Losing Salvation?

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I'm looking forward to reading the responses on this thread.
A loved one and I recently had a discussion involving salvation. And to be honest with you, I got a little frustrated at his skepticism, but then again. A point that I never really thought about came up and I did not know how to respond to such because I could not see how something could be possible, even though I'm sure it is...Ive just never encountered it, or experienced it the way he tried to illustrate.

So he doesnt believe in onced saved always saved. (i'm going to make this long story short with just key points)..He doesn't see how "God can force someone to stay saved if that person no longer wants to". The example given was someone who is saved...sincerely asking Jesus into his heart... and then later on down the line, turns his back on Jesus and becomes atheist...He believes a person can lose their salvation

I personally do not see how someone can truly believe..and then suddenly not believe..although I'm sure somehow outside of my realm of understanding, it is possible.

My explanations included,
if salvation was able to be lost then Jesus died in vain,
Even when you stray or turn away, the Lord will not give up on your and will bring you back him (in which his response is..what if you die before He brings you back to him)..
Romans 8:38 states that nothing can take the love of God away from you
I used the example of Peter, how he went from loving the Lord, to rejecting that he knew him 3 times

But anyway, how would you respond to someone who says that? I've never thought about someone becoming atheists after salvation (i've always seen situations where its the other way around)..

If you have biblical support, for either stand, I'd love to read it

Id tell him to go join the Salvation Army....cause thats how they think...lol. Actually its a fundamental denial of the Doctrine of Regeneration. Youd have to work from that pretext & teach him the whole Doctrines of Grace. That takes time, commitment & the HS which he probably doesn't have.

 

[Tom Butler]

There are many scripture passages dealing with the OP question.

Here are the two which drive my view:

John 10:27-28 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. And I give to them eternal life and they shall NEVER perish; neither shall any one pluck them out of my hand.

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

When Jesus says NEVER perish, he leaves no room for any other view.

When Paul says the gifts and calling of God are not repented of by God, I see no room for any other interpretation.

Eternal security is not up to us. It is God who holds us in his hand.

Now, believers may sin, but if they keep on, God will certainly punish them.

He might even kill them.

 

[Zenas]

Same as the devils.

You can believe; you can do good works; but have you believed to the saving of your soul?

How can you become unfruitful? Doesn't scripture tell us that there will be those who do many miracles, and lead people to believe that they are of God, only to find out they are wolves in sheep's clothing?

Scripture seems very clear to me: Just as the devils believe and tremble, there are those that believe and tremble. This doesn't mean they're saved, only that they have made a profession of some sort. In the end, how do we tell? By the fruit they bear (the seed that produced a hundredfold).

Don, I think you are reading things into this parable that just aren't there. You appear to be saying the seed that fell on stony ground and among thorns represent fundamentally reprobate people. That is not what our Lord said. He made it perfectly clear that these were well intended people but for various reasons they just didn't persevere.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I guess that my question to you prior to addressing it with anyone else is do you understand the Doctrines of Grace. That understanding will enable you to address those other questions

 

[HAMel]

Eternal security is not up to us. It is God who holds us in his hand.

Now, believers may sin, but if they keep on, God will certainly punish them.

He might even kill them.

I agree. Just as a parent punishes a child for wrong doing and, no matter what that child does he/she will always be "your child". If you can't deny your child as yours, why would the Lord deny his child?

 

[Zenas]

There are many scripture passages dealing with the OP question.

Here are the two which drive my view:

John 10:27-28 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. And I give to them eternal life and they shall NEVER perish; neither shall any one pluck them out of my hand.

That is a great passage and it gives me a lot of comfort every time I read it. However, we must choose to join the fold and we are always free to leave the fold. Scripture does not say we are locked in, only that intruders are locked out.

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

When Jesus says NEVER perish, he leaves no room for any other view.

When Paul says the gifts and calling of God are not repented of by God, I see no room for any other interpretation.

Eternal security is not up to us. It is God who holds us in his hand.

Now, believers may sin, but if they keep on, God will certainly punish them.

He might even kill them.

