Loss of salvation---the Extent

[AustinC]

You. Were. Not. In. Him. Before. The. Foundation. Of. The. World.

Yet God says this:

Ephesians 1:3-6
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

What are you missing when the Bible says He (God) chose us...in Him (in Christ) before the foundation of the world.

God proves you a liar, George. We read God telling us that we were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. How can you deny what God says by saying..."You. Were. Not. In. Him. Before. The. Foundation. Of. The. World."???

 

[Quantrill]

Claiming Adam and Eve were in Heaven.

I have pointed out to you already that if you read my full statement, I didn't say that. You quoted only part of a sentence. All you have to do is read the complete sentence.

Here is my quote from the opening post. "Adam and Eve were present with God in a pristine environment, free from sin."

Here is my quote from post #(13). "I have mentioned satan and Adam and Eve as examples of those who were in Heaven or in a sin free environment in the presence of God, but who fell away."

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

You. Were. Not. In. Him. Before. The. Foundation. Of. The. World.

You were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. (Eph. 1:4) Who should I believe? You or God.

The Man Jesus Christ didn't exist before the foundation of the world either. Did He? Yet we are told in (Col. 1:15) that He is "the firstborn of every creature".

And concerning (Pro. 8:30-31), it is speaking of wisdom of God personified. Many hold that it is speaking of Christ also. But, it doesn't matter whether it speaks to Wisdom only or Christ also. The point is that this Wisdom takes us back before the very creation. (Pro. 8:21-29) "While as yet he had not made the earth" (26)

And what does this Wisdom say? (Pro. 8:30-31) "Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and and my delights were with the sons of men."

God knew His people long before they were physically born into this fallen race of Adam. Or, do you think otherwise?

I understand the doctrine of election is impossible for some to accept. But it is just a side argument in this thread. Whether or not one holds to election, the work of God with Christ in our salvation is finished and applied to the believer when he believes. And the believer stands now in an imputed righteousness obtained by faith. Just as he will for all eternity.

If you can lose that here, for whatever reason, then you can lose it there also. Because here is where it was obtained. And it was obtained on the basis of belief. Not works. Not sins, or lack of sins. For God to change that now, He would have to be seeing my sinfulness and my righteousness causing Him to say 'enough, your outta here.' Imputed righteousness is forsaken. If that is forsaken, then you can just as easily lose your salvation in Heaven.

I think many are insulted in thinking that for all eternity, we stand only in the righteousness of Another. Not our own.

Quantrill

 

[37818]

I have pointed out to you already that if you read my full statement, I didn't say that. You quoted only part of a sentence. All you have to do is read the complete sentence.

Here is my quote from the opening post. "Adam and Eve were present with God in a pristine environment, free from sin."

Here is my quote from post #(13). "I have mentioned satan and Adam and Eve as examples of those who were in Heaven or in a sin free environment in the presence of God, but who fell away."

Quantrill

Thank you for clarifying that. I personally would have added the word "either" between "were" and "in Heaven."

 

[George Antonios]

What are you missing when the Bible says He (God) chose us...in Him (in Christ) before the foundation of the world.

God proves you a liar, George. We read God telling us that we were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. How can you deny what God says by saying..."You. Were. Not. In. Him. Before. The. Foundation. Of. The. World."???

You were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. (Eph. 1:4) Who should I believe? You or God.

You know, Jung was rightly paraphrased as teaching that "men do not have ideas, ideas have men".
You brethren are so ideologically possessed of the Gnostic Calvinist philosophical system that you cannot read any Bible passage whose tenor correlates with the system without matching it to your system.
You are now at the point of claiming that you were in Christ all the way back before the world began despite the plainest verses teaching you that you only got in Christ the day you believed on him, having been born in Adam.
And you call me a liar for referring to scriptures on that point.
This is just mad.

 

[AustinC]

You know, Jung was rightly paraphrased as teaching that "men do not have ideas, ideas have men".
You brethren are so ideologically possessed of the Gnostic Calvinist philosophical system that you cannot read any Bible passage whose tenor correlates with the system without matching it to your system.
You are now at the point of claiming that you were in Christ all the way back before the world began despite the plainest verses teaching you that you only got in Christ the day you believed on him, having been born in Adam.
And you call me a liar for referring to scriptures on that point.
This is just mad.

