Lost by God's Will?

[HankD]

Hello Hank, I've heard it preached that the emphasis is on the word willing where God used a stronger word saying he has decreed Destined and purposed that none of these that he's spoken of perish so the conclusion is Peter is still addressing the elect and those elect to a not saved yet

I understand your reasoning and I respect it but disagree that the word "any" here relates to "all kinds" of men not perishing.

To repeat:
God is not willing that any should perish. Plain and simple, there is no qualifier in the Greek text.
ὃς πάντας ἀνθρώπους θέλει σωθῆναι

The distant context perhaps can be used to make your point but IMO one cannot align that context with the grammatical structure of verse 4.

I cannot explain how it can be that the will of our Sovereign God can be frustrated but scripture implies that it can be so.

Matthew 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

Yes I know there is a verbal hermeneutic for this verse supporting your proposition as well, however there are enough other passages that show His will is broken by evil beings.

True these evil individuals God will hold to account which can only be if they have or had the freedom to resist.
Also true that in the Last Day He will supersede the breaking of His will by turning it to His purpose and be glorified.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Nevertheless 1 Timothy 2:4 has no qualifiers (apart from a distant context) of the word "any" in the text and IMO must be accepted as such even if it appears to defeat your proposition.

 

[Reformed1689]

The OP overlooks the major problem with their position. Do you believe the will of God is always accomplished? Isaiah 46:10 says that He will accomplish his purposes. If His will is truly that all are saved, yet some are not, then you have a major problem here with your interpretation of the passage.

 

[Gorship]

Now this... Will be a good thread.

Sent from my CLT-L04 using Tapatalk

 

[HankD]

Years ago I was given a cigar by one of the men at work - his wife had their first baby.

I took it home and put it on my bureau and forgot it - I didn't/don't smoke - one of my teenage sons took it and smoked it (or tried) he became so sick to his stomach that he vomited.

He confessed, he had violated my will by using a tobacco product, however I felt the sickness was enough punishment and was actually pleased with the outcome. My will also included punishment for violations and that had been satisfied.

 

[Iconoclast]

InTheLight,

A Calvinist redefining words to make his theology fit scripture.

Or A Calvinist who actually understands the passage.

Well, we've never seen this before, ladies and gentlemen, no, never![/QUOTE]
What we have seen is you not understand a passage and blame Calvinists for your lack of understanding. You did not look up the words did you?
[QUOTE]And what about this curious phrase, "the not yet saved elect?" So they are elect, but not yet saved. Hmmm..

.

Let me help you out once again.God has elected people before the world was, and some of them might not have been born yet.. They will be born, and in time God will draw them savingly to faith..

So they are elected but will be born children of wrath, even as others...Have you ever read Eph2:1-3....it speaks of it there. If you have read it, why would you not understand this after all this time?

.

so God elects people in eternity past [/QUOTE

Yes, now you are getting it

and then looks down through the corridors of time

No one said anything about this anywhere did they?

and chooses the moment they will be regenerated and be gifted with the faith they need to overcome total depravity? All of a sudden--BAM! you got faith! BAM! you got faith!

The bible speaks of this as being born from above.God gives a new heart, indwells them with His Spirit. They are enabled to repent and believe. This is described in John3:

 

[Iconoclast]

Pastor_Bob

Of course not; but, does that mean that God wills that they remain lost?[/QUOTE]

When people go into second death, it is God's will that they are eternally lost.

Yes, I believe it included all of these men. The verse is simply stating a timeless truth about the nature and character of our God

.

This is an argument from silence.

Since he is immutable, if He wills all men to be saved now, He most certainly willed all men to be saved then.

While God is immutable, he did not will all men to be saved, then or now.

When the angels came to Sodom, did they preach the gospel to the Sodomites?

I believe the Bible clearly teaches that any man, every man, in any dispensation, who seeks the Lord can be saved

Sure. That is not the problem. The problem as Jesus explained it was the fall has left man so that no one will seek God, no one can come to Jesus unless God seeks and saves him.

That is exactly what I believe this passage and a host of others are saying.

I am sure you believe that, but it is not so.

This is part of Calvinism that I cannot reconcile. It is believing exactly how I believe just calling it something different after the fact.

If people believe, they are believers yes, but no one who God has not elected will ever believe, not one.

 

[Iconoclast]

HankD,

God is not willing that any should perish. Plain and simple, there is no qualifier in the Greek text.
ὃς πάντας ἀνθρώπους θέλει σωθῆναι

Correct, not one of the people spoken of here will perish, each and everyone is going to be saved.
God has decreed, destined and purpose that everyone of them will be saved..

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Hello Pastor Bob,
If correctly understood everyone who goes to Heaven or Hell does so according to God's will.
In 1tim.2 God has purposed to save all kinds of men. The gospel goes worldwide. Salvation is not only among Israelites.
It is all men, rich, poor, young ,old.kings, those in authority.
It is clearly not all men who ever lived.

2pet 3 is speaking of the fact that not one who this passage speaks ,of will be lost.God has decreed,destined,and purposed,[bulemai] that all spoken of here will be saved.
It is not teaching that all.men ever born were considered at all.

Categorically

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Plain and simple, there is no qualifier in the Greek text.

Nor is there any qualifier in, for example, Luke 4:22.
So all [Gk. pantes] bore witness to Him and marvelled at the gracious words.......etc.' Yet doubtless 99.999% of the world's population at that time were not present at the synagogue in Nazareth to hear Him, so they could not possibly have born witness to Him.

See also Luke 4:15. If 'all' were glorifying the Lord Jesus, how come some folk were looking to throw Him off a cliff in verse 29?

