Lordship salvation vs Easy believeism

[JamesL]

...Brother Reformed referred to Brother James as antinomian, but he avows that himself. He told me that once a while back...

However, he meant it as an insult. He probably never imagined I would receive that as a compliment.

Calling me an Antinomian was *possibly* intended to make me shrink back, to cower in shame.

But scripture is my defense. Paul called the Law "The Ministry of Death". Yeah, he was pretty much against the Law for believers.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The more I read this the more I see arrogance.

Sure he owes God obedience....in fact he owes God his life, bothnow and in eternity ....but that isn't what he is saying (I'm thinking). BUT I will allow him to answer exactly what he meant.

 

[JamesL]

Rob...:wavey:?,is this your idea of a stimulating conversation?!?:laugh:

:laugh:

lol

 

[OldRegular]

No. But.....

Maybe you've misunderstood it? Maybe. Or maybe you have proper light to shed.

We'll never know unless you offer some commentary

I understand it. You have already indicated your interpretation when you say:

Scripture is antinomian as far as the believer is concerned, so you charging me with it is a blessing. It means I'm on the right track.

1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

You might learn something from the obedience of Jesus Christ:

Hebrews 5:8, 9
8. Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9. And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

John Gill writes of Verse 9:

Ver. 9. And being made perfect, &c.] In his obedience, through sufferings; having completed his obedience, gone through his sufferings, and finished his sacrifice, and being perfectly glorified in heaven:

he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; the salvation Christ is the author of is "eternal"; it was resolved upon from eternity, and contrived in it; it was secured in the everlasting covenant, in which not only a Saviour was provided, but blessings both of grace and glory: and it is to eternity; and stands distinguished from a temporal salvation, and is opposed to eternal damnation; it is the salvation of the soul, which is immortal; and it takes in both grace and glory, which are of a durable nature; and the continuance of it is owing to the abiding and lasting virtue of Christ's person, blood, and righteousness: and Christ is the cause or author of this salvation, by his obedience and sufferings; by obeying the precept, and bearing the penalty of the law; by the price of his blood, and by the power of his arm; by his death and by his life; by his sacrifice on the cross, and by his intercession in heaven; by bestowing grace here, and glory hereafter: this shows that salvation is done, and that Christ is the sole author of it, and that all the glory of it should be given to him; and those to whom he is the author of salvation, are such as hearken to the voice of his Gospel, and obey hin in his ordinances. Christ is not the author of salvation to all men; all men do not obey him; all those whom Christ saves, he brings them to an obedience to himself; for his obedience for them does not exempt them from obedience to him, though their obedience is no cause of their salvation; Christ himself is the alone author of that.

 

[OldRegular]

Sure he owes God obedience....in fact he owes God his life, bothnow and in eternity ....but that isn't what he is saying (I'm thinking). BUT I will allow him to answer exactly what he meant.

This is what he said!

This means I do not need to obey to please God, Jesus did it all!
I don't owe God obedience - the debt was paid.

I posted 3-4 passages of Scripture that taught obedience of the believer. God did not have Paul and John write "filler material"!

Here are a few more:

John 14:15. If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:23. Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

John 15:10. If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.

1John 5:2. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

1John 5:3. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

 

[JamesL]

I understand it. You have already indicated your interpretation....

1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

Yet, Paul wrote that he wanted to know Him - fellowship

But the issue of eternal life is whether or not Christ knows you, not the other way around

 

[Reformed]

However, he meant it as an insult.

Once again...rubbish. I meant it as an accurate statement of what you are based on what you believe. You took it as an insult. That is not my fault.

 

[Deacon]

Things are getting a bit rougher at the ending of this thread.

Anyway...

"I don't owe God obedience - the debt was paid."

The more I read this the more I see arrogance.

Well the rest of the quote followed as such...

I don't owe God obedience - the debt was paid.
I'm obedient because I have been made new, I'm a child of God, I no longer walk in darkness but in light.
The works I do come from the work Christ did to redeem me and the Spirit that is within me.

If you knew me better you'd know I have so little to be arrogant about.
It was God that blessed me richly and lavishly with his blessings
It was Jesus that paid the price for my sin. and disobedience.
It is his obedience, even to the point of death that paid the full price for my redemption.
Now God calls me his child. He is my Father (the Jews tried to stone Jesus for that arrogance but that's what God calls us now!)
My obedience is not owed but given out of a growing relationship with my Abba.

Rob

 

[OldRegular]

Yet, Paul wrote that he wanted to know Him - fellowship

But the issue of eternal life is whether or not Christ knows you, not the other way around

I say the following attitude is sheer arrogance or ignorance. And I would hate to accuse a deacon of ignorance!

This means I do not need to obey to please God, Jesus did it all!
I don't owe God obedience - the debt was paid.

 

[JamesL]

Conversion -
But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God - Galatians 4:9


Fellowship -
That I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death - Philippians 3:10


There's a difference between knowing Him and being known by Him. Matthew 7....will Christ say "you never knew Me"?

