Lordship Salvation?

[npetreley]

The young man's problem was covetousness. He loved and worshipped his wealth above God.

Yet he believed that he followed the law from his youth, and some people here think the statement was true simply because Jesus didn't contradict him directly. (He contradicted him indirectly by asking him to do something he wouldn't do.)

Yet that's not the most amazing thing about what people say regarding this passage. They say this rich young ruler was saved because he followed the law from his youth. What gospel is that? If you can get saved by following the law (from your youth or otherwise), who needs Jesus?

 

[npetreley]

I fully believe that this is important enough that had the man been lying Jesus would have made that abundantly clear.

Well, feel free to forumlate doctrines based on what YOU think Jesus would or would not have done. I call THAT speculation. I'm sticking to the text. Of all the things Jesus could have told him to do, He told him to do the one thing he wouldn't agree to do. That's what I call exposing a liar.

 

[J. Jump]

(He contradicted him indirectly by asking him to do something he wouldn't do.)

That is "your" speculation. There is NOTHING in the text to suggest that to be so.

I'm sticking to the text.

No you are not. The text doesn't call him a liar.

And I'm not speculating. The Bible says let your yes be yes and your no be no. So again when someone says something it should be treated as truth unless it is shown to be untruth.

That's what I call exposing a liar.

Say I'm speculating that's fine, but please don't say you are sticking to the text, because you simply are not. And just because "you think" His actions expose a liar doesn't make it so.

 

[Amy.G]

The young man's problem was covetousness. He loved and worshipped his wealth above God.

I wrote a chapter on this one incident. I did a synopsis at my blog. See The Rich Young Ruler.


LM

Thank you. I was beginning to think I'd lost all understanding of scripture. I thought this was the way most people interpreted this passage, but obviously not.

 

[Amy.G]

JJump:

EXACTLY! That's the whole point that I have been trying to make. Eternal life and the kingdom are the exact same thing. Thefore eternal life does not mean what most of Christendom would have us believe it means today.

It would be better understood as age-lasting life. It is life for the age. What age? Well the age to come. The Kingdom Age. It's not forever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever. It's speaking of the coming 1,000-year reign of the Messiah.

So now you're saying that eternal doesn't really mean eternal? This just keeps getting better and better.

 

[npetreley]

Thank you. I was beginning to think I'd lost all understanding of scripture. I thought this was the way most people interpreted this passage, but obviously not.

I'm with you on this, Amy. I think the passage is very clear.

 

[npetreley]

So now you're saying that eternal doesn't really mean eternal? This just keeps getting better and better.

If you run the passage through the kingdom salvation decoder ring, you'll find that "eternal life" has fine print that says, "good for a limited time only", and that "kept the law since my youth" is the one instance in all of human history where someone must have been saved because he SAYS he kept the law -- even though he cops out a minute later because he's greedy.

 

[Lacy Evans]

JJump:

So now you're saying that eternal doesn't really mean eternal? This just keeps getting better and better.

Genesis 49:26 The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren.

Habakkuk 3:6 He stood, and measured the earth: he beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills did bow: his ways are everlasting.

Will the hills in question last through the final destruction of the Earth?


Eternal does mean "eternal." Your definition of eternal is too narrow, and fails to take context into account.

[URL="http://dictionary.reference.com/help/ahd4.html"]American Heritage Dictionary

- Cite This Source e·ter·nal

[/URL] (ĭ-tûr'nəl) Pronunciation Key
adj.

1. Being without beginning or end; existing outside of time. See Synonyms at infinite.
2. Continuing without interruption; perpetual.
3. Forever true or changeless: eternal truths.
4. Seemingly endless; interminable. See Synonyms at ageless, continual.
5. Of or relating to spiritual communion with God, especially in the afterlife.

WordNet - Cite This Source eternal
adjective1. continuing forever or indefinitely; "the ageless themes of love and revenge"; "eternal truths"; "life everlasting"; "hell's perpetual fires"; "the unending bliss of heaven" [syn: ageless] 2. tiresomely long; seemingly without end; "endless debates"; "an endless conversation"; "the wait seemed eternal"; "eternal quarreling"; "an interminable sermon" [syn: endless]
WordNet® 3.0, © 2006 by Princeton University.

Leviticus 16:34 And this shall be an everlasting statute unto you, to make an atonement for the children of Israel for all their sins once a year. And he did as the Lord commanded Moses.

I think this "everlasting statute" has officially ended, with Christ's perfect sacrifice of atonement.

Nahum 3:9 Ethiopia and Egypt were her strength, and it was infinite; Put and Lubim were thy helpers.

