and 1 Jn 3:2;

Jn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death to life.

1 Jn 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

1 Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

These scriptures teach that a Christian can know he has passed from death to life, and that he is a son of God NOW.

A person who believes in LS cannot know this. A person who believes in LS must believe that he must persevere to be saved. You may be following the Lord today, but there is no guarantee you will be 10 years from now, or 20 years from now. There can be no assurance in LS salvation, because salvation depends on perseverance.

No, the scriptures say a person who has truly trusted Christ is saved NOW. They can know for a certainty they are saved, have passed from death to life, and is a son of God NOW.

This is why LS cannot be true.

 

[JesusFan]

There are three verses in particular that refute LS in my view, and why I cannot accept it. These are Jn 5:24, 1 Jn 3:14, and 1 Jn 3:2;

Jn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death to life.

1 Jn 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

1 Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

These scriptures teach that a Christian can know he has passed from death to life, and that he is a son of God NOW.

A person who believes in LS cannot know this. A person who believes in LS must believe that he must persevere to be saved. You may be following the Lord today, but there is no guarantee you will be 10 years from now, or 20 years from now. There can be no assurance in LS salvation, because salvation depends on perseverance.

No, the scriptures say a person who has truly trusted Christ is saved NOW. They can know for a certainty they are saved, have passed from death to life, and is a son of God NOW.

This is why LS cannot be true.

To be fair, there are verses that state that to ;Him who overcomes/endures to the end" will receive their reward from the Lord, will show themselves to be approved of/by God...

Think LDS concern is that many will look back at an alter call/crusade/emotional experience/encounter with God, and yet in the end...

"Depart from me, I NEVER know you!"

So though they might go "overboard" in their application to a genuine Christian this expected transformation, do think they are addressing and noting a very valid concern and point in just how 'cheap grcae' has entered into the church!

 

[freeatlast]

There are three verses in particular that refute LS in my view, and why I cannot accept it. These are Jn 5:24, 1 Jn 3:14, and 1 Jn 3:2;

Jn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death to life.

1 Jn 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

1 Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

These scriptures teach that a Christian can know he has passed from death to life, and that he is a son of God NOW.

A person who believes in LS cannot know this. A person who believes in LS must believe that he must persevere to be saved. You may be following the Lord today, but there is no guarantee you will be 10 years from now, or 20 years from now. There can be no assurance in LS salvation, because salvation depends on perseverance.

No, the scriptures say a person who has truly trusted Christ is saved NOW. They can know for a certainty they are saved, have passed from death to life, and is a son of God NOW.

This is why LS cannot be true.

Winn that simply is not correct. We who hold to Lordship Salvation can know if we are saved. In fact we are the only ones who can. Taking 3 passages and trying to let them stand alone when there are other passages of equal value is not finding the truth. The same writer also said this;
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

As in any subject when seeking the truth we dare not take one part to support a belief and deny or reject another that deals with the same issue. All those passage put together bring truth. The saved keep the commandments. The saved believe on Jesus and hear His word, the saved love the brethren. Those who teach Lordship salvation hold that all those are necessary to know if we are saved and will be present in every true believer.
So we can and do know, but we base it on what scripture says not feelings like those who teach easy believism. We who are saved hear and believe on Jesus, we love the brethren and we keep the commandments. If a person fails in any of those they cannot know they are saved and in fact they are not saved.
All those are the evidence of the saved not what makes us saved. No one gets saved by coming to Christ only as savior. If they do not want Him as Lord then they remain lost.

 

[Winman]

To be fair, there are verses that state that to ;Him who overcomes/endures to the end" will receive their reward from the Lord, will show themselves to be approved of/by God...

Think LDS concern is that many will llook back at an alter call/crusade/emotional experience/encounter with God, and yet in the end...

"Depart from me, i NEVER know you!"

And what did these unbelievers claim as their right to salvation?

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Did these persons call Jesus Lord? Yes, in fact it is said TWICE for emphasis. Who does that sound like? And what did they claim? WORKS.

Mat 21:31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.

This is the repentance Jesus spoke of, turning from self-righteousness and depending (believeing) on Jesus alone to save them. The chief priests and the elders trusted in their own works and righteousness. The publicans and harlots did not boast of works or righteousness, but trusted in Jesus alone to save them.

This is repentance, turning from self-righteousness, confessing we are lost sinners, and trusting Jesus alone to save you.

We are not saved by persevering, that is works salvation. You will find nothing but misery and disappointment in this. Cast yourself on Jesus, and he will save you TODAY.