Losing Salvation?

[Bobby Hamilton]

Zenas YOU are a works Salvationist. No matter how you cut it, by your standards the person cannot get to heaven unless they achieve. You may reject scripture for your desire of works, but be careful as God rejects works salvationists.This is what is true, not your teachings;

1John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

If they leave they were never saved.

1John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (practice) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot (practice) sin, because he is born of God.

Believers do not practice sin so you have a false gospel and fall under the curse in Gal. Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Gal. 1:8-9 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

If a believe has a sin that they can't concor, are the not a believer?

 

[Bobby Hamilton]

Because life has no purpose if we have no control over our eternal destiny. We are just parts of a finely tuned machine. That is not God's way. He wants us to come to Him and to know Him--all of us. And he gave us the power of reason and the gift of discernment to help us along the way. "Whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

I would ask this: God has described to us the one thing we have to do to aquire salvation.

But what is that one thing we have to do to lose it?

Is it repeat sin? One sin? Where is that line? How many times do we have to sin before we lose our salvation?

It troubles me that the scriptures are so clear on what we need to do to obtain salvation, but not so clear on what we have to do to lose salvation.

If I'm a firm believer, I read the Bible, witness to others...live that life by the works (that you described earlier)...and one day I'm working out in my barn, hit my thumb and get angry and swear...then drop dead of a heart attack...am I spending eternity in hell?

Or If I'm doing what the Bible instructs me to do but struggling with a sin, concur it and fall back into it one time...then die of a heart attack, am I spending eternity in hell?

 

[freeatlast]

If a believe has a sin that they can't concor, are the not a believer?

Hello Bobby nice to meet you. I am going to assume you are asking me this, but if not please correct it and I will try and answer the correction.

[SIZE=+0]If a believer has a sin that they cannot conquer are they not a believer?[/SIZE]

That is sort of like asking can God create a rock so big that He cannot move it? None the less let me try and answer your question. The answer is that there is no such thing as a temptation or sin that a true believer cannot overcome according to the bible.
1Cor 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].


Good question, thank you for asking.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Hello Bobby nice to meet you. I am going to assume you are asking me this, but if not please correct it and I will try and answer the correction.

[SIZE=+0]If a believer has a sin that they cannot conquer are they not a believer?[/SIZE]

That is sort of like asking can God create a rock so big that He cannot move it? None the less let me try and answer your question. The answer is that there is no such thing as a temptation or sin that a true believer cannot overcome according to the bible.
1Cor 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].


Good question, thank you for asking.

I don't think it really answers his question. Which one of us has not a besetting sin which so easily ensnares us? So the question is, if I am presenting struggling against a sin, for months or even years, does it mean that I am not saved?

 

[Bobby Hamilton]

Hello Bobby nice to meet you. I am going to assume you are asking me this, but if not please correct it and I will try and answer the correction.

[SIZE=+0]If a believer has a sin that they cannot conquer are they not a believer?[/SIZE]

That is sort of like asking can God create a rock so big that He cannot move it? None the less let me try and answer your question. The answer is that there is no such thing as a temptation or sin that a true believer cannot overcome according to the bible.
1Cor 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].


Good question, thank you for asking.

I may have quoted you but was asking in general. And my apologies for all the words I spelled incorrectly in that statement. Man was that bad.

I guess let's look at it this way: Through God we should be able to accomplish anything. But we are born into a sinful world and through God's grace we have the ability to obtain everlasting life. My interpretation is that even after Salvation, we still live in a sinful world and will sin. There is no way around it. But at that point we are convicted and seek to right those wrongs and ask forgiveness. My question implies if we have an area that we struggle with and have not been able to conquer...if we suddenly drop dead while not yet conquering that particular sin, are we bound for hell? Were we never saved? Is any one sin enough to doom us to hell after we are saved?

That's what I don't see the Bible being clear on. We know what to do to be saved. But what "one thing" can unsave us? (I guess this would be more pointed at the person who was saying we can lose our salvation).

 

[Bobby Hamilton]

I don't think it really answers his question. Which one of us has not a besetting sin which so easily ensnares us? So the question is, if I am presenting struggling against a sin, for months or even years, does it mean that I am not saved?

That's a good way to interpret my question, yes.

Then on top of that: If I do conquer that sin...but years later fall back into it (even if just briefly)...and then keel over...am I now unsaved?

What is that line?

 

[freeatlast]

I don't think it really answers his question. Which one of us has not a besetting sin which so easily ensnares us? So the question is, if I am presenting struggling against a sin, for months or even years, does it mean that I am not saved?

