Lordship Salvation?

[Amy.G]

It is if you use the Greek word "Aion" or the English word "Eternal" (Which both mean "age-lasting") to describe an "Age" which lasts 1000 years.

Only if you redefine the word to suit your theology. Nowhere does Strongs refer to eternal as 1000 years.

 

[2 Timothy2:1-4]

No where in scripture is "eternal" limited to 1000 yrs. And the Kingdom of God is not limited to that neither. The Greek word for Kingdom of God is basileia. And it speaks to the right to rule or authority not the physical kingdom. There are two greek words for eternal. The first is Aidios which means everlasting. The second is Aionios which means eternal in the sense of no begining and no end. it takes some real gymnastics to place the words "eternal life" into the 1000 years. There is no context in which one could make that happen. Maybe folks should stay away from chitwood and study scripture for themselves.

 

[EdSutton]

Ed, I do not believe in Lordship salvation. I believe as you do. I was merely pointing out our motives when we cry out to God for salvation, not that God requires anything of us other than to believe. If I say that I would have given anything to be saved, I only mean that God was most important to me. Also, when I was discussing this it wasn't in response to the Lordship salvation issue. I was speaking to JJump about the absurdity of the M.E. doctrine. I was trying to point out that the passage in question (Luke 18:18) was speaking about eternal life, not the millennial kingdom as JJump believes.
I hope this clears things up.

Well, we are getting there (painfully) :BangHead: in the "clearing things up Department", I hope, but we still have a few yards to go, I think.

Where does Scripture say anything about what motives are 'involved' or 'necessary' for salvation?? None that I find.

I believe there is one thing, and one thing only, that is necessary from us in order to receive eternal life, i.e. salvation. Wanna' guess what it is? On second thought, I will answer that myself. That 'one thing' is to receive it. And that 'receiving' is done by believe/faith/repent/repentance, and that alone. That is all the same thing, BTW, with repent being the 'flip side', so to speak, of believe. "metanoeO" and "pisteuO" are the two verbs so rendered in this manner.

Again, please think about what you are saying, and think it through, carefully. It helps keep down confusion, and as Scripture says, does not lead to 'the trumpet giving an uncertain call.'

It is getting late, Language Cop has already turned in, and I'm tired, so I might post something I did not really intend to say. But thankfully I did not here (With the second try!). G'nite all.

Ed

 

[2 Timothy2:1-4]

God can't require one to "believe" that would be works.

 

[EdSutton]

God can't require one to "believe" that would be works.

Guess I did say something I did not really intend. I should have said "necessary" instead of "require". I'm gonna' edit the last post to correct that. Thanks!

Ed

 

[Amy.G]

Well, we are getting there (painfully) :BangHead: in the "clearing things up Department", I hope, but we still have a few yards to go, I think.

Where does Scripture say anything about what motives are 'involved' or 'necessary' for salvation?? None that I find.
I believe there is one thing and one thing only that is required from us in order to receive eternal life, i.e. salvation. Wanna' guess what it is? On second thought, I will answer that myself. That 'one thing' is to receive it. And that 'receiving' is done by believe/faith/repent/repentance, and that alone. That is all the same thing, BTW, with repent being the 'flip side', so to speak, of believe. "metanoeO" and "pisteuO" are the two verbs so rendered in this manner.

Again, please think about what you are saying, and think it through, carefully. It helps keep down confusion, and as Scripture says, does not lead to 'the trumpet giving an uncertain call.'

It is getting late, Language Cop has already turned in, and I'm tired, so I might post something I did not really intend to say. But thankfully I did not here. G'nite all.

Ed

In answer to the bolded part......I agree. Nothing is involved for salvation other than to believe. I think you have just misunderstood what I was saying, which I take the blame for. Sometimes I don't make myself clear.

No Lordship salvation.

No works salvation.

Savation is by faith alone, in Christ alone.

Salvation = faith + nothing.

Are we clear? :laugh:

 

[Lacy Evans]

Only if you redefine the word to suit your theology. Nowhere does Strongs refer to eternal as 1000 years.

I didn't write the English or Greek Dictionary. I just quoted the definition right out of both. Just because you refuse to accept that the word's definition varys in degree according to context, doesn't mean that I am "redefining" words.

Do you honestly believe that if the man was not already saved that selling his goods for the poor was the way to salvation? Talk about a works- based salvation.

The kingdom is the context, not absolute-eternity.

I'll tell you what. Usually, when something is true it just makes everything else start to fit into place. So I challenge you, as you study your Bible, just watch for references to the "Kingdom," and see how consistently faith-plus-works is associated with entrance or rank therin.

