Lordship salvation vs Easy believeism

[OldRegular]

When God looks at me, he sees Christ. I have been fully justified by Christ's works.
I'm justified, I'm free from debt, I'm declared clean. I'm innocent.
Every sin, every trespass, every dirty deed, past and future, has been paid for. Colossians 2:13-14
This means I do not need to obey to please God, Jesus did it all!
I don't owe God obedience - the debt was paid.
I'm obedient because I have been made new, I'm a child of God, I no longer walk in darkness but in light.
The works I do come from the work Christ did to redeem me and the Spirit that is within me.

Rob

Then was the Apostle Paul wrong when he wrote the following:

Ephesians 4:17-32; 5:1-20
17. This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
18. Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19. Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
20. But ye have not so learned Christ;
21. If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22. That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23. And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24. And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
25. Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
26. Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
27. Neither give place to the devil.
28. Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
29. Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
30. And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
31. Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
32. And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you.

 

[OldRegular]

When God looks at me, he sees Christ. I have been fully justified by Christ's works.
I'm justified, I'm free from debt, I'm declared clean. I'm innocent.
Every sin, every trespass, every dirty deed, past and future, has been paid for. Colossians 2:13-14
This means I do not need to obey to please God, Jesus did it all!
I don't owe God obedience - the debt was paid.
I'm obedient because I have been made new, I'm a child of God, I no longer walk in darkness but in light.
The works I do come from the work Christ did to redeem me and the Spirit that is within me.

Rob

And was the Apostle Paul wrong when he wrote the following:

Ephesians 5:1-20
5:1. Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
2. And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
3. But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4. Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
8. For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
9. (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth
10. Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
11. And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
12. For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.
13. But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.
14. Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
15. See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,
16. Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.
17. Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.
18. And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
19. Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
20. Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

 

[JamesL]

I will be charitable and say that you are misinformed. There are those who believe in Lordship Salvation who reject Reformed Theology (not Reformation Theology). So, that misunderstanding is now debunked.

As far as your charge that Lordship Salvation is an akin to Rome's justification by works, well, I will dispense with being charitable and say that your are spewing utter rubbish. I typically avoid responding to your posts, but this travesty of an accusation deserves to be rebuked in the strongest possible terms.

What problem do you have with professed Christians being expected to act like Christians? Justification has always been, and always will be, by faith. No one is justified by works. But a genuine salvation will always result in a changed life. Always and without fail. If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature. Old things have passed away. Behold! All things have become new (2 Cor. 5:17). Go back to my first post in this thread for the biblical reasons why Lordship Salvation is what the Bible teaches. I will rightly charge you with Antinomianism (which is what the "free grace" movement is).

Scripture is antinomian as far as the believer is concerned, so you charging me with it is a blessing. It means I'm on the right track.

Christ is the END of the law for righteousness. He abolished the Law, the Law is not for the righteous....there are at least a dozen explicit statements in the New Testament showing that the Law is not in effect for the believer.

And I said ReformATION Theology because it encompasses more than what is properly called Reformed. It includes the misguided thoughts of the Arminian, too.

Also, I have no problem with Christians being expected to act like Christians, it seems YOU don't want Christians to act like Christians.

You believe Christians are sinners, but you don't want us acting like they're still sinners.

I believe Christians are righteous, APART from the Law. WITHOUT the Law. Irrespective of works. It's through the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit. It goes much, much further than simply being declared righteous...and then living your while life wondering if you're behaving enough to make it a reality.

 

[OldRegular]

Was the Apostle Paul wrong when he wrote the following:

Romans 6:1-23
1. What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2. God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3. Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4. Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6. Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7. For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9. Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17. But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19. I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20. For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21. What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Was the Apostle John wrong when he wrote:

1 John 2:1-6
1. My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2. And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3. And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

 

[JamesL]

Was the Apostle Paul wrong when he wrote the following:

No. But.....

Maybe you've misunderstood it? Maybe. Or maybe you have proper light to shed.

We'll never know unless you offer some commentary

 

[Reformed]

Scripture is antinomian as far as the believer is concerned...

Wrong. Scripture is never against God's law. The New Testament is not even against the Mosaic Law (the operative word being "against"). The Law (Mosaic) serves as a tutor to lead us to Christ (Gal. 3:34). I would hardly use the word against to describe it. And did you so easily dismiss the passages I cited? The biblical record stands against Antinomianism. The Moral Law existed before the Mosaic Law (c.f. Gen. 3 & 4). The Moral Law has never gone into obsolesce.

Christ is the END of the law for righteousness. He abolished the Law, the Law is not for the righteous....there are at least a dozen explicit statements in the New Testament showing that the Law is not in effect for the believer.

Christ fulfilled the legal obligations of the Mosaic Law in respect to sin (Col. 2:13, 14). The decrees of the Mosaic Law can never be used to indict believers. But believers are not exempt from acting like believers. We are called to a life of obedience. To say differently is not to suggest free grace but deficient grace. The reality is that even believers sin. Grace covers that. That is why we confess our sins (1 John 1:8, 9) and press on again in the Spirit. As Luther said, "All of life is repentance".

And I said ReformATION Theology because it encompasses more than what is properly called Reformed. It includes the misguided thoughts of the Arminian, too.

Thank you for the clarification.

Also, I have no problem with Christians being expected to act like Christians, it seems YOU don't want Christians to act like Christians.

How so? I have already said that even Christians sin and that sin is covered by grace. But the mark of a believer is repentance and then obedience.

You believe Christians are sinners, but you don't want us acting like they're still sinners.

Christians are not sinners. Christians are saints (1 Cor. 1:2). Christians are in the light, not darkness (1 Jn. 1:5-7). When a Christian sins he does so while in the light. So, no, I do not want Christians to act as though they are still sinners. I want them to act as children of the King of Kings! I want them to repent when they sin and move forward in their service to Christ. You want them to shrug sin off as though it is nothing. To you repentance is a foreign substance to be avoided.

