Loss of salvation---the Extent

[SGO]

. Have you ever heard a silly song that starts, "Found a peanut..."?

shoveling coal....went walking...found a peanut....

Thanks for stirring a memory.

 

[Quantrill]

I don't know for sure. But there's no question about one thing ... If you can't lose your salvation by an means, then you can't lose it by believing you can lose it. There are a lot of warnings which seem to be addressed to Christians; such as Romans 8:12-13, which say one may still choose sin and death. So "eternal security" is not a doctrine of which I am completely convinced.

As a math/statistics major, it has long bothered me that terms such as eternal, absolute, ever and never come into play on any person's fate. As many would know, Euclidean geometry plays a major part in mathematical education. But there is non-Euclidean geometry, based on one of Euclid's axioms. He said that, regarding a line in a plane and a point in that plane not in such a line, only one line parallel to the given line exists. But recalling that point, line, and plane are left undefined, there exist 2 other possibilities. One is that NO line can exist which is parallel to the given line, as all lines meet somewhere, given millionths, billionths, trillionths, and so on, of any measurement. The other possibility is that infinitely many lines exist which are parallel to the given line, as infinity is infinitely small (and never smallest). So, can we go to infinity of life never sinning? We already know that Satan and his followers sinned-- turned against God-- so we cannot deny that sin is possible even in the realm in which God is known and seen. So then it would appear that, unless we are literally some form of puppets which don't choose anything, that it is possible.

Having said all that, I will reduce it here to an ultra-elementary level .... Have you ever heard a silly song that starts, "Found a peanut..."?

Yes, I agree. Just because one believes you can lose your salvation, doesn't mean they lose their salvation.

But here again, my point is that if one believes we can lose our salvation here, then they must believe we can lose it there also. Because all the reasons our eternal state is secure, have been secured already for the believer now. See post #(13).

We will never be in Heaven based on our righteousness. We will forever be 'saved sinners' declared righteous by God. Being the very righteousness of God. (2 Cor. 5:21)

For me, this is security. God will never see me outside of Christ. But, that is true now also.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

You actually did get an answer from John 10. Jesus is quite clear.
I will even bold the words so you don't miss them.

John 10:27-29
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me,is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

When a person agrees with me, I tend not to argue with them. You are agreeing with me that we are secure in our salvation. Yet you don't want to agree with me.

So, what is your problem?

If you want to be happier in your verses of choice, that is fine by me. But I am looking at security from another angle. Why does that displease you?

Quantrill

 

[Dave G]

If you have any specific questions about the points, then ask about those specific points for clarification, otherwise, speak with those Calvin worshippers who continually idolize the heresy of Calvin's OSAS to cease from their non-helpful input, since they are not addressing the OP, nor the question to the OP.

Alofa,
Firstly, I'd like to clarify something in case you've never been made aware of it:

Many of those that you call "Calvinist's" do not worship, nor do they even rely on, John Calvin or his teachings on any subject.
They read and believe the word of God for themselves, and do not need men like John Calvin to teach them on any subject that is contained in God's precious word.

Secondly, "Calvinists" do not teach "OSAS" ( "Once Saved, Always Saved" )…
They believe and teach something that many might call, "ISAS", or "IF Saved, Always Saved";
There is a vast difference between the two, that being that we see the Scriptures teaching that many shall profess to know Jesus Christ and call Him "Lord", but in works deny Him ( Titus 1:16 ), as well as not being known of Him ( Matthew 7:21-23 ).
This is why I've suggested that you read Matthew 13 again ( where the Lord speaks of both the parables of the sower and the tares of the field ), and then develops them plainly for the reader to know and learn from.

There are two types of believers...
True and false.

Jesus will not lose any of ones His Father has given to Him, but many who profess Christ will fall away in one way, shape or form.

As for the subject of the OP, I concur...
It is addressed to those who believe that salvation can be lost;
Anyone keeping to topic should be letting those who actually believe that salvation can be lost ( which to me, is an impossibility ), answer it.

Also, may I suggest that you be mindful of the Lord's commands regarding not speaking evil of men when you refer to others who hold differing beliefs about the Scriptures?
Unless of course you don't care about those.



I wish you well sir.

 

[George Antonios]

What's pesky about it?