"So now you're telling me infinite doesn't mean "infinite".

Exodus 21:6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

Or 'till he died, whichever comes first, huh? Or does he have to serve him in the next life? What if he was saved and his master wasn't? OH MY? Or perhaps forever doesn't mean forever? Or perhaps we forgot definition #3 as a possible definition.

Lacy

 

[Amy.G]

If you run the passage through the kingdom salvation decoder ring, you'll find that "eternal life" has fine print that says, "good for a limited time only", and that "kept the law since my youth" is the one instance in all of human history where someone must have been saved because he SAYS he kept the law -- even though he cops out a minute later because he's greedy.

:laugh:

And as far as keeping the law goes, Paul must have lied when he said "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God".

I think the point is that Jesus was making it clear that nothing we can do will save us, even keeping the law, because even if we keep the letter of the law, we still sin in our hearts. We can't reach the holiness of God. That's why He goes on to say "with man it is impossible, but with God all things are possible". Some interpret this verse as meaning we can do "anything" because "all" things are possible with God, but Jesus was clearly speaking about salvation. For man, salvation is impossible to achieve on his own merit. He must rely on the righteousness imputed to him by Christ.

Sorry, didn't mean to give a sermon. :laugh:

 

[Dale-c]

I think the point is that Jesus was making it clear that nothing we can do will save us, even keeping the law, because even if we keep the letter of the law, we still sin in our hearts.

Excellent point AMy. WHich is why we can't go sinless even as Christians because until our sin nature is eradicated completely, we will always have sin.

 

[Lacy Evans]

It is impossible to determine the meaning of a word, especially a multi-faceted word without taking context into consideration. To jump to the most absolute meaning of the word when context dictates otherwise, is not wise.

Lacy

 

[EdSutton]

Ed, we must have got our wires crossed somewhere 'cause I agree that we can't give God anything for our salvation. Maybe I hit my head too hard on that nail!

Maybe you did hit your head too hard on the nail. It could have affected your memory, maybe.

From post #89:

When we come to God for salvation, we are willing to give anything for it because we have realized our sinful and depraved lives.

Once again, as I posted elsewhere,

"The Bible doesn't talk like this!"

It never says any such thing.

The Bible does say we were dead in trespases and sins. The Bible says all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. The Bible says the wages of sin is death. And on and on we could go with the actual statements made in Scripture.

In fact, I will add a couple more. The Bible says, quoting Jesus, "He that believes in Me has everlasting life." (Did you note there is no other caveat, here, in Jo. 6:47?) Again, "For God so loved the world, that He gave..." - you know the rest, I hope and presume. Again, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this thing is not of yourselves; it is the gift of God - and not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for the purpose of good works, which God has designed beforehand that we should walk in them." (That is in the future subjunctive tense and mood, I believe, and doesn't say we will walk in them, automatically or otherwise, BTW.)

That is why I posted what I did. With all respect, look carefully at the teachings of Lordship Salvation, search the Scriptures, and clearly think them through. You may be surprised at what you actually find. And this is absolutely true when, whether, and what I, or anyone else, teaches about anything. Don't take my word for it; instead, take God's word.

Ed

 

[Amy.G]

Lacy:

Eternal does mean "eternal." Your definition of eternal is too narrow, and fails to take context into account.

The word eternal used in Luke 18:18 means forever, everlasting.

It does not mean for a period of 1000 years.

That is the context as confirmed by Strongs. Or are you going to say Strongs is inaccurate?

 

[npetreley]

:laugh:

And as far as keeping the law goes, Paul must have lied when he said "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God".

I think the point is that Jesus was making it clear that nothing we can do will save us, even keeping the law, because even if we keep the letter of the law, we still sin in our hearts. We can't reach the holiness of God. That's why He goes on to say "with man it is impossible, but with God all things are possible". Some interpret this verse as meaning we can do "anything" because "all" things are possible with God, but Jesus was clearly speaking about salvation. For man, salvation is impossible to achieve on his own merit. He must rely on the righteousness imputed to him by Christ.

Sorry, didn't mean to give a sermon. :laugh:

No problem. Good sermon. I agree 100%. What I find really funny is that if someone came on here and said they swear in Jesus' name that they have followed the law since their youth, how do you think people would react:

Multiple choice:

1. Having His name invoked, Jesus would surely appear and expose him as a liar if he were actually lying. So if Jesus doesn't suddenly appear and call him a liar, the person must be telling the truth. Not only that, but he can't possibly be self-deceived and simply BELIEVES he followed the law. And even though you can't get saved by following the law, we owe it to him to grant special dispensation and assume that his self-testimony (the testimony of a single person, no less) must be hard evidence that he is saved. Anything he says or does in the next 5 minutes must be ignored as further evidence.

