Loss of salvation---the Extent

[Quantrill]

To those who hold in any way this form of doctrine, I have a question. And, even to those who don't hold to this doctrine, it is still a question to consider.

What is the extent or range that this doctrine reaches? In other words, after you die and are with the Lord in Heaven, is this threat still there?

At first this will sound ludicrous, but consider. lucifer was present with God in heaven when he sinned against God. Adam and Eve were present with God in a pristine environment, free from sin. Yet, they sinned against God.

If one believes you can lose your salvation here and now, why can't you lose it there and then?

What difference is there to insure that no believer will do the same in Heaven as lucifer or Adam and Eve?

Quantrill

 

[Alofa Atu]

To those who hold in any way this form of doctrine, I have a question. And, even to those who don't hold to this doctrine, it is still a question to consider.

Ok, fair enough.

What is the extent or range that this doctrine reaches? In other words, after you die and are with the Lord in Heaven, is this threat still there?

A person is not "with the Lord" "in Heaven" when one dies. See:

Yet, the question can be considered once a person is in Heaven.

At first this will sound ludicrous, but consider.

Not ludicrous, but a good question.

lucifer was present with God in heaven when he sinned against God.

Yep:

Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

2Pe_2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Eze 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
Eze 28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.​

Adam and Eve were present with God in a pristine environment, free from sin.

Yep:

Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.​

Yet, they sinned against God.

Yep:

Job_31:33 If I covered my transgressions as Adam, by hiding mine iniquity in my bosom:

Rom_5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

1Co_15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

1Ti_2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
​

If one believes you can lose your salvation here and now, why can't you lose it there and then?

Several reasons.

What difference is there to insure that no believer will do the same in Heaven as lucifer or Adam and Eve?

Ok, the reasons:

[1] Prophecy of God declares it to be so:

Nah 1:9 What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.

Rev_21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

1Co_15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.​

Sin shall not arise the second time as foretold by God, who knows all things.

[2] All those who were loyal to Lucifer, among the angels, fell with him (Revelation 12; &c). All those angels who had any questions about what was Lucifer was up to, had that fixed at Calvary (AD 31), for the covering was 'torn away' (Colossians 2:15; Psalms 98:2) and they could all see clearly what lay in satan's heart, for it was revealed (murder). Satan and his angels will be completely destroyed (along with all the other rebellious humanity), see Revelation 20, &c. Thus all his influence, and all those who thought like him, is gone forever.

[3] The plan of Salvation, Redemption solves it permanently, by only receiving back into heaven those who have chosen (forever; Joshua 24:15) to keep God's commandments.

Rev_22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.​

[4] The 144,000 (Revelation 7:3-8, 12:17, 14:1-5,6-12, 15:2) will have obtained on earth, by the grace of God, through the Holy Spirit (Revelation 18:1), victory over sin, having received the seal of the Living God, and God can point to them in all of eternity as the examples, that sin is without excuse.

See the Sea of Glass - https://archive.org/download/sea-of-glass/Sea of Glass.pptx​

[5] Christ Jesus Himself, will still have the wounds in eternity, as an eternal reminder of what sin costs, and those who did not know will come to ask Him:

Zec_13:6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.​

God never takes away the freedom of choice, but the choice is made at each moment going forward forever by the redeemed, and by the angels that remained, in Heaven (3rd) and on all the unfallen worlds (who have taken interested in these things).

So, it is not as persons cannot choose, but will have made the decision to never go back, and thus choose God at each moment forward. In effect, since all will have seen the origins of sin, the outworking and results of sin, none will ever desire to go through that again.

 

[Quantrill]

Ok, fair enough.

A person is not "with the Lord" "in Heaven" when one dies. See:

Yet, the question can be considered once a person is in Heaven.

Not ludicrous, but a good question.

Yep:

Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

2Pe_2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Eze 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
Eze 28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.​

Yep:

Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.​

Yep:

Job_31:33 If I covered my transgressions as Adam, by hiding mine iniquity in my bosom:

Rom_5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

1Co_15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

1Ti_2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
​

Several reasons.