Or "I never knew you"

 

[JamesL]

Once again...rubbish. I meant it as an accurate statement of what you are based on what you believe. You took it as an insult. That is not my fault.

Eh, no I did not take it as an insult. But that's ok. Paul was accused of being Antinomian - Romans 3:5-8

But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? The God who inflicts wrath is not unrighteous, is He? (I am speaking in human terms.) May it never be! For otherwise, how will God judge the world? But if through my lie the truth of God abounded to His glory, why am I also still being judged as a sinner? And why not say (as we are slanderously reported and as some claim that we say), “Let us do evil that good may come”? Their condemnation is just

May I suggest, that if you are not charged with Antinomianism, then you are not preaching the same gospel preached by Paul


I take it as a compliment. At least I know I was not ambiguous in sharing the biblical gospel

 

[OldRegular]

Things are getting a bit rougher at the ending of this thread.

Anyway...

"I don't owe God obedience - the debt was paid."
Well the rest of the quote followed as such...

If you knew me better you'd know I have so little to be arrogant about.
It was God that blessed me richly and lavishly with his blessings
It was Jesus that paid the price for my sin.
It is his obedience, even to the point of death that paid the full price for my redemption.
Now God calls me his child. He is my Father (the Jews tried to stone Jesus for that arrogance but that's what God calls us now!)
My obedience is not owed but given out of a growing relationship with my Abba.
Rob

I am not arguing that the sin debt was not paid, I am not saying that you are not His child and that He is not your Father. God is my Father, my Savior, and there is absolutely nothing I can do to repay Him. But I owe God everything. I owe Him obedience to His Word insofar as I am able to obey

However it strikes me as arrogant to say I don't owe God obedience! Perhaps I am putting something into the statement that is not there. I read it 3-4 times and replied in 2-3 posts before it hit me like it did. I guess I "flew off the handle" and if you believe an apology is in order you have it, most sincerely!

 

[JamesL]

... if you believe an apology is in order you have it, most sincerely!

Brother, I love your heart. It gets rough out here sometimes. Misunderstandings, tempers, apologies....all part of being brothers in Christ

 

[convicted1]

Brother, I love your heart. It gets rough out here sometimes. Misunderstandings, tempers, apologies....all part of being brothers in Christ

Unless we're in the room with each other and one is 6'8" 355. :laugh:

 

[Deacon]

I am not arguing that the sin debt was not paid, I am not saying that you are not His child and that He is not your Father. God is my Father, my Savior, and there is absolutely nothing I can do to repay Him. But I owe God everything. I owe Him obedience to His Word insofar as I am able to obey

However it strikes me as arrogant to say I don't owe God obedience! Perhaps I am putting something into the statement that is not there. I read it 3-4 times and replied in 2-3 posts before it hit me like it did. I guess I "flew off the handle" and if you believe an apology is in order you have it, most sincerely!

No problem OldRegular, I said it to echo a point made in Colossians 2

And although you were dead in the trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, he made you alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, having destroyed the certificate of indebtedness in ordinances against us, which was hostile to us, and removed it out of the way by nailing it to the cross. Colossians 2:13–14 (LEB)

It was written to sound outrageous and so I understand your point too.
Truly nothing we could do could ever compensate him for the work he has done for us. Amazing grace!

My point has been that our obedience is not a mandatory obligation but out of a devotion to God.

Rob

 

[Reformed]

Eh, no I did not take it as an insult. But that's ok. Paul was accused of being Antinomian - Romans 3:5-8

But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? The God who inflicts wrath is not unrighteous, is He? (I am speaking in human terms.) May it never be! For otherwise, how will God judge the world? But if through my lie the truth of God abounded to His glory, why am I also still being judged as a sinner? And why not say (as we are slanderously reported and as some claim that we say), “Let us do evil that good may come”? Their condemnation is just

May I suggest, that if you are not charged with Antinomianism, then you are not preaching the same gospel preached by Paul


I take it as a compliment. At least I know I was not ambiguous in sharing the biblical gospel

You misunderstand Paul. Paul is refuting Antinomianism in Romans 3:8. He does the same three chapters later:

Romans 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?

I am not sure you understand what Antinomianism is. It is not a compliment. It is a false teaching, one that Paul condemned in Romans 6. You are trying to coop the term as a compliment with your understanding that the Law has been fulfilled in Christ (which I addressed in a previous post).