2. The person is lying.

3. The person is crazy.

 

[Amy.G]

Maybe you did hit your head too hard on the nail. It could have affected your memory, maybe.

From post #89:

Once again, as I posted elsewhere,

"The Bible doesn't talk like this!"

It never says any such thing.

The Bible does say we were dead in trespases and sins. The Bible says all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. The Bible says the wages of sin is death. And on and on we could go with the actual statements made in Scripture.

In fact, I will add a couple more. The Bible says, quoting Jesus, "He that believes in Me has everlasting life." (Did you note there is no other caveat, here, in Jo. 6:47?) Again, "For God so loved the world, that He gave..." - you know the rest, I hope and presume. Again, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this thing is not of yourselves; it is the gift of God - and not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for the purpose of good works, which God has designed beforehand that we should walk in them." (That is in the future subjunctive tense and mood, I believe, and doesn't say we will walk in them, automatically or otherwise, BTW.)

That is why I posted what I did. With all respect, look carefully at the teachings of Lordship Salvation, search the Scriptures, and clearly think them through. You may be surprised at what you actually find. And this is true when, whether, and what I, or anyone else, teaches about anything.

Ed

Ed, I do not believe in Lordship salvation. I believe as you do. I was merely pointing out our motives when we cry out to God for salvation, not that God requires anything of us other than to believe. If I say that I would have given anything to be saved, I only mean that God was most important to me. Also, when I was discussing this it wasn't in response to the Lordship salvation issue. I was speaking to JJump about the absurdity of the M.E. doctrine. I was trying to point out that the passage in question (Luke 18:18) was speaking about eternal life, not the millennial kingdom as JJump believes.
I hope this clears things up.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Lacy:


The word eternal used in Luke 18:18 means forever, everlasting.

It does not mean for a period of 1000 years.

That is the context as confirmed by Strongs. Or are you going to say Strongs is inaccurate?

Did you even read my post? Strongs uses English definitions. I have already proven (from scripture) that your "definitions" are very proper synonyms in that they convey a long amount of time. an "Age-lasting" amount of time, if you will.

Must we debate in two different languages? Eon!

American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source e·on also ae·on

(ē'ŏn', ē'ən) Pronunciation Key
n.

1. An indefinitely long period of time; an age.

Strong's Number: 165
Transliterated: aion
Phonetic: ahee-ohn'

Text: from the same as 104; properly, an age; by extension, perpetuity (also past); by implication, the world; specially (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): --age, course, eternal, (for) ever(-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the , while the) world (began, without end). Compare 5550.

It doesn't matter which language you choose, in either the word (eternal, aion) must be defined by context because,in either, it is never absolute.

 

[npetreley]

17 Now as He was going out on the road, one came running, knelt before Him, and asked Him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?”

Oh yeah, the context really demands that it should have been translated, "What shall I do that I may get an extra 1,000 years in the coming kingdom?"

That's SO clear. BAD translators (thwack), bad!

And Jesus and the ruler had such an immediate meeting of minds, too, because the ruler must have known the deity of Christ and received Him as savior. That's why Jesus responded immediately with, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God."

 

[Lacy Evans]

Oh yeah, the context really demands that it should have been translated, "What shall I do that I may get an extra 1,000 years in the coming kingdom?"

That's SO clear. BAD translators (thwack), bad!

And Jesus and the ruler had such an immediate meeting of minds, too, because the ruler must have known the deity of Christ and received Him as savior. That's why Jesus responded immediately with, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God."

The translators got it exactly right, context and all. It's not their fault if we overlook it.

Luke 18:18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
Luke 18:24 And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!

Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mark 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

Life (Eternal Life) in this context is Christ's coming Kingdom

Revelation 20:4-5
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Which lasts, according to Rev 20, 1000 years.

 

[Amy.G]

The translators got it exactly right, context and all. It's not their fault if we overlook it.



Life (Eternal Life) in this context is Christ's coming Kingdom



Which lasts, according to Rev 20, 1000 years.

As we have proven, the word "eternal" in Luke 18:18 means forever. (Strongs 166) A 1000 year period is NOT forever or eternal. It doesn't fit.

 

[Lacy Evans]

As we have proven, the word "eternal" in Luke 18:18 means forever. (Strongs 166) A 1000 year period is NOT forever or eternal. It doesn't fit.

It fits if you use the Greek word "Aion" or the English word "Eternal" (Which both mean "age-lasting") to describe an "Age" which lasts 1000 years.