This is just me opening the Bible at random and picking a couple of verses with 'all' in them. There are dozens of other examples if you look for them.

 

[1689Dave]

“O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself: It is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.” (Jeremiah 10:23)

 

[Reformed1689]

Those against the Doctrines of Grace still need to reconcile this passage with places like Romans 9. Clearly, God does not prepare everyone for Salvation. And if He does not prepare everyone for Salvation, how can it be His will that all (every person) be saved?

I know that is a passage you do not like to deal with but you can't just ignore it.

 

[loDebar]

The OP overlooks the major problem with their position. Do you believe the will of God is always accomplished? Isaiah 46:10 says that He will accomplish his purposes. If His will is truly that all are saved, yet some are not, then you have a major problem here with your interpretation of the passage.

no, or Satan could not have sinned.
He gives us freedom to love him or not...freely, not as Robots

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Now I understand what you are suggesting, taking your view from what you believe is the over all character of God. I am not sure that view can be sustained.

Brother, I believe it is the biblical view, not just my opinion.

Now I believe it is a proper desire on our part that we would do all we can to remove obstacles and plant seed in those we deal with.

This seems like a contradiction to me. Why would we have to remove obstacles if one's salvation is a forgone conclusion?

While we know election is 100 %biblical, we do not know who are elected so we approach everyone and are used by God to work toward salvation or damnation of the person.

Friend, please know that I am trying to understand your position, but it is very unreasonable in my opinion. Why would God predetermine that a man is to spend eternity in hell and then send you to him and offer him a gift that he cannot accept?

God electing men being an unseen work,no one is stopping a person from believing.
From our standpoint everyone is potentially a believer, God knows them that are His.

It appears as if God Himself is stopping that person from believing. Or, do you believe, as I do, that God knows who would/will accept the free pardon of sin and therefore predestine that individual to heaven?

You say we believe some things the same and zi agree because we have to agree on portions of it.
You think God has sort of left it to man,

That is the big misconception or misrepresentation. I believe that salvation is 100% of God. He and He alone gave us the means of our salvation. It is our responsibility to merely get on board with His conditional plan.

I will do more from my laptop tonight. I like how you are approaching the discussion and believe this can be helpful for all of us to work through

I always enjoy our discussions, Brother.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Does the potter not have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honourable use and another for common use?

Romans 9:21 (NASB)

What does this have to do with salvation?

 

[HankD]

Nor is there any qualifier in, for example, Luke 4:22.
So all [Gk. pantes] bore witness to Him and marvelled at the gracious words.......etc.' Yet doubtless 99.999% of the world's population at that time were not present at the synagogue in Nazareth to hear Him, so they could not possibly have born witness to Him.

See also Luke 4:15. If 'all' were glorifying the Lord Jesus, how come some folk were looking to throw Him off a cliff in verse 29?

This is just me opening the Bible at random and picking a couple of verses with 'all' in them. There are dozens of other examples if you look for them.

Your example is limited because it is limited men doing the witnessing.

in 1 Timothy 2:4 it is almighty God doing the all encompassing desire for mankind made in His image and likeness to be saved from perishing.

But OK I'll try that selective passage thing too.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

Seems Jesus is not only the propitiation for our sins but also for the whole world that is lying in wickedness.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

If not even a sparrow falls to the ground outside of the will of God (Matthew 10:29), it is hard to see that God is powerless to prevent men and women from dying and going to hell.
You will perhaps reply that God is not powerless to prevent this, but that it happens against His will. I ask what power it is that is stronger than God to force Him to act against His will (Psalms 115:3).

Man's will never supersedes or manipulates God's will. God's will is that all men be saved but that they be saved God's way. God is sovereign enough to give man the choice of accepting or rejecting Christ. God ordained the consequences of each choice. That is in no way forcing Him to act against His will.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Your example is limited because it is limited men doing the witnessing.

in 1 Timothy 2:4 it is almighty God doing the all encompassing desire of mankind made in His image and likeness to be saved from perishing.

But you have to explain to me how it is that if Almighty God desires all mankind to be saved, they aren't.

But OK I'll try that selective passage thing too.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

Seems Jesus is not only the propitiation of our sins but also for the whole world that is lying in wickedness.

To take the second one, 1 John 5:19, first, if 'we' are of God then the 'whole world' cannot mean every single person in the world because it doesn't include 'us.'
In 1 John 2:2, we know that God is not propitiated in respect of all the people in the world, so whatever 'the whole world' means, it doesn't mean that. It means Jews, Gentiles, Greeks and Scythians, men and women, young and old, rich and poor, wise and foolish. This is also the meaning of 'world' in John 12:19. It is obviously restricted to the Jewish 'world,' but within that, it refers to all sorts of people..

 

[InTheLight]

Or A Calvinist who actually understands the passage.

Translation: Non-calvinists are dumb. Greek scholars on Bible translation committees that have translated this passage are wrong.

 

[Iconoclast]

Your example is limited because it is limited men doing the witnessing.

in 1 Timothy 2:4 it is almighty God doing the all encompassing desire for mankind made in His image and likeness to be saved from perishing.

But OK I'll try that selective passage thing too.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

Seems Jesus is not only the propitiation for our sins but also for the whole world that is lying in wickedness.

Do those who go to the White Throne a judgment have their sins propitiated?

 

[Iconoclast]

Man's will never supersedes or manipulates God's will. God's will is that all men be saved but that they be saved God's way. God is sovereign enough to give man the choice of accepting or rejecting Christ. God ordained the consequences of each choice. That is in no way forcing Him to act against His will.

If the natural man cannot receive the things of God...how does anyone become saved,if God leaves then to themself?
The man cannot welcome the truth,then he can?
Jesus said no man can come,how do they come on their own?