First I am assuming that you are referring to Hebrews 12:1
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset [us], and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

However in light of your question you are taking the passage out of context. First off the passage it is not about "Which one of us has not a besetting sin" In other words it is not about personal sins we might have. The passage is about one kind of sin that was and does comprise every unbelievers heart and that is unbelief. Notice the passage says this;
let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset [us],

It is the same sin in every person and it is of such a nature that it can be laid aside if we will it so. It is all about choice.
So no believer has any sin to besetting that they cannot just stop. Many times we are like the monkey who put his hand in the jar to retrieve a tasty fruit, but finds that he cannot have the fruit and be able to remove his hand to eat it at the same time because his closed fist around the fruit will not exit the small opening of the jar so the monkey loses his life because he will not let go of the fruit but neither can he escape the jar which will not move.
Until we value our walk with Christ more then the pleasure of sin we remain trapped while the whole time we cry out to God for forgiveness and help to get free all we have to do is let go of the fruit (sin).

This is why scripture says;
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].

So the answer is it could mean we are lost, but not not necessarily. It depends on if we are asking forgiveness and seeking freedom from the sin, but just have not figured out how to get free from it. By the way the answer is get rid of, stay away from or do what ever it takes to get out from under the sin. Jesus said it this way;
And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast [it] from thee: So examine what it is that brings on the temptation and then sin and do radical surgery if necessary.

I have an example of this. This is a true story. At one place where I worked a young man came up to me and said this. "I have a question, but I don't want you to preach to me, just answer my question" Now I am not sure why he thought I would preach to him since I had never even spoken to him about the Lord.
Then he said this and asked me a question. "
I am having trouble with lust how can I get over this?" Now I knew where his work station was and I knew he had a girly calendar hanging by his station. Not nude, but swim suit type. So I told him to go over to his work station and take down the calendar and stop watching those things on TV that causes him to lust. He just dropped his head and walked away. He never took down the calendar so I figured he never got over his lust.
The same with any sin. We have to do what it takes to stop the temptations.

 

[Bobby Hamilton]

First I am assuming that you are referring to Hebrews 12:1
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset [us], and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

However in light of your question you are taking the passage out of context. First off the passage it is not about "Which one of us has not a besetting sin" In other words it is not about personal sins we might have. The passage is about one kind of sin that was and does comprise every unbelievers heart and that is unbelief. Notice the passage says this;
let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset [us],

It is the same sin in every person and it is of such a nature that it can be laid aside if we will it so. It is all about choice.
So no believer has any sin to besetting that they cannot just stop. Many times we are like the monkey who put his hand in the jar to retrieve a tasty fruit, but finds that he cannot have the fruit and be able to remove his hand to eat it at the same time because his closed fist around the fruit will not exit the small opening of the jar so the monkey loses his life because he will not let go of the fruit but neither can he escape the jar which will not move.
Until we value our walk with Christ more then the pleasure of sin we remain trapped while the whole time we cry out to God for forgiveness and help to get free all we have to do is let go of the fruit (sin).

This is why scripture says;
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].

So the answer is it could mean we are lost, but not not necessarily. It depends on if we are asking forgiveness and seeking freedom from the sin, but just have not figured out how to get free from it. By the way the answer is get rid of, stay away from or do what ever it takes to get out from under the sin. Jesus said it this way;
And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast [it] from thee: So examine what it is that brings on the temptation and then sin and do radical surgery if necessary.

I have an example of this. This is a true story. At one place where I worked a young man came up to me and said this. "I have a question, but I don't want you to preach to me, just answer my question" Now I am not sure why he thought I would preach to him since I had never even spoken to him about the Lord.
Then he said this and asked me a question. "
I am having trouble with lust how can i get over this?" Now I knew where his work station was and i knew he had a girly calendar hanging by his station. Not nude, but swim suit type. So I told him to go over to his work station and take down the calendar and stop watching those things on TV that causes him to lust. He just dropped his head and walked away. He never took down the calendar so I figured he never got over his lust.
The same with any sin. We have to do what it takes to stop the temptations.

So the one sin that could cause one to lose salvation (if you believe that) is not really believing?