Then watch for the born-again experience, or becoming a Christian. Watch how consistently faith-without-works is associated with receiving it as a free gift.

 

[Lacy Evans]

No where in scripture is "eternal" limited to 1000 yrs.

You could alsp pop off and say unequivocally that "no where in scripture is 'for ever' limited to one man's lifetime."

But you would be wrong.

Exodus 21:6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

 

[2 Timothy2:1-4]

I didn't write the English or Greek Dictionary. I just quoted the definition right out of both. Just because you refuse to accept that the word's definition varys in degree according to context, doesn't mean that I am "redefining" words.

Do you honestly believe that if the man was not already saved that selling his goods for the poor was the way to salvation? Talk about a works- based salvation.

The kingdom is the context, not absolute-eternity.

I'll tell you what. Usually, when something is true it just makes everything else start to fit into place. So I challenge you, as you study your Bible, just watch for references to the "Kingdom," and see how consistently faith-plus-works is associated with entrance or rank therin.

Then watch for the born-again experience, or becoming a Christian. Watch how consistently faith-without-works is associated with receiving it as a free gift.

What you didnt do is use the greek word in the passsage. If you will do that then your theology will have to change.

 

[Amy.G]

I didn't write the English or Greek Dictionary. I just quoted the definition right out of both. Just because you refuse to accept that the word's definition varys in degree according to context, doesn't mean that I am "redefining" words.

Do you honestly believe that if the man was not already saved that selling his goods for the poor was the way to salvation? Talk about a works- based salvation.

This has already been discussed. If that's all you get out of this passage, you have missed the point.

The kingdom is the context, not absolute-eternity.

The greek word for eternal in this context means forever. You can say it means 1000 years 'til the cows come home, but it still means forever.

 

[2 Timothy2:1-4]

Guess I did say something I did not really intend. I should have said "necessary" instead of "require". I'm gonna' edit the last post to correct that. Thanks!

Ed

What is the difference?

 

[Lacy Evans]

What you didnt do is use the greek word in the passsage. If you will do that then your theology will have to change.

The doggone Greek word means "Age-lasting" too! That's why the translators decided to use an English word that meant "age-lasting" to translate it into English. (Pretty smart huh?)


SS Craig explains better than either Chitwood or I do.

http://www.schoettlepublishing.com/booksonline/craig/eternallife.htm

 

[Lacy Evans]

duplicate post

 

[2 Timothy2:1-4]

The doggone Greek word means "Age-lasting" too! That's why the translators decided to use an English word that meant "age-lasting" to translate it into English. (Pretty smart huh?)

SS Craig explains better than either Chitwood or I do.

http://www.schoettlepublishing.com/booksonline/craig/eternallife.htm

The problem you are having is that you are using the wrong greek word. Aion is not the greek word in the passage we are speaking of. The correct greek word is "aionios". While Aion is the root of the word the meaning and context is changed when ios is added. I know what gymanstics chitwood and craig use to manipilate scrripture. the ignoring of the "ios" is just one example.

 

[Lacy Evans]

The greek word for eternal in this context means forever. You can say it means 1000 years 'til the cows come home, but it still means forever.

Yes It means "Forever."

Just like "forever" means "forever" in Exodus 21:6.

You cannot squeeze more than 1000 years out of an Kingdom age that lasts 1000 years. Because after the 1000 years are finished, the "Cows will come home," and a new age/world/eon/aion will begin, and with it a new context for the word "eternal life".

But this is not the age in question. The context dictated that the age in question is the kingdom age, which is limited to 1000 years.

 

[Amy.G]

The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number: 166
Original Word Word Origin
aionioß from (165)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Aionios 1:208,31
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
ahee-o'-nee-os Adjective

Definition
without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
without beginning
without end, never to cease, everlasting

Lacy, where are you getting the phrase "age lasting"?

Again, the word "eternal" as used in Luke 18:18
A ruler questioned Him, saying, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"

This word has a Strongs reference #166 as I posted above, which you cannot deny meaning forever, without end. It's right there in black and white. It does NOT mean 1000 years or any other specified number of years.

 

[Lacy Evans]

The problem you are having is that you are using the wrong greek word. Aion is not the greek word in the passage we are speaking of. The correct greek word is "aionios". While Aion is the root of the word the meaning and context is changed when ios is added. I know what gymanstics chitwood and craig use to manipilate scrripture. the ignoring of the "ios" is just one example.

Grrrrrrr!!!!!