Who is the accuser of the brethren, George.
The text is clear. Why do you fight against the words of God?

Ephesians 1:3-6
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

Read what God says, George. Believe what God tells you, George.

You can accuse the saints all you want, George, but the word of God stands firm.

I believe because God tells me so.

 

[George Antonios]

Who is the accuser of the brethren, George.
The text is clear. Why do you fight against the words of God?

Ephesians 1:3-6
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

Read what God says, George. Believe what God tells you, George.

You can accuse the saints all you want, George, but the word of God stands firm.

I believe because God tells me so.

According to the word of God:

1. Were you in Christ before the world began?
2. Were you in Christ before you existed?
3. Were you in Christ before you were in Adam?

 

[AustinC]

According to the word of God:

1. Were you in Christ before the world began?
2. Were you in Christ before you existed?
3. Were you in Christ before you were in Adam?

What does God say?
"even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him."

Do you believe what God says?

 

[Quantrill]

Thank you for clarifying that. I personally would have added the word "either" between "were" and "in Heaven."

You're quite welcome.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

You know, Jung was rightly paraphrased as teaching that "men do not have ideas, ideas have men".
You brethren are so ideologically possessed of the Gnostic Calvinist philosophical system that you cannot read any Bible passage whose tenor correlates with the system without matching it to your system.
You are now at the point of claiming that you were in Christ all the way back before the world began despite the plainest verses teaching you that you only got in Christ the day you believed on him, having been born in Adam.
And you call me a liar for referring to scriptures on that point.
This is just mad.

I think you know by now that I am not in step with Calvinism. I believe much of what it says, but not all. So, I am not trying to make all Scripture fit Calvinistic theology.

Your argument concerning (Eph. 1:4) amounts to this. 'That is what it says, but that is not what it means, because I didn't experience it until the day I believed'.

I asked you how could Christ be the firstborn of every creature, (Col. 1:15, when He wasn't physically born until the virgin birth. How is it that Christ is 'the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world', (Rev. 13:8), when He actually didn't die until Calvary. Are you willing to say those verses also don't mean what they say because Christ didn't experience it until later?

I do not deny our experiences in this salvation occurring in time. But I do deny God's work of salvation being restricted by our experience in time. As I have said, as Scripture says. (Acts 15:18) "Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world." Do you see yourself as glorified before God at this time? (Rom. 8:30) "...and whom he justified, them he also glorified." Of course not. But God sees you that way. Doesn't He?

Your interpretation of (Eph. 1:4) completely removes "before the foundation of the world". That phrase is not necessary in your interpretation. It could read thus: "According as he hath chosen us in him that we should be holy and without blame before him in love". Correct? If not explain.

Quantrill

 

[Barry Johnson]

Not one will be lost, if Jesus found them.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Anyone suggesting biblical salvation can be lost does not understand biblical salvation.

Its better to look to the new testament than the old for eternal security.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Proverbs 14.12
12.There is a way that seems right to a person, but its end is the way to death.


Proverbs 16.2.25
2.All one's ways may be pure in one's own eyes, but the Lord weight the spirit.

25.Sometimes there is a way that seems to be right, but in the end it is the way to death.


Matthew 24.24
24.”False-christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead if possible even the elect.“


1Timothy 1.19
19.having faith and a good conscience. By rejecting conscience, certain persons have suffered shipwreck in the faith,


1Timothy 4.1
1.Now, the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will renounce the faith by paying attention to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,


1Timothy 6.10
10.The love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, and in their eagerness to be rich some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pains.


Hebrews 6.4-6
4.It is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened and have tasted the Heavenly gift and have shared in the Holy Spirit,

5.and have tasted the good word of GOD and the powers of the age to come,

6.and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of GOD, and put Him to open shame.


Luke 8.12
From Jesus’ Parable about the sower
12.The once on the path are those who have heard, then devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.


