Lordship Salvation?

[J. Jump]

Because the literal expression is endless ages.

Thank you. Once again you have proven my point.

Our Bibles are totally screwed up.

Just to show you that actually they are messed up in at least several other places . . . in Matthew the phrase is translated kingdom of heaven, but in the Greek it is "actually" the kingdom of the heavens. Heavens is always plural and it is always articular. Wonder why none of the translators would translate that phrase correctly?

And then at least once maybe more in Paul's writings he uses heavens in the plural and yet it is translated into the singular.

So yes most of the "accepted" translations have mistakes in them. Do you need more evidence or is two enough to bust your bubble?

 

[Amy.G]

Thank you. Once again you have proven my point.


Just to show you that actually they are messed up in at least several other places . . . in Matthew the phrase is translated kingdom of heaven, but in the Greek it is "actually" the kingdom of the heavens. Heavens is always plural and it is always articular. Wonder why none of the translators would translate that phrase correctly?

And then at least once maybe more in Paul's writings he uses heavens in the plural and yet it is translated into the singular.

So yes most of the "accepted" translations have mistakes in them. Do you need more evidence or is two enough to bust your bubble?

Thank goodness we have you to interpret our Bibles correctly. We might fall prey to all kinds of false doctrines otherwise.

 

[J. Jump]

Thank goodness we have you to interpret our Bibles correctly.

Maybe instead of sarcasm you'll want to take a crack at why something that is articular and plural would be translated as singular. Or maybe why heaven is the word in the translations instead of heavens in the actual Greek.

Got an answer for that? Or just more sarcasm.

 

[npetreley]

I find it almost funny that you quote 1 Peter 5:11, which does use something besides "aionios", which is what I pointed out that does mean "forever".

It [FONT=&quot]is [/FONT][FONT=&quot]εις τοὺς αιωνας των αιώνων or literally “from the ages unto the ages”. It's used in 16 places in the NT.[/FONT]

That isn't a literal translation at all, since you've transformed an adjective into a noun. A more literal translation would be "age the ageless", or perhaps "age the perpetual", although those are admittedly more clumsy in the English.

Regardless, you said it was impossible for aionos to mean something other than aion, and then by your own admission it means something other than aion. So did you mean to say it is impossible for aionos to mean something other than aion except in those many cases where it does mean something other than aion? That makes sense.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Well, since no one is brave enough to answer the question, I'll answer it:

What must I do to be saved?

Believe. Aorist. Punctiliar action. An event. Mental assent.

And I will be saved. Indicative. No ifs, ands, or buts. It will happen.

Know what happens when you stop believing? You've still believed in the aorist, and it cannot be undone.

It's like squeezing the trigger on a gun. Once that round has been fired, you can't unsqueeze the trigger and have the round come back.

Now, in John 3:16, "believe" is in the present tense. It's a present, active, participle, to be exact. ("Believe", when used as a present, active, participle, is synonymous with "faith", so this is "one who is being faithful".)

"Should not perish" is subjunctive. It might or might not happen.

So, the one believing might or might not perish.

Only one who has a life to lose can perish.

So, does that mean that the one who is believing, if he stops believing loses his spiritual salvation?

If so, why the contradiction with Acts 16:31?

How many contradictions are you willing to accept in Scriptures?

If you can't lose your spiritual salvation, then what does the one who stops believing lose?

It's also in the middle voice. He causes to happen for himself.

But, "have aionian life" is also subjunctive.

You can be faithful, and you can be having this life. (One Greek teacher that I know says that it describes a quality of life; not the adjective itself, but the concept.) But, it's not assured, because you can stop believing (stop being faithful), and you can perish. You can lose this aionian life, based on your actions.

If this is talking about being saved forever and ever, then it is based on your works, and you cause it to happen for yourself.

Is that what I must do to be saved forever and ever?

 

[Hope of Glory]

Maybe instead of sarcasm you'll want to take a crack at why something that is articular and plural would be translated as singular. Or maybe why heaven is the word in the translations instead of heavens in the actual Greek.

Got an answer for that? Or just more sarcasm.

Here, I'll do it for them.

I don't expect them to do it because it contradicts what they already believe:

βασιλεία τῶν οὐρανῶν

See, a genitive, plural, maculine noun, preceded by a genitive, plural, masculine definite article.

But, to be fair, about half the translations that I own do translate "heavens", but only a few include the definite article.

I wonder why they omitted some words?

 

[npetreley]

Here, I'll do it for them.

I don't expect them to do it because it contradicts what they already believe:

βασιλεία τῶν οὐρανῶν

See, a genitive, plural, maculine noun, preceded by a genitive, plural, masculine definite article.

But, to be fair, about half the translations that I own do translate "heavens", but only a few include the definite article.

I wonder why they omitted some words?

Why is it that some translations do have the definite article and plural, but absolutely no translations say "1,000 years" instead of "eternal"?

 

[Hope of Glory]

That isn't a literal translation at all, since you've transformed an adjective into a noun. A more literal translation would be "age the ageless", or perhaps "age the perpetual", although those are admittedly more clumsy in the English.

In the TR (other manuscripts don't hold the text as genuine), it is two nouns: accusative, plural, and genitive, plural, both with the definite article.

From the ages unto the ages.

Regardless, you said it was impossible for aionos to mean something other than aion, and then by your own admission it means something other than aion.

Well, since this is something of your own making, I admit nothing. I said no such thing.

What I sais was that the semantic domain of the adjective cannot exceed the semantic domain of the noun from which it is formed. Standard rule in most Greek textbooks.

So did you mean to say it is impossible for aionos to mean something other than aion except in those many cases where it does mean something other than aion? That makes sense.

Once again, since you have no valid argument, you have to make up stuff.

What I said was that unless you (not I, nor any Greek lexicon that I've ever seen) think that an age (aion) can mean forever, then aionios cannot be an adjective meaning forever.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Why is it that some translations do have the definite article and plural, but absolutely no translations say "1,000 years" instead of "eternal"?

I can show you a whole list of them that say "age-lasting" or "age-abiding" or "age-during" or simply transliterate the word to avoid this very argument.

An "age" is not defined as 1,000 years in the word itself.

But, the "age to come" is defined as 1,000 years in the Scriptures.

Why do you find it necessary to twist and distort what is said to "win" your argument? If your argument is just, wouldn't truth serve you better?

 

[2 Timothy2:1-4]

Aionois is used 41 times in the NT. Its root is Aion. it means perpetual, eternal, ever lasting, world(began)

Verses this can be found in are:

Matt 19:16 I will make the an "eternal" excellency...
Luke 10:25 What shall I do to inherit "eternal" life...
John 3:15 should not perish but have "everlasting" life
Acts 13:48 many as were ordained to "eternal" life...


Aion is used twice in the NT. Its root is Aei. properly it means "age". by extension "perpetuity (also past) by implication the world.

Verses can be found in:

Eph 3:11 according to the eternal purposes
1 Tim 1:17 that they may lay hold on eternal life

Aidios is also translated eternal. Its root is also Aei.It means everduring, eternal, everlasting. It is used twice.

It can be found in:

Romans 1:20 even His eternal power
Romans 2:7 and honour and immortality, eternal life

 

[Lacy Evans]

Wow, you missed the point by about a gazillion light years. The word in TODAY'S TRANSLATIONS is "eternal". Look up eternal in TODAY'S DICTIONARY.

Main Entry: 1eter·nal
Pronunciation: i-'t&r-n&l
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Late Latin aeternalis, from Latin aeternus eternal, from aevum age, eternity -- more at AYE
1 a : having infinite duration :

2 Continuing without interruption; perpetual.
3 Forever true or changeless: eternal truths.
4 Seemingly endless; interminable. See Synonyms at ageless, continual.

I really have to work with my Middle School students when they use a dictionary. Thing is, all 4(or 5) definitions are "good definitions". The word can mean any of those. You can't define a multiple meaning word (or in this case a word with different shades of meaning) by completely ignoring the context and automatically always choosing definition #1!

English dictionaries were written after the language had been in use for centuries. Good dictionaries (like the Oxford English Dictionary) look to the historical use of the word to help determine the definition.

You have missed it in Greek and in English.

If the meaning has changed and it SHOULD mean something else (like 1,000 years) then the English translators made a mistake by using the word "eternal".

It hasn't changed in either language. It has multiple meanings. It always has meant age lasting and if the aion/eon in question was the final age of absolute eternity then that's the age that it lasted the entirety of.

It is MORE than reasonable to assume the translators knew what they were doing when they translated it as "eternal" in order to convey the MEANING OF THE WORD WHEN IT WAS USED IN NT TIMES.