 

[Don]

I have an example of this. This is a true story. At one place where I worked a young man came up to me and said this. "I have a question, but I don't want you to preach to me, just answer my question" Now I am not sure why he thought I would preach to him since I had never even spoken to him about the Lord.
Then he said this and asked me a question. "
I am having trouble with lust how can I get over this?" Now I knew where his work station was and I knew he had a girly calendar hanging by his station. Not nude, but swim suit type. So I told him to go over to his work station and take down the calendar and stop watching those things on TV that causes him to lust. He just dropped his head and walked away. He never took down the calendar so I figured he never got over his lust.
The same with any sin. We have to do what it takes to stop the temptations.

For some reason, I'm reminded of the rich young ruler, who when told to give away all his riches and follow Jesus, went away instead....

Seems to me the question can be answered by that parable: Was this young ruler saved, or did he prefer the things of the world and forsake Jesus?

In other words, if you'd rather continue in the sin than do something as simple as taking down a calendar to help control/remove the temptation, well....

 

[Don]

So the one sin that could cause one to lose salvation (if you believe that) is not really believing?

I personally would qualify it as, if you're not really believing, then you can't lose what you didn't really have.

 

[Bobby Hamilton]

I personally would qualify it as, if you're not really believing, then you can't lose what you didn't really have.

That's sort of my thought.

I'm just struggling with the person who mentioned earlier that after you are saved it's your works that keep you saved.

So if your works aren't there...then what? You are unsaved? Or is sinning another way to lose those works, and then lose your salvation. And if so, how much of that has to occur for you to lose your salvation?

Seems to me that if God is as clear as he is on what a person needs to do to be saved, he'd be equally as clear on what to do to lose your salvation.

 

[HAMel]

The Lord provides us with detailed information on how to come to Him for Salvation.

If we can lose it or give it away or surrender it..., where the detailed information on how to do so?

 

[Bobby Hamilton]

The Lord provides us with detailed information on how to come to Him for Salvation.

If we can lose it or give it away or surrender it..., where the detailed information on how to do so?

Yes. That's sort of what I'm asking. :thumbsup:

 

[freeatlast]

I may have quoted you but was asking in general. And my apologies for all the words I spelled incorrectly in that statement. Man was that bad.

I guess let's look at it this way: Through God we should be able to accomplish anything. But we are born into a sinful world and through God's grace we have the ability to obtain everlasting life. My interpretation is that even after Salvation, we still live in a sinful world and will sin. There is no way around it. But at that point we are convicted and seek to right those wrongs and ask forgiveness. My question implies if we have an area that we struggle with and have not been able to conquer...if we suddenly drop dead while not yet conquering that particular sin, are we bound for hell? Were we never saved? Is any one sin enough to doom us to hell after we are saved?

That's what I don't see the Bible being clear on. We know what to do to be saved. But what "one thing" can unsave us? (I guess this would be more pointed at the person who was saying we can lose our salvation).

Bobby again this is like asking can God create a rock so big that He cannot lift it. I know you are not intending on asking that way but that is what you are asking.
First you have to understand that no believer, saved person will go to hell. It does not matter what sin they do in this life after salvation and even if they die on the spot while doing the sin they still go to heaven. The only problem is who wants to meet their Lord on those grounds even if it is heaven?

The issue is not about if they go to heaven or not, the issue is are they saved or not, but like I said any believer is capable of any sin even after they are saved. What we are not capable of is the practice of sinning. 1John 3 That is sinning without any regard or desire to confess and repent. That person is lost. They sin at will and have no conviction. It is just the way they are. They are like the hog that returns to the mire and the dog to his vomit. It is there nature. Cleaning up the outside for a season has no effect on the inside.
Also what you need to understand is that you have been taught some false teachings. Here is what I mean from what you said;
"My interpretation is that even after Salvation, we still live in a sinful world and will sin. There is no way around it."

Here is a problem. As long as you believe that there is no way around sin you will never be able to get over the sin. God says this;
1Cor 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].

Here is your way out; "but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape"

Once we are saved we do not sin because we are in a sinful world. We sin because we are still in the flesh and our love for the flesh in some areas is greater then our love for God. Until we can accept this and confess this we will never be able to properly confess and overcome the sin that we are caught in. We all are able to beat our sin, but first we have to accept it is really our doing and not something that is too difficult for us to overcome.

So if you are battling some sin or know of someone who is then what they need to do is first accept that the sin is because you love the flesh more then God. You are not being overwhelmed where you cannot resist. God has provided a way of escape if you will take it. The person with this battle needs to get with some older person who is wise in the spirit who will lead and who they can explain their battle to and will pray with them and point them in the right direction. Remember we are in a war and we are not to fight it alone. So if anyone really wants victory all they have to do is desire it above the pleasures of the flesh.