 

[Deacon]

Grace is not FREE! It cost the crucifixion of Jesus Christ when: For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. {2 Corinthians 5:21}
Ephesians 4:17-32; 5:1-20
Ephesians 5:1-20
Romans 6:1-23

What we have here is a failure to communicate. ...and a failure to understand!

You've misinterpreted scripture by failing to differentiate the passages dealing with salvation and those that deal with Christlikeness. In other words you've confused the roles of justification and sanctification which leads you to a "Lordship gospel" demanding obedience as a proof of assurance.

Might I ask how long does a Christian have to wait after believing before they can have the assurance that their works are enough to merit their acceptance?

Another misunderstanding and prejudicial statement concerns the charge of "antinomianism" [lawlessness].

Believers that support Free Grace do not believe a believer has a license to sin (yes, we have read Romans 6!).

The Free Grace advocates teach that good works and holiness are God's desire for every Christian. This again deals with the issue of sanctification rather than our justification.

Rob

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

What we have here is a failure to communicate. ...and a failure to understand!

You've misinterpreted scripture by failing to differentiate the passages dealing with salvation and those that deal with Christlikeness. In other words you've confused the roles of justification and sanctification which leads you to a "Lordship gospel" demanding obedience as a proof of assurance.

Might I ask how long does a Christian have to wait after believing before they can have the assurance that their works are enough to merit their acceptance?

Another misunderstanding and prejudicial statement concerns the charge of "antinomianism" [lawlessness].

Believers that support Free Grace do not believe a believer has a license to sin (yes, we have read Romans 6!).

The Free Grace advocates teach that good works and holiness are God's desire for every Christian. This again deals with the issue of sanctification rather than our justification.

Rob

I am heartily sorry Rob and James that socalled Christian bretheren would resort to name calling and innuendo to defend a favorite doctrine,...but you you can bet that they are entrenched so you and all others will be castigated and painted as lawless Cretans & the implication will be that you are false Christians. Unfortunately that is the prevailing tactic and mercy doesn't enter into the equation. Shameful really.

 

[convicted1]

How often must you be obedient to God to demonstrate your love for him? 100% of the time? 85% percent of the time? What is our metric?

Listen Convicted....I agree that a changed heart produces changes in our life, but what is our metric? I don't have the answer, other than to say, being disobedient causes us a good degree of discomfort and tension. While I in no way think that God "winks" at our sin, transgression and disobedience, I also KNOW that he understands our plight and fallibility.

Brother Dave, what I mean is God expects us to be workers for Him. Go forth and preach the gospel....love thy neighbor...&c. Our works show the world who we're working for. Sinners do the works of the devil, christians do the works of Christ.

God didn't save us to do nothing, but to be workers to help expand His Kingdom...

 

[convicted1]

Willis, do you wash feet?

Yessiree....


What does this have to do with this discussion?

 

[convicted1]

I am heartily sorry Rob and James that socalled Christian bretheren would resort to name calling and innuendo to defend a favorite doctrine,...but you you can bet that they are entrenched so you and all others will be castigated and painted as lawless Cretans & the implication will be that you are false Christians. Unfortunately that is the prevailing tactic and mercy doesn't enter into the equation. Shameful really.

I have read every post and didn't see any name calling in this thread until you called us 'socalled christian brethren'...

ETA:Brother Reformed referred to Brother James as antinomian, but he avows that himself. He told me that once a while back...

 

[Deacon]

I am heartily sorry Rob and James that socalled Christian bretheren would resort to name calling and innuendo to defend a favorite doctrine,...but you you can bet that they are entrenched so you and all others will be castigated and painted as lawless Cretans & the implication will be that you are false Christians. Unfortunately that is the prevailing tactic and mercy doesn't enter into the equation. Shameful really.

No offence taken.

The conversation has been very civil and stimulating.

Rob

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Yessiree....


What does this have to do with this discussion?

Everything....you are a member of a church that takes seriously the display of humility first provided to you by the Lord. Don't forget it.

 

[convicted1]

Everything....you are a member of a church that takes seriously the display of humility first provided to you by the Lord. Don't forget it.

:thumbsup::thumbs::thumbsup::thumbs:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I have read every post and didn't see any name calling in this thread until you called us 'socalled christian brethren'...

ETA:Brother Reformed referred to Brother James as antinomian, but he avows that himself. He told me that once a while back...

I don't like his tone.....it reminds me of what so many others criticize in Calvinists.....I.E. an arrogant attitude.

 

[convicted1]

*****i goofed*****

 

[Reformed]

I don't like his tone.....it reminds me of what so many others criticize in Calvinists.....I.E. an arrogant attitude.

You do not have to like my attitude. My intention was not to be personally offensive, but if rebuking baseless accusations (such as JamesL made) gets your knickers in a twist then so be it.

Like I said, most of the time I ignore what James has to say. But he crossed the line this time and I responded vigorously. I did not expect flowery compliments for doing so.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You do not have to like my attitude. My intention was not to be personally offensive, but if rebuking baseless accusations (such as JamesL made) gets your knickers in a twist then so be it.

Like I said, most of the time I ignore what James has to say. But he crossed the line this time and I responded vigorously. I did not expect flowery compliments for doing so.

So you respond like the typical arrogant Calvinist??? Brilliant!:laugh:

 

[OldRegular]

I don't owe God obedience - the debt was paid.

The more I read this the more I see arrogance.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The more I read this the more I see arrogance.

Rob...:wavey:?,is this your idea of a stimulating conversation?!?:laugh: