I got a question! I got confirmed from a catholic church i recentley moved to a new small town and all they have here is luthern churches. Is that kinda bad to just switch into going to a luthern church? Its still learning Gods will but idk they do things so much more differently id assume. Kinda nervous about going because of it. But i wanna start going.
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Lordship salvation vs Easy believeism
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PreachTony
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Kind of off OP here, nate. You should consider starting a new thread for this question.
JamesL
This post has totally missed the biblical teaching of salvation. As written, this post is a denial of biblical salvation.
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This post has totally missed the biblical teaching of salvation. As written, this post is a denial of biblical salvation.
If you understood biblical salvation, you would be ashamed of yourself for having offered such drivel.
See, that's what happens when your faith rests upon the supposed truth contained in circles. Geometry theology...
Freemasons employ it, too. Pyramids. See where it got them?
:wavey::laugh::laugh:that is the problem if you don't understand the circles you're not ready to make any progress
everyone who believes of course. No one here believes that salvation comes to those who behave. We would never be able to obtain salvation. Works are only evidence of belief. They do not cause belief. They don't keep you believing. they just show evidence that you do believe.
I would beg to differ. Anyone who follows the Westminster Confession or the London Baptist Confession does absolutely believe that salvation is to those who behave.
Both state explicitly that the end of our good works is eternal life.
Icon has quoted the writer of Hebrews - without holiness, no one will see God.
She I asked him to elaborate...what does it mean to see God?
I got several non-answers and a Hal dozen copy/paste jobs which I wasn't about to trudge through.
Icon absolutely thinks that salvation I to those who behave. He just isn't honest enough to say it plainly.
That's why I've said, numerous times, that Calvinists are nothing but Arminians in disguise
And if you have to do something to gain that salvation, you are even beyond Arminians......your a Papist.
was your name inscribed in the Lambs book of life from the very beginning & are you not a chosen member of the flock & did not Christ not die on the cross to make you clean of your sins (Past, Present & Future)? Sure you do good things because your of Him....you've been given a new heart & conscience so you do them because you see Christ in the least, but to do good deeds because you feel you have to to be justified is ridiculous.:laugh:
Allow me to help you dispel your ignorance of the Reformed view of soteriology, sanctification, and good works. I am not going to quote the WCF because I am not a Presbyterian.
I am assuming (a big jump, I know) that you know how to read and comprehend. Words mean things, even to those who are blinded by their presuppositions.
I have underlined, put in bold, and italic those portions of the 1689 Second London Baptist Confession of Faith that would have anything at all to do with good works. I do not think they mean what you think they mean.
Before I go to the confession, what does scripture have to say about this?
James 2:21-24 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
New American Standard Bible: 1995 update. (1995). (Jas 2:21–24). LaHabra, CA: The Lockman Foundation.
What are we to make of James? Is he actually saying we are justified by works? No. He is making the point that our faith is proven by our works. In other words, works make our profession of faith credible. In fact, we were created for the purpose of good works:
Ephesians 2:10 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
New American Standard Bible: 1995 update. (1995). (Eph 2:10). LaHabra, CA: The Lockman Foundation.
Lordship Salvation is nothing more than confessing these biblical truths.
Now on to the confession that you indicated state the end of our good works is eternal life:
1689 LBC
Chapter 7 Of God's Decree
7.2 Moreover, man having brought himself under the curse of the law by his fall, it pleased the Lord to make a covenant of grace, wherein he freely offereth unto sinners life and salvation by Jesus Christ, requiring of them faith in him, that they may be saved; and promising to give unto all those that are ordained unto eternal life, his Holy Spirit, to make them willing and able to believe.
( Genesis 2:17; Galatians 3:10; Romans 3:20, 21; Romans 8:3; Mark 16:15, 16; John 3:16; Ezekiel 36:26, 27; John 6:44, 45; Psalms 110:3 )
Chapter 16: Of Good Works
1. Good works are only such as God hath commanded in his Holy Word, and not such as without the warrant thereof are devised by men out of blind zeal, or upon any pretence of good intentions.
( Micah 6:8; Hebrews 13:21; Matthew 15:9; Isaiah 29:13 )
2. These good works, done in obedience to God's commandments, are the fruits and evidences of a true and lively faith; and by them believers manifest their thankfulness, strengthen their assurance, edify their brethren, adorn the profession of the gospel, stop the mouths of the adversaries, and glorify God, whose workmanship they are, created in Christ Jesus thereunto, that having their fruit unto holiness they may have the end eternal life.