Ok, the reasons:

[1] Prophecy of God declares it to be so:

Nah 1:9 What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.

Rev_21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

1Co_15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.​

Sin shall not arise the second time as foretold by God, who knows all things.

[2] All those who were loyal to Lucifer, among the angels, fell with him (Revelation 12; &c). All those angels who had any questions about what was Lucifer was up to, had that fixed at Calvary (AD 31), for the covering was 'torn away' (Colossians 2:15; Psalms 98:2) and they could all see clearly what lay in satan's heart, for it was revealed (murder). Satan and his angels will be completely destroyed (along with all the other rebellious humanity), see Revelation 20, &c. Thus all his influence, and all those who thought like him, is gone forever.

[3] The plan of Salvation, Redemption solves it permanently, by only receiving back into heaven those who have chosen (forever; Joshua 24:15) to keep God's commandments.

Rev_22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.​

[4] The 144,000 (Revelation 7:3-8, 12:17, 14:1-5,6-12, 15:2) will have obtained on earth, by the grace of God, through the Holy Spirit (Revelation 18:1), victory over sin, having received the seal of the Living God, and God can point to them in all of eternity as the examples, that sin is without excuse.

See the Sea of Glass - https://archive.org/download/sea-of-glass/Sea of Glass.pptx​

[5] Christ Jesus Himself, will still have the wounds in eternity, as an eternal reminder of what sin costs, and those who did not know will come to ask Him:

Zec_13:6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.​

God never takes away the freedom of choice, but the choice is made at each moment going forward forever by the redeemed, and by the angels that remained, in Heaven (3rd) and on all the unfallen worlds (who have taken interested in these things).

So, it is not as persons cannot choose, but will have made the decision to never go back, and thus choose God at each moment forward. In effect, since all will have seen the origins of sin, the outworking and results of sin, none will ever desire to go through that again.

Well, everything you present as insuring this will not happen again, has already been accomplished for the believer now? So, apparently the believer cannot lose his salvation. Correct?

In other words, Christ said 'it is finished'. All was done. Just because the end time events still need to be played out, doesn't mean all was not accomplished already in Christ.

What do you base your last two paragraphs on?

So, do you believe you can lose your salvation now? Do you believe you can lose your salvation in Heaven?

Quantrill

 

[37818]

Salvation once obtained can never be lost or else it has never been obtained. God who saves keeps those whom He saves. Those who are saved know God, the yet lost do not as yet know God. There are those who are yet safe, but not yet saved, When they are saved, they shall know God.

 

[Iconoclast]

Not one will be lost, if Jesus found them.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Anyone suggesting biblical salvation can be lost does not understand biblical salvation.

 

[Alofa Atu]

Not one will be lost, if Jesus found them.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Anyone suggesting biblical salvation can be lost does not understand biblical salvation.

Those who are lost, are not merely those who never believed, but even those who believed only for a while (as the texts I provided show; Luke 8:13; Matthew 18:21-35; &c):

Consider the texts again, and look at the word "believeth" as the modifying word. Who was given?

Joh 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Joh 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.​

Do you eat and drink only once, or is it throughout each day? How did Jesus keep the connection with His Father?

Joh 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.​

Anyone suggesting biblical salvation cannot be lost does not understand biblical salvation.

 

[Iconoclast]

Those who are lost, are not merely those who never believed, but even those who believed only for a while (as the texts I provided show; Luke 8:13; Matthew 18:21-35; &c):

Consider the texts again, and look at the word "believeth" as the modifying word. Who was given?

Joh 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Joh 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.​

Do you eat and drink only once, or is it throughout each day? How did Jesus keep the connection with His Father?

Joh 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.​

Anyone suggesting biblical salvation cannot be lost does not understand biblical salvation.

The bible describes a non saving faith, that is a fleshly human trust, not a God given faith.

