Loss of salvation---the Extent

[37818]

It seems you don't want to answer the question. Interesting. So, why post anything? What do you 'speculate'?

Quantrill

At issue is who does the saving. Ourselve holding on to God by our choice to believe or God who saves us not of ourselves but His gift saving us and keep us which we cannot do for ourselves.

 

[George Antonios]

A person is not "with the Lord" "in Heaven" when one dies.

New Testament:

2Co_5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Php_1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

Act 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
Act 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
[...]
Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

 

[George Antonios]

To those who hold in any way this form of doctrine, I have a question. And, even to those who don't hold to this doctrine, it is still a question to consider.

What is the extent or range that this doctrine reaches? In other words, after you die and are with the Lord in Heaven, is this threat still there?

At first this will sound ludicrous, but consider. lucifer was present with God in heaven when he sinned against God. Adam and Eve were present with God in a pristine environment, free from sin. Yet, they sinned against God.

If one believes you can lose your salvation here and now, why can't you lose it there and then?

What difference is there to insure that no believer will do the same in Heaven as lucifer or Adam and Eve?

Quantrill

Excellent question.

The difference for us Christians is that we will be free from the sinful flesh and having glorified bodies and our spirits are one with the Lord which is far more than what innocent Adam or even the angels had/have - so we if can sin, so could God.

But that's only true for the church. People saved in other dispensations don't have our set-up. Hence the tree of life for them (not the church): Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

I don't have a better answer for the non-church saved. I've wondered about that myself. What's to keep other angels of falling in the future? Dunno.

 

[Alofa Atu]

The point of this thread is not whether or not one can lose their salvation here. It is whether or not one can lose it in Heaven. ...

Asked and answered. I gave you the answer, with several points. You rejected that answer. There is nothing more to give you. 2 + 2 = 4. When that is rejected, what more can be given you? I can tell you that 2 + 2 = 1 + 1 + 1 +1, or 2 + 2 = 2 * 2, or 2 + 2 = 8 - 4, or 2 + 2 = A / B, where A = 16, B = 4, but they all mean the same thing in the end, and the simplest answer was provided in 2 + 2 = 4. You have the simplest answer already. Go back, read carefully. If you have any specific questions about the points, then ask about those specific points for clarification, otherwise, speak with those Calvin worshippers who continually idolize the heresy of Calvin's OSAS to cease from their non-helpful input, since they are not addressing the OP, nor the question to the OP.

 

[JonC]

The crux of the issue is how "salvation" is defined. If "salvation" is being saved from an ultimate state or sentence like Hell or Judgment then salvation is a one time event and cannot be lost (either one is saved from Hell or Judgment or one is not). If "salvation" is considered to be saved in the present from something that is now happening, like being saved from the bondage of sin, then perhaps it can be lost. Salvation defined as being saved in the present from something that is not yet present is too abstract.

 

[kyredneck]

The bible describes a non saving faith, that is a fleshly human trust, not a God given faith.

1cor15:
15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

The flesh cannot savingly believe the gospel

<sigh>

Once again, this is a gross misinterpretation on your part. NOT at all what Paul meant by 'believe in vain'.

 

[AustinC]

It seems you don't want to answer the question. Interesting. So, why post anything? What do you 'speculate'?

Quantrill

Read and see what God tells you. If you accept the verses I provided regarding God's Sovereign ordination, you will see that Revelation 21:3-4 answers your question. Will you accept what God tells you?

And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”

Does God keep his promises, Quantrill?

 

[SavedByGrace]

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." (John 5:24)]

"αλλα μεταβεβηκεν εκ του θανατου εις την ζωην", Their ‘passage over’ from death into life has already taken place,—from the state of spiritual death into that ζωὴ αἰώνιος, which in their believing state they ἔχουσι already. All those who have been truly "born-again" by God the Holy Spirit, are said to be "already passover" from spiritual death, to eternal life, which begins the moment the person is saved. "sealed by the Holy Spirit". So in Ephesians 1:13, "In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the Gospel of your salvation, and believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit"

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death" (John 8:51)

"θανατον ου μη θεωρηση εις τον αιωνα", literally, shall certainly not behold death for ever: i.e. shall never behold or experience death. The "born-again" believer has already passed spiritually from "death to life", after they are saved, and can never experience the "second death"

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (John 10:28)

"και ου μη απολωνται εις τον αιωνα και ουχ αρπασει τις αυτα εκ της χειρος μου", . the use of the double negative in the Greek, "ου μη", is a very emphatic denial that those who have been given this eternal life, can "never, not ever, to the ages perish", and neither can anyone snatch them out of My Hand, and the next verse, "My Fathers Hand". Such is the eternal security of the believer. This is same promise that Jesus makes in John 11:25-26, "Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" > "shall never die", ου μη αποθανη εις τον αιωνα, "never, not ever, to the ages perish". the same double negative in the Greek, "ου μη", is used.

"unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" (1 Peter 1:4-5)

"incorruptible", ἄφθαρτος, that is, eternal, immortal.
"guarded", which is, φρουρέω, describe the fortress in which or the garrison by which the Christian is guarded. And the One Who is gurading the believer, is ALMIGHTY GOD!

 

[Iconoclast]

<sigh>

Once again, this is a gross misinterpretation on your part. NOT at all what Paul meant by 'believe in vain'.

I do not understand your objection,here or in 2016.
It seems the verses you offered said the exact same thing.
What do you think believe in vain means?
I think it means to no purpose.

from the other link;
↑
Nonsense....he preached saving truth

There is nothing theoretical about it....

