Lost persons participating in music program

[quantumfaith]

The issue is not the same. The church fathers in Jerusalem were talking about the requirement of circumcision being an "add-on" to faith, and faith plus nothing equals salvation.

It isn't a matter of salvation denying them the ability to participate in worship music. They have no idea what the words they are singing mean. Therefore, they shouldn't sing or play an instrument.

I disagree with you on the instrumentation portion. Singing....yes I agree with you, as I see that more of leading (in some way) in the worship service.

Oh and I most certainly agree that we should not require circumcision. However, I think the principle of that scripture is obvious that we should use caution and careful thought about how we exclude people.

 

[InTheLight]

What does not circumcising gentiles have to do with the thread?

Nothing, but the general principle is there. Doesn't requiring a doctrinal statement from a potential musician before they can make music in the church make it difficult for them to become a believer?

 

[Revmitchell]

Nothing, but the general principal is there. Doesn't requiring a doctrinal statement from a potential musician before they can make music in the church make it difficult for them to become a believer?

It is not a general principle in the way you are trying to apply it. There is a clear and distinct difference between have a relationship with God and requiring a doctrinal statement.

My brother it appears quite disingenuous to equate having a doctrinal statement with a simple profession of faith.

 

[padredurand]

An unsaved person cannot praise the Lord. They cannot worship Him who they despise.

"For Sheol cannot thank Thee, Death cannot praise Thee; Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Thy faithfulness.
Isaiah 38:18 NAS77

Would you let a unsaved man in your pulpit because he was an eloquent speaker in the hope he would be saved in the doing? Would you let an unsaved man teach a Sunday school class because he was a gifted educator in the hope he would be saved in the doing?

A man is not made righteous in singing or playing an instrument and has no place participating in the divine worship of the church.

 

[Thousand Hills]

An unsaved person cannot praise the Lord. They cannot worship Him who they despise.

"For Sheol cannot thank Thee, Death cannot praise Thee; Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Thy faithfulness.
Isaiah 38:18 NAS77

Would you let a unsaved man in your pulpit because he was an eloquent speaker in the hope he would be saved in the doing? Would you let an unsaved man teach a Sunday school class because he was a gifted educator in the hope he would be saved in the doing?

A man is not made righteous in singing or playing an instrument and has no place participating in the divine worship of the church.

Apparently some here in BB land would, the "end" justifies the means. What a small god they have. :tear:

 

[quantumfaith]

Apparently some here in BB land would, the "end" justifies the means. What a small god they have. :tear:

I would not allow a confessed unsaved man in pulpit to deliver a sermon, message or homily. What a red herring, nowhere has that claim been suggested. For that matter, if YOU were to come preach, HOW do I KNOW you are saved? I accept your word and testimony.

 

[InTheLight]

It is not a general principle in the way you are trying to apply it. There is a clear and distinct difference between have a relationship with God and requiring a doctrinal statement.

My brother it appears quite disingenuous to equate having a doctrinal statement with a simple profession of faith.

OK, I would hope that any Bible believing church would ask potential musicians for their testimony before allowing them to play in worship services. I do not have a problem with that, in fact, it should be done. But how far does the questioning go? Would anyone give me an example of how you would screen someone? I'm not being snarky here, I really want to know how you would screen someone.

 

[InTheLight]

I would not allow a confessed unsaved man in pulpit to deliver a sermon, message or homily. What a red herring, nowhere has that claim been suggested. For that matter, if YOU were to come preach, HOW do I KNOW you are saved? I accept your word and testimony.

Precisely. If a person says they are a Christian, how deep do the questions need to get before the pastor is satisfied this person is "cleared" to play piano at their church?

[I wonder what Paul Washer would do....LOL.]

 

[Revmitchell]

OK, I would hope that any Bible believing church would ask potential musicians for their testimony before allowing them to play in worship services. I do not have a problem with that, in fact, it should be done. But how far does the questioning go? Would anyone give me an example of how you would screen someone? I'm not being snarky here, I really want to know how you would screen someone.

The topic of this thread is letting lost people serve in leading music.

 

[Thousand Hills]

I would not allow a confessed unsaved man in pulpit to deliver a sermon, message or homily. What a red herring, nowhere has that claim been suggested. For that matter, if YOU were to come preach, HOW do I KNOW you are saved? I accept your word and testimony.

QF, I didn't address this to you. I was thinking more of the fellow that made the 7th post in this thread. And the comment I made should be viewed in light of a number of other posts recently by this chap.

I don't get why people seem so worried about offending non-believers. Its their sin/pride that keeps them from Christ, not our perceived "exclusion".