Aion means "an age," a limited period, whether long or short, though often of indefinite length!!!!!!


Aionios means "age-lasting", "of the age," "age-long,"


Gymnastics? Look, it's the same in English or Greek. Rummaging back and forth from one language to the other neither changes that fact nor makes us appear any smarter.

Lacy

 

[2 Timothy2:1-4]

The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number: 166
Original Word Word Origin
aionioß from (165)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Aionios 1:208,31
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
ahee-o'-nee-os Adjective

Definition
without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
without beginning
without end, never to cease, everlasting

Lacy, where are you getting the phrase "age lasting"?

Again, the word "eternal" as used in Luke 18:18
A ruler questioned Him, saying, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"

This word has a Strongs reference #166 as I posted above, which you cannot deny meaning forever, without end. It's right there in black and white. It does NOT mean 1000 years or any other specified number of years.

She begins with using the greek word aion which is # 165 in the strongs. and it is not the greek word used in the passage. Then she uses human reason to say that the translators used the english dictionary to translate with so it leaves her (or rather craig) the option of looking to a dictionary that phrases the word (that is incorrect to begin with)that fits the presupposition. Pure eisegesis

 

[2 Timothy2:1-4]

Grrrrrrr!!!!!

Aion means "an age," a limited period, whether long or short, though often of indefinite length!!!!!!


Aionios means "age-lasting", "of the age," "age-long,"


Gymnastics? Look, it's the same in English or Greek. Rummaging back and forth from one language to the other neither changes that fact nor makes us appear any smarter.

Lacy

No mam. neither the word age nor lasting are involved in the definition of aionios.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Just some casual cutting and pasting to challenge your nigh-
infallible "Strongs Concordance".

1 -- How, if it mean an endless period, can aion have a plural?

2 -- How came such phrases to be used as those repeatedly occurring in Scripture, where aion is added to aion, if aion is of itself infinite?

3 -- How come such phrases as for the "aion" or aions and BEYOND? -- ton aiona kai ep aiona kai eti: eis tous aionas kai eti. -- See (Sept.) Ex. 15:18; Dan. 12:3; Micah 4:5.

4 -- How is it that we repeatedly read of the end of the aion? -- Matt. 13:39,40,49; 24:3; 28:20; I Cor. 10:11; Heb. 9:26.

5 -- Finally, if aion be infinite, why is it applied over and over to what is strictly finite? e.g., Mark 4:19; Acts 3:21; Rom. 12:2; I Cor. 1:20, 2:20, 2:6, 3:18, 10:11, etc. But if an aion be not definite, what right have we to render the adjective aionios (which depends for its meaning on aion) by the terms "eternal" (when used as the equivalent of "endless") and "everlasting?"

In Ex. 15:18, where the KJV says: "The Lord shall reign forever and ever," the Septuagint shows, kurios basileuon ton aiona kai ap aiona kai eti, "The Lord is reigning the eon, and upon eon, and longer," and the Latin Vulgate, in aeternum et ultra, "into eternity and beyond." The Hebrew says, "Jehovah shall reign to the eon and beyond." Our conception of the English "forever and ever" allows for no time to be "beyond."

Josephus shows that aionios did not mean endlessness, for he uses it of the period between the giving of the law to Moses and that of his own writing; to the period of the imprisonment of the tyrant John by the Romans; and to the period during which Herod's temple stood. The temple had already been destroyed by the time Josephus was writing.

St. Gregory of Nyssa speaks of aionios diastêma, "an eonian interval." It would be absurd to call an interval "endless."

St. Chrysostum, in his homily on Eph. 2:1-3, says that "Satan's kingdom is æonian; that is, it will cease with the present world."

St. Justin Martyr repeatedly used the word aionios as in the Apol. (p. 57), aionion kolasin ...all ouchi chiliontaetê periodon, "eonian chastening ...but a period, not a thousand years." Or, as some translate the last clause: "but a period of a thousand years only." He limits the eonian chastening to a period of a thousand years, rather than to endlessness.

In 1 Enoch 10:10 there is an interesting statement using the Greek words: zoên aionion, "life eonian," or, as in the KJV, "everlasting life" (at John 3:16 and elswhere). The whole sentence in Enoch is, hoti elpizousi zêsai zoên aionion, kai hoti zêsetai hekastos auton etê pentakosia, "For they hope to live an eonian life, and that each one of them will live five hundred years." Here, eonian life is limited to five hundred years! In the N.T. eonian life is limited to life during the eons, after which death will be destroyed by making ALL alive IN CHRIST, incorruptible and immortal.