2Peter 2.19-22
20.Fot it, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first.

21.It would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn from the holy commandment that was passed on to them.

This is called interpreting the clear by unclear verses .

 

[Barry Johnson]

What does God say?
"even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him."

Do you believe what God says?

He's talking to already saved people. They are already ' in him ' . Notice the ' according ' in verse 3 it joins verse 4 . The blessings are chosen in him and are only available once in him . If you think in any sense you were chosen to be in him or that you were actually were in him before you existed .
Chapter 2 verse 11-12 completely refutes any Gnostic / hindu fatalism / determinism.
This was US before we got in a preexisting eternal being :

11¶Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12That at that time ye were without Christ , being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having ! no hope , and without God in the world:

 

[AustinC]

He's talking to already saved people. They are already ' in him ' . Notice the ' according ' in verse 3 it joins verse 4 . The blessings are chosen in him and are only available once in him . If you think in any sense you were chosen to be in him or that you were actually were in him before you existed .
Chapter 2 verse 11-12 completely refutes any Gnostic / hindu fatalism / determinism.
This was US before we got in a preexisting eternal being :

11¶Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12That at that time ye were without Christ , being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having ! no hope , and without God in the world:

Sigh...
Is God bound in the confines of time and space?
If (since) God knows all things at all times, is it too much that God would do exactly as He says in Ephesians 1:4?

even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.

Notice how Paul speaks of God as being outside of time, but when speaking to men he speaks of them being within a timeline.

Please, do not drag God down and attempt to force Him to live under a timeline. To do such is to view God as less than and thus view God as constrained and weak. I do not think that is the God who expresses Himself in the Bible. He is not constrained.

 

[Iconoclast]

Its better to look to the new testament than the old for eternal security.

I do not believe in the teaching of eternal security,but rather the biblical teaching of perseverance of the saints.
I can find it all through the bible.
Your post suggests you are making guesses but do not know.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Sigh...
Is God bound in the confines of time and space?
If (since) God knows all things at all times, is it too much that God would do exactly as He says in Ephesians 1:4?

even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.

Notice how Paul speaks of God as being outside of time, but when speaking to men he speaks of them being within a timeline.

Please, do not drag God down and attempt to force Him to live under a timeline. To do such is to view God as less than and thus view God as constrained and weak. I do not think that is the God who expresses Himself in the Bible. He is not constrained.

Philosophy. Don't assume you understand God and what he did before Genesis 1. 1 .
Calvinism is literally a philosophy that assumes to know more about how God can or cannot do things before Genesis . And yet has no clue whats going on that is actually revealed in the scriptures.

 

[Barry Johnson]

I do not believe in the teaching of eternal security,but rather the biblical teaching of perseverance of the saints.
I can find it all through the bible.
Your post suggests you are making guesses but do not know.

That's why you NEED the P ,because you can't point to anything in the scriptures that your one of the elect beyond your works . Thats why your stuck in the OT trawling verses before the cross, not realising things are different after the cross . Like John 12.32 . But instead you work backwards and cling to the old testament John 6 ?

 

[Barry Johnson]

I do not believe in the teaching of eternal security,but rather the biblical teaching of perseverance of the saints.
I can find it all through the bible.
Your post suggests you are making guesses but do not know.

Because there is no security in Calvinism, let alone eternal security.

 

[Barry Johnson]

I do not believe in the teaching of eternal security,but rather the biblical teaching of perseverance of the saints.
I can find it all through the bible.
Your post suggests you are making guesses but do not know.

Are you not sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption? Eph 4.30 .

 

[Iconoclast]

That's why you NEED the P ,because you can't point to anything in the scriptures that your one of the elect beyond your works . Thats why your stuck in the OT trawling verses before the cross, not realising things are different after the cross . Like John 12.32 . But instead you work backwards and cling to the old testament John 6 ?

Spare me your thoughts from this misguided and theologically challenged lecture. Your ignorance of God's revealed scriptures and how they progressively reveal the centrality of Christ is epic.
You show you do not follow what others have already offered, and are not looking for any answers,so none will be given.