As I read this verse, it appears Paul is comparing the blindness of the Jews with the faith of the Gentiles. "The gifts and calliing of God" are a promise to the Gentile people, not a personal promise of individual salvation.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

That is a great passage and it gives me a lot of comfort every time I read it. However, we must choose to join the fold and we are always free to leave the fold. Scripture does not say we are locked in, only that intruders are locked out. As I read this verse, it appears Paul is comparing the blindness of the Jews with the faith of the Gentiles. "The gifts and calliing of God" are a promise to the Gentile people, not a personal promise of individual salvation.

so your saying that we are free to flip flop, regenerate today & unregenerate tomorrow & regenerate again & back & forth....IE you believe in the notion of Falling from Grace & coming in & out of salvation?

 

[Zenas]

Eternal security is not up to us. It is God who holds us in his hand.

Now, believers may sin, but if they keep on, God will certainly punish them.

He might even kill them.

I agree. Just as a parent punishes a child for wrong doing and, no matter what that child does he/she will always be "your child". If you can't deny your child as yours, why would the Lord deny his child?

You can't change the fact that your child is your child but you can deny that child his inheritance. It happens all the time. A child is ungrateful, distant, quarrelsome, etc., and the parent writes him right out of his will. It's the same principle as falling from grace on a human level.

 

[Zenas]

so your saying that we are free to flip flop, regenerate today & unregenerate tomorrow & regenerate again & back & forth....IE you believe in the notion of Falling from Grace & coming in & out of salvation?

Yes, I do believe that. It's not something that happens as casually as you describe but it can and does happen.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Yes, I do believe that.

Then the same thing must apply to your understanding concerning assurance. What is the value of an assurance that you can lose? I mean by that, what is the value of an assurance of salvation if you can loose your salvation? If your persistence in grace & in salvation is dependent upon you, where is your assurance? Can you rely on yourself? Would any man be eventually saved if it were left to us to persevere in grace?

 

[HAMel]

You can't change the fact that your child is your child but you can deny that child his inheritance.

From an earthly stand point, yes..., but God's love is above understanding.

 

[Zenas]

Then the same thing must apply to your understanding concerning assurance.

Not necessarily.

What is the value of an assurance that you can lose? I mean by that, what is the value of an assurance of salvation if you can loose your salvation? If your persistence in grace & in salvation is dependent upon you, where is your assurance?

It’s like life insurance. The company provides assurance that when you die they will pay the death benefit to your beneficiary. But this assurance is conditional upon your paying the annual premium, i.e., it requires your cooperation. Similarly, staying saved requires your cooperation. “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” Philippians 2:12.

Can you rely on yourself?

No, but you can rely on God, whose help is available for the asking.

Would any man be eventually saved if it were left to us to persevere in grace?

Scripture instructs us to do just that—persevere.

 

[Zenas]

You can't change the fact that your child is your child but you can deny that child his inheritance.

From an earthly stand point, yes..., but God's love is above understanding.

Then we shouldn't use the analogy you posited in Post #25, should we?

 

[Don]

Don, I think you are reading things into this parable that just aren't there. You appear to be saying the seed that fell on stony ground and among thorns represent fundamentally reprobate people. That is not what our Lord said. He made it perfectly clear that these were well intended people but for various reasons they just didn't persevere.

And I think you're missing the obvious. A seed that has no root doesn't persevere because it has no anchor. It didn't lose its root; it didn't have one to begin with.

 

[Zenas]

And I think you're missing the obvious. A seed that has no root doesn't persevere because it has no anchor. It didn't lose its root; it didn't have one to begin with.

So, must we take root to be "really" saved? How long does that take? 1 day? 1 week? several years? I don't mean to be facetious here but we all know a person goes from being unsaved to being saved in an instant. It doesn't take a lot of time. Christian maturity is a different matter but that isn't what we're talking about here. The people in this parable were saved just as surely as the seeds that fell to the ground germinated. Then, for various reasons, they withered away.

 

[Don]

So, must we take root to be "really" saved? How long does that take? 1 day? 1 week? several years? I don't mean to be facetious here but we all know a person goes from being unsaved to being saved in an instant. It doesn't take a lot of time. Christian maturity is a different matter but that isn't what we're talking about here. The people in this parable were saved just as surely as the seeds that fell to the ground germinated. Then, for various reasons, they withered away.

