George Antonios
Well-Known Member
You did not answer the questions.
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Loss of salvation---the Extent
- Thread starter Quantrill
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George Antonios
Well-Known Member
That's talking about Christ being the firstborn from the dead as 3 verses down say.
Minute 13:10 on.
37818
Well-Known Member
Simply because "firstborn" refers to His post incarnation resurrection per Colossians 1:18. See Acts of the Apostles 13:33 about Psalms 2:7.
I certainly did.
You do not accept my answer.
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
You did not, because you can't.
No it isn't. (Col. 1:15) "every creature".
You ignore all of post #(90) except for one question. And you answer it wrong.
Quantrill
'First born of every creature' speaks to every creature. Christ has the priority that the title 'firstborn' carries. Though the resurrection is involved, in time, Christ was not the first born. (Ps. 89:27) "Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth."
My point was explained in post #(90). George Antonios is saying (Eph. 1:4) 'before the foundation of the world' speaks to the believer when he comes to Christ, because until the believer comes to Christ, he is not in Christ. Which is incorrect as this verse, (Col. 1:15) and others prove. Which again I explained in post #(90).
In other words, Christ's being the first born from the dead occurred in time at the resurrection. But His being the first born of every creature covers all of creation and those who were born ahead of Him.
Quantrill
You do not practice what you preach or assert since you do not answer questions that have been asked you.
You are wrong if you think that questions determine or establish truth. Some questions are invalid since they assume as true premises that have not been proven to be true.
I did. You cannot accept the answer.
37818
Well-Known Member
It is my position the term "firstborn" refers to His bodily resurrection per Colossians 1:18, Revelation 1:5. He had became part of His own creation as Creator through HIS Incarnation and of His New Heaven and Earth Romans 8:21-23, per Colossians 1:18, Revelation 3:14, in His bodily resurrection. John 1:3.
You're ignoring 'firstborn of every creature'. You want to center only on the word 'first born'.
That's like saying every time the word fire is used, it means hell. Every time the word water is used it means baptism.
Quantrill
Good questions.
If it is to talk of the Scriptures, and not imaginations, conjectures, presumptions, or whatever, the answer is in Romans 4: v.17 and Hebrews 4: v.3, in my understand.
Hebrews 4:3 - For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
From the fundation of the world - Which world or Which of the worlds? There are several.
Hebrews 11:v.3 - Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the Word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Rom.4: 17 - (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
We are within a world that already has developed and suffered all kind of mutations under the action and effect of the Word of God - God is Spirit - moving on the face of the waters (waters-Revelation 17: v.15) in the world.
In his prayer JESUS said to the Father: John 17: v.4. "I have glorified thee on the earth (Israel): I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do (in Israel-John 1:v.11-12)"-
Afterwards, JESUS said:17:11-And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom you hast given me, that they may be One, as we are. (Very very hard, but not impossible God to do)
Before the fundation of the world
When it is read; "before the foundation of the world", where does the readers' mind go? There are even those who make interplanetary trips mentally, and they try to develop a cunning theory to adapt at their "science of Universe".
I ask myself: chosen before of which world or from which of the worlds? For me the object is more deeper than it seems.
I do not go to list the worlds here and now, according my understanding, what matters is a good and true interpretation of the Word of God. Again: Hebrews 11:v.3 - Through faith we understand that the worlds (several worlds) were framed by the Word of God -the Word is God -, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. (Very deeper than we think)
That said, in my understand the people of God have been chosen and accounted worthy to obtain the next world, the world to come, which will be established yet, that is the millennial Kingdom of God, as JESUS said: Luke 20:v.35-36:
35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world (the next world, and one of the worlds that were framed), and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
By the way, the world to come has not yet been built, of course, but the project is ready completely, there's a lot material and structures, I think that each one of us should even to be united, coming together more and more to be part of that millenial construction. This is what JESUS asked God the Father: John 17: v.22-24:
22 The glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be One, even as we are One: (It is not easy; it will be very very hard, but not impossible God to do - God is Spirit)
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in One; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. Verse 20: Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
Ephesians 1:v.3-13
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: (we currently have two heavenly places, one inactive and the other active, but both will be DISSOLVED from now on.)
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself(John 1:v.12), according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the DISPENSATION of the fulness of times he might gather together in One all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Philippians 3:v.20-21
20 Our conversation is in heaven(Ephesians 1:v.3); from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
Amen
37818
Well-Known Member
No I am not. The meaning of "firistborn" in Colossians 1:15 is defined by its context in Colossians 1:18. And literally "of every creature" refers to Christ as a creature. He became part of His Own creation by way of His incarnation. And so is the firstborn of His New Heaven and Earth by was of His bodily resurrection.
Not at all, Matthew 1:25. The fact is, the term "firstborn" is used to refer to Christ's bodily resurrection, Romans 8:29, etc,
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