 

[HAMel]

FAL, we "all" battle sin on a daily basis.

Is there are part of this you don't understand? None of us are perfect and while we might have certainly put away a few specif sins long ago doesn't mean we aren't tempted day in and day out. Satan never gives up!

 

[freeatlast]

FAL, we "all" battle sin on a daily basis.

Is there are part of this you don't understand? None of us are perfect and while we might have certainly put away a few specif sins long ago doesn't mean we aren't tempted day in and day out. Satan never gives up!

My friend it is not I who does not understand. It is you. Battling sin and giving into it is two different things. God has provided a way of escape, but you have to want it more then the sin. Overcoming sin does not make us perfect, but claiming to not being perfect does give the person loving the sin an excuse at least in their mind even if not in God's.

 

[HAMel]

Why do I get the impression we're on two different wave lengths here.

I sin on a daily basis but that does not indicate that I love the sin. It just happens. It just happens unless one is perfect, I suppose and for sure, I'm not perfect. I'm only forgiven.

 

[righteousdude2]

Maybe This Will Help? And Maybe It Won't? But, Hey, I Tried!

Why do I get the impression we're on two different wave lengths here.

I sin on a daily basis but that does not indicate that I love the sin. It just happens. It just happens unless one is perfect, I suppose and for sure, I'm not perfect. I'm only forgiven.

Years ago, way back during the infamous "Jesus People Movement" in the late 60' and through the 70"s when churches started in city parks, and Chuck Smith's Calvary Chapel moved across the nation like a mighty rushing wind, a revival had its beginnings. At the same time, a young Arthur Blessit carried the cross around the world! It was at this time of spiritual excitement that a bumper sticker showed up that actually supports HAMel, as well as my understanding of His unconditional, eternal love.

The sticker simply says: "Christians are not perfect, JUST forgiven!"

That sticker slogan has stuck with me over the years, and when someone judges me, or another for not being perfect, or when they see us slip up (and point an accusing finger in our face) I say, "Praise God! I'm not perfect, friend, JUST forgiven!"

Is this not what it means to be saved forever? Is this not the principle and root meaning behind the once saved, always saved doctrine?

I believe it is a reaffirmation of meaning of once saved always saved, and it further supports my faith and trust in the Father, and His Son's work on the cross to save me, because my name was once and foreverWRITTEN in the Lamb's Book at this point when I accepted and received Jesus into my heart and life.

Spiritual hair splitting is what causes those on the fence not to cross over to the C It also causes those who have backslidden, or taken a prodigal walk to take longer to come back, as these arguments can actually send a message serious doubt to the fallen, and be used by the devil to tighten his hold on their sin!

Somewhere between what FAL is saying, and what HAMel and I and others have shared is the truth.

Like we already discussed, during my fifteen year prodigal walk, I prayerfully tried to find my way back home, but those who fall must hit bottom in their sin, before they can make a meaningful decision to come back.

Look at the prodigal son! He had to run out money, and end up eating with the pigs (his bottom) before he realized that his returning to his dad's farm, even as an employee, or slave, would be a better life than the one he made for himself.

Once he realized that he had no where to go but up, he went back home, and like a true father son relationship, the PS was accepted warmly back into the family, as if he had never been gone. This could only be done because the PS never forsook his birth right. His name was solidly written in his dad's family book of life.

Semantics is what's separating FAL from the doctrines of others, and I can only hope FAL will repent of his rigid spiritual view and attitude toward those who have gone prodigal (backslidden).

I know, that I know that my name was written in that Book on Christmas Eve 1966, and regardless of my reckless prodigal decisions, He never erased my name from that book, and I'll tell you I felt and knew His hand upon me as HE let me go to shipwreck status, which meant I had finally hit my bottom. A bottom that came about because of spiritual guilt, frustration in my ability to turn my life around, and the fear of the darkness that was growing ever darker around me the further I walked.

Once I realized I could not turn myself around, and that the Father had been there all the time, hands out, just waiting for me to take those hands and let Him pull me out of the mired clay of sin. Like Peter, when he went under in the angry sea water, Jesus stretched out His hand. It was up to Peter to lay aside his pride, and the sin of not trusting the Savior to keep his feet on top of each angry, crashing wave, and simply reach back to Jesus and not drown.