I documented it's use in NT times, from the Greek OT, writings of Greek speaking church fathers and classical Greek literature. So this statement is pure rhetoric.

"Eternal" never meant 1,000 years. Never. Ever. The etymology shows it could, at one time, mean an "age", but never did it ever mean 1,000 years. Never. Did you get that yet? Never.

Not one person on this thread has ever said that "eternal" means "1000 years." Again with the rhetoric.

We have said it means EITHER "forever without end or beginning", "uninterrupted", "a really long time", "seemingly endless", etc. You can't argue whether the word means one of those and not the other unless you take into consideration the CONTEXT. (Which is the "eternal, uninterrupted, 1000 year long" Kingdom)


If the age lasts 10 minutes, then the red light would take an eternity! Absolute proper use of the word according to definition #4 above.

So you have to break the word twisting it to mean what you want it to mean. You have to bypass the obvious translation as "eternal", go to the etymology, and then add a liberal dose of speculation, after which you manage to mangle the word into meaning 1,000 years. Remember what I said about self-deception? Bingo.

I don't bypass the translation "eternal". I just happen to know what "eternal" means in English. The Holy Spirit got it right.

 

[npetreley]

If the age lasts 10 minutes, then the red light would take an eternity! Absolute proper use of the word according to definition #4 above.

Definition #4 is hyperbole. The context of "eternal" in the Bible is not hyperbole.

 

[Lacy Evans]

I could cite at least a dozen verses. Are you saying that all the translators for all times were wrong? They should have been saying "for an age" instead of "eternal" or "everlasting" in all these places? Our Bibles are totally screwed up. Can you create a translation for us that fixes all these errors?

You know something funny. I am probably the most adamant KJVO-God-rewrote-it-in English) guy on this board. I don't use a strongs. I never check "the Greek." I study it out in English and put my absolute faith in that one English book. So there are different perspectives represented here on ME. (Faust, James Newman, AV1611 Jim, etc are all KJVO) HoG, Jjump, obviously not.

To say "our Bibles are totally screwed up" is quite offensive to me. I think Eternal is the perfect English word.

Lacy

 

[Lacy Evans]

Definition #4 is hyperbole. The context of "eternal" in the Bible is not hyperbole.

hyperbole, schmyperbole.

It's one definition of the word. But if you don't like it see if Def #2 fits with the Kingdom context.

Lacy

 

[npetreley]

You know something funny. I am probably the most adamant KJVO-God-rewrote-it-in English) guy on this board. I don't use a strongs. I never check "the Greek." I study it out in English and put my absolute faith in that one English book. So there are different perspectives represented here on ME. (Faust, James Newman, AV1611 Jim, etc are all KJVO) HoG, Jjump, obviously not.

To say "our Bibles are totally screwed up" is quite offensive to me. I think Eternal is the perfect English word.

Lacy

Well, we're even (at the least), I guess. I find both KJVO and kingdom salvation offensive. I consider the former ignorance, and the latter heresy. But my comment was that, according to the kingdom salvation folks, the Bible is totally screwed up. I think the Bible is fine.

 

[npetreley]

hyperbole, schmyperbole.

It's one definition of the word. But if you don't like it see if Def #2 fits with the Kingdom context.

Lacy

Perpetual means perpetual. A 1,000 year age ends after 1,000 years. It is not perpetual.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Well, we're even (at the least), I guess. I find both KJVO and kingdom salvation offensive. I consider the former ignorance, and the latter heresy. But my comment was that, according to the kingdom salvation folks, the Bible is totally screwed up. I think the Bible is fine.

I love you as a brother in Christ, but I really won't lose much sleep over what you "consider".

 

[npetreley]

I love you as a brother in Christ, but I really won't lose much sleep over what you "consider".

Ditto.

.............

 

[James_Newman]

Perpetual means perpetual. A 1,000 year age ends after 1,000 years. It is not perpetual.

You guys could play dueling dictionary all day long.

per·pet·u·al /pərˈpɛtʃ

u

əl/
http://www.baptistboard.com/ 1.continuing or enduring forever; everlasting.
2.lasting an indefinitely long time: perpetual snow.

Context is the only way to know what these words mean.

 

[npetreley]

You guys could play dueling dictionary all day long.

Or for an eternity.