Ephesians 1:3-14
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

That you weren't in him back before the world began.

 

[Alcott]

As for the game being rigged, well, God is in control of it all.

Just to be clear, you're saying it IS rigged. Correct?

 

[George Antonios]

I don't ignore 'in him' in (Eph. 1:4). As for the game being rigged, well, God is in control of it all.

Quantrill

Then explain how you were in him back before the world began.

As for the game being rigged, I meant the interpretation. One rigs the game when one simply ignores the in him.

 

[kyredneck]

his foreknowledge (1Pe.1:2) of who would believe on Christ

No. Wrong. I 'foreknow' what's going to come up in my garden because I planted the seed. That's a correct understanding of God's 'foreknowledge'.

13 But he answered and said, Every plant which my heavenly Father planted not, shall be rooted up. Mt 15

 

[George Antonios]

No. Wrong. I 'foreknow' what's going to come up in my garden because I planted the seed. That's a correct understanding of God's 'foreknowledge'.

13 But he answered and said, Every plant which my heavenly Father planted not, shall be rooted up. Mt 15

Classic example of a superficially patched up case by ignoring other scriptures:

Jer 2:21 Yet I had planted thee a noble vine, wholly a right seed: HOW THEN art thou turned into the degenerate plant of a strange vine unto me?

 

[AustinC]

That you weren't in him back before the world began.

"He chose us in him" before the foundation of the world.

What's pesky about that?

 

[37818]

No, don't say ok and not answer my question but then ask a question of me. Do you know any here who will say man saves himself?

Quantrill

No. Since it is God who solely does the saving and then solely does the keeping of whom He saves.

 

[37818]

Interesting. You pick part of what I said, ignoring the rest and yet cry about context. Try reading the whole thing. It should become clearer.

Quantrill

What difference is there to insure that no believer will do the same in Heaven as lucifer or Adam and Eve?

Your argument may be otherwise logically valid, but a false premise in the argument makes the whole argument false.

 

[Quantrill]

Just to be clear, you're saying it IS rigged. Correct?

Of course.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

Then explain how you were in him back before the world began.

As for the game being rigged, I meant the interpretation. One rigs the game when one simply ignores the in him.

I don't understand your confusion. Concerning 'before the world began' Christ did not yet exist. So, why doesn't that require 'explanation'? I told you already, (Acts. 15:18).

We who are believers are of Him. We are of God. All those of God, are of God the moment they are born into the human race. Just because they don't know it, is immaterial to God. God knows it. God knows who they are. They are 'lost'. Why? Because they are of God. Those who are not of God, are not lost. They are of their father. They are of the world and satan.

The 'game' is God's. God acts. He doesn't react.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

Your argument may be otherwise logically valid, but a false premise in the argument makes the whole argument false.

And yet you don't point our what that 'false premise' is. And yet you don't seek to disprove that 'false premise'.

And yet you expect your opinion that the whole argument is false, to be accepted.

If you're only trying to please yourself, that is enough. Trying to persuade others?.....I doubt it carries any weight.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

No. Since it is God who solely does the saving and then solely does the keeping of whom He saves.

I have no problem with that. So, what is your problem?

Quantrill

 

[37818]

I have no problem with that. So, what is your problem?

Quantrill

Problem with what?

 

[37818]

And yet you don't point our what that 'false premise' is.

Claiming Adam and Eve were in Heaven.

What difference is there to insure that no believer will do the same in Heaven as lucifer or Adam and Eve?

 

[George Antonios]

"He chose us in him" before the foundation of the world.

What's pesky about that?

You. Were. Not. In. Him. Before. The. Foundation. Of. The. World.

 

[George Antonios]

I don't understand your confusion. Concerning 'before the world began' Christ did not yet exist. So, why doesn't that require 'explanation'? I told you already, (Acts. 15:18).

We who are believers are of Him. We are of God. All those of God, are of God the moment they are born into the human race. Just because they don't know it, is immaterial to God. God knows it. God knows who they are. They are 'lost'. Why? Because they are of God. Those who are not of God, are not lost. They are of their father. They are of the world and satan.

The 'game' is God's. God acts. He doesn't react.

Quantrill

You. Were. Not. In. Him. Before. The. Foundation. Of. The. World.