( James 2:18, 22; Psalms 116:12, 13; 1 John 2:3, 5; 2 Peter 1:5-11; Matthew 5:16; 1 Timothy 6:1; 1 Peter 2:15; Philippians 1:11; Ephesians 2:10; Romans 6:22 )
3. Their ability to do good works is not at all of themselves, but wholly from the Spirit of Christ; and that they may be enabled thereunto, besides the graces they have already received, there is necessary an actual influence of the same Holy Spirit, to work in them to will and to do of his good pleasure; yet they are not hereupon to grow negligent, as if they were not bound to perform any duty, unless upon a special motion of the Spirit, but they ought to be diligent in stirring up the grace of God that is in them.
( John 15:4, 5; 2 Corinthians 3:5; Philippians 2:13; Philippians 2:12; Hebrews 6:11, 12; Isaiah 64:7 )
4. They who in their obedience attain to the greatest height which is possible in this life, are so far from being able to supererogate, and to do more than God requires, as that they fall short of much which in duty they are bound to do.
( Job 9:2, 3; Galatians 5:17; Luke 17:10 )
5. We cannot by our best works merit pardon of sin or eternal life at the hand of God, by reason of the great disproportion that is between them and the glory to come, and the infinite distance that is between us and God, whom by them we can neither profit nor satisfy for the debt of our former sins; but when we have done all we can, we have done but our duty, and are unprofitable servants; and because as they are good they proceed from his Spirit, and as they are wrought by us they are defiled and mixed with so much weakness and imperfection, that they cannot endure the severity of God's punishment.
( Romans 3:20; Ephesians 2:8, 9; Romans 4:6; Galatians 5:22, 23; Isaiah 64:6; Psalms 143:2 )
6. Yet notwithstanding the persons of believers being accepted through Christ, their good works also are accepted in him; not as though they were in this life wholly unblameable and unreprovable in God's sight, but that he, looking upon them in his Son, is pleased to accept and reward that which is sincere, although accompanied with many weaknesses and imperfections.
( Ephesians 1:6; 1 Peter 2:5; Matthew 25:21, 23; Hebrews 6:10 )
7. Works done by unregenerate men, although for the matter of them they may be things which God commands, and of good use both to themselves and others; yet because they proceed not from a heart purified by faith, nor are done in a right manner according to the word, nor to a right end, the glory of God, they are therefore sinful, and cannot please God, nor make a man meet to receive grace from God, and yet their neglect of them is more sinful and displeasing to God.
( 2 Kings 10:30; 1 Kings 21:27, 29; Genesis 4:5; Hebrews 11:4, 6; 1 Corinthians 13:1; Matthew 6:2, 5; Amos 5:21, 22; Romans 9:16; Titus 3:5; Job 21:14, 15; Matthew 25:41-43 )
A very fine post ....Reformed...
it reminds me of this verse in Titus
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.
:thumbs:
JamesL
What you fail to grasp is that it is not either or, but both....
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.
When I said you have no grasp on biblical salvation with your antinomian post, these are the kind of verses that render your ideas quite foolish and unbiblical.
We are saved unto good works which are ordained
I
The fact that you are to lazy to "trudge through" some links shows clearly you have no desire for truth but just seek to be disruptive.
the links I offer are solid...that you do not use them is reflected by your unbiblical notions. You have no appetite for true teaching by learned teachers God has given to His church.
Like others here...that is between you and God. Do not ask questions if you do not want answers. Your foolish comments which are growing like mold are because you do not pay attention to saints who have gone on before us.
Cal and Arminian the same/ Christians are antinomian, and other such gems are beyond nonsense and not even worthy of discussion . Only unstable persons would entertain such thoughts as it would comfort them in their sin.
While I get accused of several things here...failing to speak plainly about a topic is not one of them.:thumbs:
A totally idiotic statement that is not worth spending any time on.
What you fail to grasp is that it is not either or, but both....
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.
When I said you have no grasp on biblical salvation with your antinomian post, these are the kind of verses that render your ideas quite foolish and unbiblical.
That is the scriptural teaching of salvation...we are saved from our sins...not in them and continuing to live in sin...we are saved from sin.