1cor15:
15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

The flesh cannot savingly believe the gospel

 

[Alex2165]

Proverbs 14.12
12.There is a way that seems right to a person, but its end is the way to death.


Proverbs 16.2.25
2.All one's ways may be pure in one's own eyes, but the Lord weight the spirit.

25.Sometimes there is a way that seems to be right, but in the end it is the way to death.


Matthew 24.24
24.”False-christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead if possible even the elect.“


1Timothy 1.19
19.having faith and a good conscience. By rejecting conscience, certain persons have suffered shipwreck in the faith,


1Timothy 4.1
1.Now, the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will renounce the faith by paying attention to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,


1Timothy 6.10
10.The love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, and in their eagerness to be rich some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pains.


Hebrews 6.4-6
4.It is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened and have tasted the Heavenly gift and have shared in the Holy Spirit,

5.and have tasted the good word of GOD and the powers of the age to come,

6.and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of GOD, and put Him to open shame.


Luke 8.12
From Jesus’ Parable about the sower
12.The once on the path are those who have heard, then devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.


2Peter 2.19-22
20.Fot it, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first.

21.It would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn from the holy commandment that was passed on to them.

 

[Alofa Atu]

Hebrews 6.4-6
4.It is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened and have tasted the Heavenly gift and have shared in the Holy Spirit,

5.and have tasted the good word of GOD and the powers of the age to come,

6.and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of GOD, and put Him to open shame.

Correct.

 

[Alofa Atu]

1cor15:
15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

They "received", they were then "stand[ing]" in the Gospel which was "preached" unto them, and it would be by that, that they "are saved", built upon the condition, "if".

Those two verses say nothing about the flesh. They both speak about faith they received and believing with the mind/heart (memory) the Gospel which was preached unto them. So long as they "st[oo]d" in that, they would be "saved", but the condition is very clear,"if", otherwise, their current belief would become nothing, vain (useless) if they turned away, fall away from that which was believed.

 

[Quantrill]

Those who are lost, are not merely those who never believed, but even those who believed only for a while (as the texts I provided show; Luke 8:13; Matthew 18:21-35; &c):

Consider the texts again, and look at the word "believeth" as the modifying word. Who was given?

Joh 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Joh 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.​

Do you eat and drink only once, or is it throughout each day? How did Jesus keep the connection with His Father?

Joh 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.​

Anyone suggesting biblical salvation cannot be lost does not understand biblical salvation.

The point of this thread is not whether or not one can lose their salvation here. It is whether or not one can lose it in Heaven. The extent of the doctrine 'loss of salvation'.

What assurance does the believer have that he will not exercise his will against God while in Heaven., as lucifer did. As Adam and Eve did. I mean, the believer will have a will won't he? If you say, the believer's will is the same as God's will, then how can man have a will?

If you say man will have a will, but it will never be in opposition to God's will in Heaven because man is a new creature without sin there, I would agree. But, man has that here and now also. (2 Cor. 5:17) (1 John 3:9)

If you say, one can't lose his salvation in Heaven because of all that Christ has accomplished in the work of salvation, well, Christ has already done that and it already applies to the believer here. (Rom. 8:29-30)

So, again, if you have no assurance of salvation here, that you can't lose it, how can you have it in Heaven? If God can't or won't keep you here, what assurance do you have that He will keep you there?

Quantrill

 

[SGO]

Are you sure you were ever born, the first time?
Ok, you trust in that.
Did you birth yourself?
Show the scripture please that proves you brought yourself into the world.
You can lose this first birth yourself by suicide.
But this question is about is the second birth, no?
And proving that you were born the second time.
Did you rebirth yourself?
That is one of the major debates on this forum, whether you were a parent along with God.
Nope.
There is none that doeth good.
So right away you, if you are your own parent, are not a good parent, and that is apparent.
So whosoever wills good or bad.
Who then, was your partner in this second birth?
God?
The Holy One?
Partner with you, a dirty worm?
Well, He thought I was worth saving so he did His miracle and partnered with me.
Seems like it but, nope.
He did it all.
Why would you get the glory?
So you did something(s) bad and lost what you did not make.
A form of suicide.
Your Parent abandoned you to your own devices.
Your own self generated action(s) has triumphed over your second birth.