We're not talking about a matter of time; we're talking about a matter of believing versus saving faith. And thus, why I pointed out the difference between believing, and believing to the saving of the soul.

 

[righteousdude2]

Salvation, for Me, is a Done Deal . . .

. . . When I was born again, I had no doubts that I was His forever. And I base that on the Revelations 13:8 and 21:27. I know that my confession of faith resulted in my name being written in the Lamb's Book, and I have complete confidence that God does not have a bottle of "White Out" or an eraser.

Secondly, Paul tells us in Galatians 4:5, and Ephesians 1:5 "For He foreordained us (destined us, planned in love for us) to be adopted (revealed) as His own children through Jesus Christ, in accordance with the purpose of His will [ because it pleased Him and was His kind intent]-- " Amplified Bible

The legal act of an adoption is something that can't be undone. I believe that I cannot be un-adopted.

These verses, plus the many other excellent verses and explanations given thus far, is the thing upon which I base my salvation being irrevocable!

As for those who go "Prodigal" the story of the prodigal son is one more Word from the Lord to show that even those who have walked away will return and be eligible for their inheritance. One of my favorite verses on the plan for those who have "fallen away (gone prodigal) is in Daniel 11:35 "And some of those who is wise, prudent, and understanding shall be weakened and fall, [thus, then. The insincere among the people will lose courage and become deserters. It will be a test] to refine, to purify, and to make those among [God's people] white, even to the time of the end, because it is yet for the time [God] appointed." Amplified Bible

On a personal note, I can tell you that even though I tried to walk away from God (following my divorce and the loss of the ministry), He never quit on me. I spent approximately 15 years trying to run away from Him, hiding myself in world porn and illicit s@xual relationships, but, there came that "pig trough" moment for me, and I found myself back in church, broken spiritually, emotionally, mentally, physically, and financially. After a failed attempt at blowing my brains out on a Friday night, that Sunday night service saw me come full circle, and like the father welcoming his prodigal son back with open arms, my Father was at that service and welcomed me back in the fullness of His love. I don't understand it, but, I know He never quit on me, and He has restored ministry, and I'm ttwo months shy of celebrating 32 years of marriage to my wife, who came to Jesus, after we marriedn in 1980.

My complete story is in my book, Prodigal Daze (ISBN 978-1-4141-0272-6), and for anyone who thinks that God does not come after His lost and wayward children, you need to read my testimony.

I have no doubt that His love never changed, after all, that is why He sent His Son to die. My name was never removed from the Lamb's Book, and I never once received legal papers (spiritually speaking) of God revoking my adoption into His family!

I give God the praise for this wild ride through life, and I know He had a purpose, because my testimony has delivered thousands of prodigal children from their walk in darkness.

I hope something I shared can help you with your answer to your friend.

Shalom,

Pastor Paul :type:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Not necessarily.
It’s like life insurance. The company provides assurance that when you die they will pay the death benefit to your beneficiary. But this assurance is conditional upon your paying the annual premium, i.e., it requires your cooperation. Similarly, staying saved requires your cooperation. “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” Philippians 2:12. No, but you can rely on God, whose help is available for the asking. Scripture instructs us to do just that—persevere.

you liken Doctrine of Assurance & Regeneration to an of this world Insurance Policy?!? Again back to my original question....What is it's true value if you can loose your salvation? your answer is "It's all about me, dependent on me.....then that means that if its all dependent on ME then I am in all the uncertainty that I was before.

Of course that is why so many turn to the RC's....where you hand it over and the Church looks after it for you. It is because you cannot possibly do it for yourself. Now the Roman Catholic Church does not offer you assurance of salvation but what she does is say you cannot get it but leave it to us & we take care of it for you. And of course you get the bonus of all that characterizes that church. It is interesting Z that you.....well now, I will stop my train of thought here ....but think about it for a bit. In closing I ask you to consider this, Are saved people & Christians, as we all are, because it is "all of the Grace of God" and in spite of us? Something to ponder my brother.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

I am sure there has been a lot of good replies. I will share what I said to a young lady years ago, after I was first born of God, who asked me if I thought I could lose my salvation.

"I didn't do anything to get into this, what makes you think I can do anything to get out of it?"

My answer still stands.

 

[Arbo]

Righteousdude2-Thanks for that. You are an encouragement.