Some denied the resurrection..
..he corrected them
1 Corinthians 15King James Version (KJV)

15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved,
if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you,
unless ye have believed in vain.

At this point there is nothing theoretical at all....and he cautions against a non saving belief. In 3-7...he puts the spotlight on the scriptures that Andy Stanley wants to look away from......
there were people looking to deny the resurrection...he is getting to them, but does not fully do so until vs 12.....it is two different discussions;

 

[Quantrill]

Starting off with an untrue statment is problematic. It now seems it does not matter to you.

And what untrue statement was that?

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

The angels were created in a state of unconfirmed holiness with the ability to make a choice contrary to their nature. The angels that did not choose to follow Lucifer were confirmed in holiness and no longer have an ability to sin.


Joy unspeakable full of glory

And yet, if 'sons of God' are angels also, in (Gen. 6), it speaks to another group of angels who made a decision after satan's rebellion.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

At issue is who does the saving. Ourselve holding on to God by our choice to believe or God who saves us not of ourselves but His gift saving us and keep us which we cannot do for ourselves.

Do you know of any here who will say man saves himself? I doubt it. By their doctrine others may say that is what they are saying. But they never say that.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

Excellent question.

The difference for us Christians is that we will be free from the sinful flesh and having glorified bodies and our spirits are one with the Lord which is far more than what innocent Adam or even the angels had/have - so we if can sin, so could God.

But that's only true for the church. People saved in other dispensations don't have our set-up. Hence the tree of life for them (not the church): Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

I don't have a better answer for the non-church saved. I've wondered about that myself. What's to keep other angels of falling in the future? Dunno.

I agree, the difference is we who are Christian are 'in Christ'. Declared Righteous. Having a righteousness that is not of us. So that even if we ever could sin, we stand only in the righteousness of Christ.

That is an interesting point you make concerning the 'tree of life' and those who are not part of the Church. I have never thought about it but it makes sense. Because in (Rev. 22:2) we are into eternity. That provides an explanation for the need of a tree of life still. Interesting.

I know the angels are elect just as man is. (1 Tim. 5:21) But just as with man, only God knows who they are. I do believe that the angels have been a major part of this rebellion resulting in the salvation of God for man. Since man was created the war rages around mankind and the salvation of individual souls of men. (Heb. 1:13-14) And the angels are part of that war. After all is said and done, I expect the angels have the memory to see and remember what happens when God's authority is questioned and challenged. That should serve as a deterrent.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

Read and see what God tells you. If you accept the verses I provided regarding God's Sovereign ordination, you will see that Revelation 21:3-4 answers your question. Will you accept what God tells you?

And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”

Does God keep his promises, Quantrill?

He sure does. So, because man cannot lose his salvation in Heaven, neither can he lose it here. Correct? Or, are God's promises only binding when we get there?

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

Asked and answered. I gave you the answer, with several points. You rejected that answer. There is nothing more to give you. 2 + 2 = 4. When that is rejected, what more can be given you? I can tell you that 2 + 2 = 1 + 1 + 1 +1, or 2 + 2 = 2 * 2, or 2 + 2 = 8 - 4, or 2 + 2 = A / B, where A = 16, B = 4, but they all mean the same thing in the end, and the simplest answer was provided in 2 + 2 = 4. You have the simplest answer already. Go back, read carefully. If you have any specific questions about the points, then ask about those specific points for clarification, otherwise, speak with those Calvin worshippers who continually idolize the heresy of Calvin's OSAS to cease from their non-helpful input, since they are not addressing the OP, nor the question to the OP.

I already asked you specific questions in post #(3). You didn't answer.

Quantrill

 

[kyredneck]

What do you think believe in vain means?
I think it means to no purpose.

Yes! To no purpose.

...except ye believed in vain....if Christ hath not been raised, your faith is vain

But thank God, Christ HAS been raised, our faith is not vain. Our faith has purpose.

You are inserting FALSE BELIEVERS into this text when Paul is addressing SAINTS.

 

[AustinC]

He sure does. So, because man cannot lose his salvation in Heaven, neither can he lose it here. Correct? Or, are God's promises only binding when we get there?

Quantrill

Your question begs this question:
Who secured salvation in the first place; was it man, by his own merit, or was it God, by grace alone?

My answer is found here:

John 10:27-29
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me,is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

 

[37818]

And what untrue statement was that?

Quantrill

Without you giving context of your argument, . ..

. . . satan and Adam and Eve as examples of those who were in Heaven . . . .

I fail to hear any truth to this opening argument.

 

[Iconoclast]

Yes! To no purpose.

...except ye believed in vain....if Christ hath not been raised, your faith is vain

But thank God, Christ HAS been raised, our faith is not vain. Our faith has purpose.

You are inserting FALSE BELIEVERS into this text when Paul is addressing SAINTS.

I agree that in most all of the epistles Paul is writing to the saints.
The wheat grows alongside the trees until the harvest.
There were those denying the resurrection...like 2tim.2:14-19
The warning is given and they are instructed to mark and avoid any doing or teaching such a falsehood.
Warning passages are a good thing as it indicates that rates pose a danger to people making an profession.

 

[37818]

Do you know of any here who will say man saves himself? I doubt it. By their doctrine others may say that is what they are saying. But they never say that.

Quantrill

Ok. So, simply how does one whom God has saved become lost?