 

[Quantrill]

I have mentioned satan and Adam and Eve as examples of those who were in Heaven or in a sin free environment in the presence of God, but who fell anyway. There is of course major differences between them and we who are redeemed.

One of which is that they were perfect in their own righteousness. We who are redeemed, stand only in the righteousness of Christ. This is important because those who believe we can lose our salvation here never seem to appreciate that.

So, along those lines, when we do get to Heaven, does our righteousness then play a role in our being there, and in what we do there? No, it doesn't. That doesn't mean we are sinners, but it means we are not there in our own righteousness. And if your smart, you don't want to be there in your own righteousness.

It is this that is our guarantee that our eternal salvation is secure in Heaven and we cannot lose it. I stand in Another's righteousness, Jesus Christ. Not in my own. (Philippians 3:9)

For all eternity, it doesn't matter how many zero's you put on the end of the number one billion, for all eternity we will only stand in the righteousness of Christ. Not our own. That is a humbling thought to me. And when is this obtained? When we get to Heaven? No. When we place faith down here on this sin ridden Earth in these sin ridden bodies of ours. (Rom. 3:22)

So, to stay true to the theme of this thread, to those who believe we can lose our salvation here, what caused God and Christ to revoke the gift of faith that we professed, that moved God to declare and impute Christ's righteousness to us? (Eph. 2:8-9) Because that is what it would take to lose our salvation. And, if God and Christ can revoke that gift here, what is there to stop Him from revoking it there.

We are, after all, and for eternity, going to be saved sinners.

Quantrill

 

[AustinC]

It seems that the question of the OP is speculative and one that God has known from before creation.
The Bible speaks of the ordination of God, meaning God says yes or no to any given action of his creation. Thus, I am confident that God's ordinations in heaven will be what he wills.

Romans 13:1

Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

1 Corinthians 2:7
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

1 Corinthians 9:14
Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

Take these words from God and decide what you will.

Revelation 21:3-4
And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”

 

[37818]

Anyone suggesting biblical salvation cannot be lost does not understand biblical salvation.

In Biblical salvation God does the saving and God does the keeping.

 

[37818]

I have mentioned satan and Adam and Eve as examples of those who were in Heaven or . . . .

Adam and Eve were on Earth from their beginning.

 

[Quantrill]

Adam and Eve were on Earth from their beginning.

And, your point is....?

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

It seems that the question of the OP is speculative and one that God has known from before creation.
The Bible speaks of the ordination of God, meaning God says yes or no to any given action of his creation. Thus, I am confident that God's ordinations in heaven will be what he wills.

Romans 13:1

Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

1 Corinthians 2:7
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

1 Corinthians 9:14
Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

Take these words from God and decide what you will.

Revelation 21:3-4
And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”

It seems you don't want to answer the question. Interesting. So, why post anything? What do you 'speculate'?

Quantrill

 

[37818]

And, your point is....?

Quantrill

Starting off with an untrue statment is problematic. It now seems it does not matter to you.

 

[Sai]

To those who hold in any way this form of doctrine, I have a question. And, even to those who don't hold to this doctrine, it is still a question to consider.

What is the extent or range that this doctrine reaches? In other words, after you die and are with the Lord in Heaven, is this threat still there?

At first this will sound ludicrous, but consider. lucifer was present with God in heaven when he sinned against God. Adam and Eve were present with God in a pristine environment, free from sin. Yet, they sinned against God.

If one believes you can lose your salvation here and now, why can't you lose it there and then?

What difference is there to insure that no believer will do the same in Heaven as lucifer or Adam and Eve?

Quantrill

The angels were created in a state of unconfirmed holiness with the ability to make a choice contrary to their nature. The angels that did not choose to follow Lucifer were confirmed in holiness and no longer have an ability to sin.


Joy unspeakable full of glory