The false teaching of Antinomianism teaches that there are no moral laws binding on Christians. Matt Slick, the founder of CARM (Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry; not a Calvinist organization) gives a good definition of Antinomianism:

The word antinomianism comes from the Greek anti, against, and nomos, law. It is the unbiblical practice of living without regard to the righteousness of God, using God's grace as a license to sin, and trusting grace to cleanse of sin. In other words, since grace is infinite and we are saved by grace, then we can sin all we want and still be saved. It is wrong because even though as Christians we are not under the Law (Rom. 6:14), we still fulfill the Law in the Law of love (Rom. 13:8, 10; Gal. 5:14; 6:2). We are to love God with all our heart, soul, strength, and mind, and our neighbor as ourselves (Luke 10:27) and, thereby, avoid the offense of sin which cost God His only begotten Son. Paul speaks against the concept of antinomianism in Rom. 6:1-2: "Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?" We are not to use the grace of God as a means of sin. Instead, we are to be controlled by the love of God and in that way bear the fruit of the Holy Spirit (Gal. 5:22-25).

I would quote some good Reformed sources on Antinomianism but they will only be dismissed because they are Reformed sources.

Someone in this thread quaffed at the idea that Christians are called to obedience. Have they overlooked Phil. 1:6; Mat. 5:14, 1 Pet. 1:14; 1 Pet. 4:2 et. al.? Or perhaps they forgot that the biblical writers called themselves slaves to God: Jas. 1:1; Rom. 1:1; 2 Pet. 1:1. Not to mention passages such as 2 Thes. 3:14; 2 Cor. 10:5, 6; Rom. 16:19; Phile. 1:21 et. al.

1 Peter 1: 13-16 Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. As obedient children, do not be conformed to the former lusts which were yours in your ignorance, but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior; because it is written, “YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY.”

In the above passage the Apostle Peter calls on his audience to prepare their minds for action, to keep sober in spirit, and fix their hope completely on the grace to be brought to them through Jesus Christ. Here we see grace being manifest, but a grace that is girded for action. This is what God expects from His children.

Are we forgiven from sin? Yes.

Are we free from the penalties of the Mosaic Law? Yes.

Does God expect us to live obediently? Yes.

Does God know that we are still imperfect while in our natural body and prone to sin? Yes.

Does grace cover the sins we commit as believers? Yes.

Are we to repent and push forward in service to God after we sin? Yes.

How are any of things unbiblical?

 

[plain_n_simple]

So do you believe in Lordship salvation or Easy believeism or both? Please explain why or why not.

Total easy believism cause it's simple like the gospel imo

 

[JamesL]

You misunderstand Paul. Paul is refuting Antinomianism in Romans 3:8. He does the same three chapters later:

Romans 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?

I don't know why you want to jump 3 chapters ahead of what I quoted from Paul ??

Besides, I never said we SHOULD offer our members to sin. But "shouldn't" is much different from what Lordship Salvation teaches. According to Lordship Salvation, if you do then you never were saved.

Bull hockey

I am not sure you understand what Antinomianism is. It is not a compliment. It is a false teaching, one that Paul condemned in Romans 6. You are trying to coop the term as a compliment with your understanding that the Law has been fulfilled in Christ (which I addressed in a previous post).

I don't think you understand what Christ did. He CAME to fulfill the Law, and He DIED to abolish it. And you will search in vain for any New Testament teaching to follow the Law.

Why do you think Paul called it the ministry of death?

The false teaching of Antinomianism teaches that there are no moral laws binding on Christians. Matt Slick, the founder of CARM (Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry; not a Calvinist organization) gives a good definition of Antinomianism:

I notice you couldn't attach any apostle's name to that strangeness.

Anti = against
Antinomian is against Law, which is the definition of grace.

would quote some good Reformed sources on Antinomianism but they will only be dismissed because they are Reformed sources.

Not because they are Reformed, but because it's not taught by the apostles. Leave your traditions, embrace scripture.

Someone in this thread quaffed at the idea that Christians are called to obedience...

Hmmm, ok.

Obedience to what? Or Who? For what purpose?

If you think you've been called to serve the ministry of death, chiseled in stone, you are against Christ.

 

[JamesL]

Total easy believism cause it's simple like the gospel imo

However, as evidenced by some here, simply believing is anything but easy.

We have to relinquish the idea that Christ's death is enough. That ain't easy

 

[Reformed]

I don't know why you want to jump 3 chapters ahead of what I quoted from Paul ??

Besides, I never said we SHOULD offer our members to sin. But "shouldn't" is much different from what Lordship Salvation teaches. According to Lordship Salvation, if you do then you never were saved.

Bull hockey



I don't think you understand what Christ did. He CAME to fulfill the Law, and He DIED to abolish it. And you will search in vain for any New Testament teaching to follow the Law.

Why do you think Paul called it the ministry of death?



I notice you couldn't attach any apostle's name to that strangeness.

Anti = against
Antinomian is against Law, which is the definition of grace.



Not because they are Reformed, but because it's not taught by the apostles. Leave your traditions, embrace scripture.



Hmmm, ok.

Obedience to what? Or Who? For what purpose?

If you think you've been called to serve the ministry of death, chiseled in stone, you are against Christ.

I suggest you bring your bull....hockey, and go back and read my past posts. See if you can treat with scripture.