Question: Would Peter have gone to hell for that incident had he not reached out and let Jesus save him from the foam of the sea? I think not. Peter's salvation and place in eternity had already been set when he was called by Jesus. And let's not forget, this same Peter, denied knowing Jesus, not once, but three times. Again, he did not lose his place in eternity, as Jesus came and sought him out to let him know that all was all right!

 

[Bobby Hamilton]

Bobby again this is like asking can God create a rock so big that He cannot lift it. I know you are not intending on asking that way but that is what you are asking.
First you have to understand that no believer, saved person will go to hell. It does not matter what sin they do in this life after salvation and even if they die on the spot while doing the sin they still go to heaven. The only problem is who wants to meet their Lord on those grounds even if it is heaven?

The issue is not about if they go to heaven or not, the issue is are they saved or not, but like I said any believer is capable of any sin even after they are saved. What we are not capable of is the practice of sinning. 1John 3 That is sinning without any regard or desire to confess and repent. That person is lost. They sin at will and have no conviction. It is just the way they are. They are like the hog that returns to the mire and the dog to his vomit. It is there nature. Cleaning up the outside for a season has no effect on the inside.
Also what you need to understand is that you have been taught some false teachings. Here is what I mean from what you said;
"My interpretation is that even after Salvation, we still live in a sinful world and will sin. There is no way around it."

Here is a problem. As long as you believe that there is no way around sin you will never be able to get over the sin. God says this;
1Cor 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].

Here is your way out; "but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape"

Once we are saved we do not sin because we are in a sinful world. We sin because we are still in the flesh and our love for the flesh in some areas is greater then our love for God. Until we can accept this and confess this we will never be able to properly confess and overcome the sin that we are caught in. We all are able to beat our sin, but first we have to accept it is really our doing and not something that is too difficult for us to overcome.

So if you are battling some sin or know of someone who is then what they need to do is first accept that the sin is because you love the flesh more then God. You are not being overwhelmed where you cannot resist. God has provided a way of escape if you will take it. The person with this battle needs to get with some older person who is wise in the spirit who will lead and who they can explain their battle to and will pray with them and point them in the right direction. Remember we are in a war and we are not to fight it alone. So if anyone really wants victory all they have to do is desire it above the pleasures of the flesh.

You aren't interpreting me correctly. When I say "we live in a sinful world and there is no way around it"...that's also me saying "We live in a sinful world and that's a fact"

I'm not saying Christians can't get around sin.

 

[Bobby Hamilton]

Bobby again this is like asking can God create a rock so big that He cannot lift it. I know you are not intending on asking that way but that is what you are asking.
First you have to understand that no believer, saved person will go to hell. It does not matter what sin they do in this life after salvation and even if they die on the spot while doing the sin they still go to heaven. The only problem is who wants to meet their Lord on those grounds even if it is heaven?

The issue is not about if they go to heaven or not, the issue is are they saved or not, but like I said any believer is capable of any sin even after they are saved. What we are not capable of is the practice of sinning. 1John 3 That is sinning without any regard or desire to confess and repent. That person is lost. They sin at will and have no conviction. It is just the way they are. They are like the hog that returns to the mire and the dog to his vomit. It is there nature. Cleaning up the outside for a season has no effect on the inside.
Also what you need to understand is that you have been taught some false teachings. Here is what I mean from what you said;
"My interpretation is that even after Salvation, we still live in a sinful world and will sin. There is no way around it."

Here is a problem. As long as you believe that there is no way around sin you will never be able to get over the sin. God says this;
1Cor 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].

Here is your way out; "but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape"

Once we are saved we do not sin because we are in a sinful world. We sin because we are still in the flesh and our love for the flesh in some areas is greater then our love for God. Until we can accept this and confess this we will never be able to properly confess and overcome the sin that we are caught in. We all are able to beat our sin, but first we have to accept it is really our doing and not something that is too difficult for us to overcome.

So if you are battling some sin or know of someone who is then what they need to do is first accept that the sin is because you love the flesh more then God. You are not being overwhelmed where you cannot resist. God has provided a way of escape if you will take it. The person with this battle needs to get with some older person who is wise in the spirit who will lead and who they can explain their battle to and will pray with them and point them in the right direction. Remember we are in a war and we are not to fight it alone. So if anyone really wants victory all they have to do is desire it above the pleasures of the flesh.

Also, how do you get the parallel that my statement is like asking "Can God create a rock so big he can't lift it"? I'm not even remotely going in that directly.

I'm just saying: If we can lose our salvation, what do we have to do to lose it? Where does God actually tell us that?