We are saved unto good works which are ordained
yes.... it is not optional but essential:thumbs:
I
The fact that you are to lazy to "trudge through" some links shows clearly you have no desire for truth but just seek to be disruptive.
the links I offer are solid...that you do not use them is reflected by your unbiblical notions. You have no appetite for true teaching by learned teachers God has given to His church.
Like others here...that is between you and God. Do not ask questions if you do not want answers. Your foolish comments which are growing like mold are because you do not pay attention to saints who have gone on before us.
Cal and Arminian the same/ Christians are antinomian, and other such gems are beyond nonsense and not even worthy of discussion . Only unstable persons would entertain such thoughts as it would comfort them in their sin.
While I get accused of several things here...failing to speak plainly about a topic is not one of them.:thumbs:
A totally idiotic statement that is not worth spending any time on.
Yeah. Nuff said.
It says explicitly that the end of good works is eternal life.
And so does Westminster, whether you quote it or not.
Our good works are the evidence of grace's work in us....because grace works. John 15:16, 2 Peter 1:10, James 2:26, & Matthew 7:21.
And according to Westminster and the London Baptist Confession, the end of our good works is eternal life. See the above quote by our favorite pope basher
Rome repackaged. Protestant is simply mad at his daddy
I am not using hyperbole or sarcasm here. I honestly do think you have a problem with reading the English language.
The confession states: "These good works, done in obedience to God's commandments, are the fruits and evidences of a true and lively faith". In other words the works are evidence of the thing, not the thing itself. That is what Ephesians 2:10 is all about. But I notice you have not addressed the scriptural proofs provided previously.
Let me use an analogy. Follow along here. I will try to type real s-l-o-w.
You just purchased a computer at the local Best Buy. You have it for one week, turn it on, and nothing. It is covered under a year warranty. You bring it back to the store for service by those white shirted and black tied Geek Squad techs. What do they ask you for? Your r-e-c-e-i-p-t (I told you I would type slow). Your receipt is proof of the purchase, not the purchase itself. The good works of a Christian are a similar proof of purchase (the purchase of our salvation being made by Christ). How so? Well, Ephesians 2:10 states plainly that "we are His workmanship, created by Christ Jesus for good works that He prepared beforehand that we should walk in them". We were created for good works. Good works are not just a nice thing we tack on to being born again. Good works are our purpose. The absence of those good works belay our profession. After all, if God created Christians to do a thing, and that thing is not done, could it be possible the person is not a Christian? Only God can answer that, but I would be fearful of any profession that displays no change in behavior or action.
You quoted this part of the confession also, "that having their fruit unto holiness they may have the end eternal life." It is part of the same sentence as the previous quote, so it would make no sense for the framers of the confession to contradict themselves. It is not the fruit that ends with eternal life, it is the fruit unto holiness. What the framers are saying is that fruit unto holiness is the evidence of the same. Works do not save. The 17th century Particular Baptists did not believe it. Somehow you think they did. I have no other choice but to chalk it up to a confused mind that believes up is down, left is right, and right is wrong.
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I thought you were ignoring me.
I am changing my reply. My earlier comments were not charitable.
James, I personally have a difficult time interacting with you. Perhaps it is the way I am wired. You arguments, in my opinion, are not logical. I am going to finish this thread and then I think it is best just not to interact with your posts. Think of it as a blessing. You will not have to put up with me and you will save yourself a lot of stress.
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exactly. No one here believes we are saved by "behaving" or through obedience. God saves us, we don't save ourselves.
If you're an advocate of Lordship Salvation, and subscribe to that warped view of repentance, then you so believe we are saved through behavior.
Here's the mantra - turn from sin toward faith in Christ
How does the FROM relate to works, but the TO relates to faith?
It doesn't, unless you redefine faith to include works. And that's what the Lordship cult does.
Why do you think they harp on this idea of two kinds of faith (saving and spurious)?
Why do they say that faith without commitment is nothing but mental assent to facts?
Why do they say that genuine faith always includes commitment?
What they mean is that faith is nothing but knowing facts, but becomes "saving" when we put works with the facts
In the Lordship mindset, the two kinds of faith are:
Facts only
Facts + action
Yet neither facts nor action ever accessed the grace of God. If you have this "mental assent + obedience" view of faith, then you do believe that salvation is to those who behave.
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