 

[InTheLight]

The topic of this thread is letting lost people serve in leading music.

I thought it was about lost people participating, either singing or playing an instrument, not leading, in the music program. Anyway, if you're not going to allow a lost person to participate, you've got to determine whether or not they are lost so my question is pertinent to the OP.

 

[padredurand]

How could an unsaved person participate in worship without lying? Consider this Fanny Crosby hymn:

Praise Him! Praise Him! Jesus, our blessed Redeemer!
Sing, O Earth, His wonderful love proclaim!
Hail Him! Hail Him! Highest archangels in glory;
Strength and honor give to His holy Name!
Like a shepherd, Jesus will guard His children,
In His arms He carries them all day long.
Refrain:
Praise Him! Praise Him! Tell of His excellent greatness;
Praise Him! Praise Him! Ever in joyful song!

At what point does the lying begin? The unsaved cannot praise Him. The unsaved cannot identify Jesus as their Blessed Redeemer. They cannot sing of His wonderful love... need I go on?

Evangelize them on a street corner, in their home or yours, in the pew of the church; by all means reach them for Christ, but not from the platform.

 

[InTheLight]

How could an unsaved person participate in worship without lying?

Have you never heard of a preacher's kid that came to salvation as an adult and had participated in the church's worship programs including the music program for years as a child or teen?

Never heard of a person that sang in the choir for years and then became a believer?

The unsaved cannot praise Him. The unsaved cannot identify Jesus as their Blessed Redeemer. They cannot sing of His wonderful love... need I go on?

So the unsaved cannot praise Him, but yes, they can lie and participate in the music program.

 

[quantumfaith]

Precisely. My church dealt with this issue in the past and it caused nothing but problems from what I've been told. I honestly don't even understand how this is a debatable issue.

It works just fine at our church. Cannot say, at the moment if any of the musicians currently are unsaved, but there has been and I know of two who professed Christ. So I have not an iota of a problem with it.

 

[quantumfaith]

It is debatable because liberals are not holding to biblical standards.

Oh, I see, the lib label. Works all the time.

 

[quantumfaith]

QF, I didn't address this to you. I was thinking more of the fellow that made the 7th post in this thread. And the comment I made should be viewed in light of a number of other posts recently by this chap.

I don't get why people seem so worried about offending non-believers. Its their sin/pride that keeps them from Christ, not our perceived "exclusion".

My apologies, I thought you "piling on top of me". My position, for clarification has nothing to do with offending any unbelievers. We will disagree a bit, I think "In the light" made a valid point regarding the principle of not making it difficult and the scripture he quoted "I think" supports that principle.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

My apologies, I thought you "piling on top of me". My position, for clarification has nothing to do with offending any unbelievers. We will disagree a bit, I think "In the light" made a valid point regarding the principle of not making it difficult and the scripture he quoted "I think" supports that principle.

My question would be, then, how one would justify putting before the congregation an unsaved person whose motivation and purpose for "performing" is self-centered and self-aggrandizing, rather than to the purpose of glorifying God?

 

[quantumfaith]

My question would be, then, how one would justify putting an unsaved person before the congregation, whose motivation for "performing" is self-centered and self-aggrandizing, rather than to glorify God?

That question could in fact be equally posed to anyone on "the platform". Perhaps these "unsaved" musicians enjoy immensely making music. Much like I enjoy helping someone to understand difficult mathematics concepts.

Self-aggrandizement is a challenge to all even the "most spritually" mature.

I know that you are aware of another principle from scripture: "My word will not return unto me void". I recall a "bad church experience" as a young boy. We had a new an relatively young pastor. He was a gifted expositor and articulate preacher. We saw many come to know Christ in a few short years......fast forward. It was revealed that he was a womanizer and had several affairs. Just this "jeopardize" all those who were moved and motivated in part by his ministry? I realize this is not an exact analogy, but you can see how it might fit the debate.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

That question could in fact be equally posed to anyone on "the platform".

No, it can't. It may be questioned what the motive and purpose of some Christians who participate in the music portion of worship. Presumably, that is best left to themselves and the Lord, unless it becomes obvious they are there to "perform" rather than worship. But there is no doubt, an unsaved person knows nothing of glorifying God. So my question stands.

 

[quantumfaith]

No, it can't. It may be questioned what the motive and purpose of some Christians who participate in the music portion of worship. Presumably, that is best left to themselves and the Lord, unless it becomes obvious they are there to "perform" rather than worship. But there is no doubt, an unsaved person knows nothing of glorifying God. So my question stands.

And I stand the same.