Featured Love Alone Saves (Part 2)

Menno, We tell you God can do ANYTHING and EVERYTHING and the HOW and WAY he wants it.

We don't read any scripture with God punishing Adam and Eve with loss of free will or with the capacity to never do good.


We say God can do ANYTHING AND ANYWAY he wants he can EVEN run the world in a Calvinist system.

You say GOD can do anything AND ANYWAY but he is STUCK doing it only in a Calvinist system.

Your idea of GOD has no sovereignty, He can't make folks with free will, He can't even teach anyone to do anything right, let alone tie their shoes .

 

Nope.

John 14

11“Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves.


I got video here which might better explain "BELIEVING" then I can.

And here is the Catechism of the Catholic Church explaining the position:

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"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:



Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:



Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338
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This video will explain "BELIEVING"

 

Hitler showed his true self and it was anything but love for his fellow man a' la' Christ. I have my faith in Jesus Christ as the Savior, He is my advocate before the Father, but I just don't believe that others who do not make the same claim as I and you do are separated from Him. In an unknowing way I think that they embrace Him also and that is what is most important.

Look, I respect your opinion on this as it is a cut and dried issue for you. As for me I look at it differently and my opinion is just as valid as yours. Let's say some of these other folks do indeed see the kingdom, does that in any way lesson your walk with Christ as you have experienced it in this life? I would think not.

 

"Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

Sorry brother show me Muslim or an Athiest who is NOT IGNORANT OF THE GOSPEL.

Its almost a "oxymoron". In heaven there is going to be so much forgiving, folks are going to be gnashing their teeth in anger.

Also "NO FAULT of their OWN" that is a pretty massive butter fly effect umbrella.

 

Indeed, we cannot find free will anywhere in the Bible.

Nowhere do I claim God can't. What I claim is what God declared in scripture.
God says he chooses. God says he predestines. God says he adopts.
Does God say he created free will? If so, share the scripture where that is recorded.

 

"we cannot find free will anywhere in the Bible."

Show me in the bible where it says God gave you a BRAIN.


I guess you don't have a brain?

 

What's your point?

Do you imagine God has lied when he says he chooses, predestines and adopts? Is the problem merely because your mind cannot comprehend how God can have such control over his own creation?

 

It states a particular faith, THAT faith, The Catholic Faith.


"You keep saying a person does not need faith."

Quote me. The only thing I've said is faith ->ALONE<- is not the only means of salvation.


You know these debates would be a lot easier if you actual read the catechism and then actually point out a flaw inside of it.

 

Bump.

@herbert

 

Bump. Still waiting for these questions to be answered.

Crickets...

 

Not at all. Lets cut to the chase here. Every single soul in heaven is ELECT. Can you agree with this?

 

Every single soul...whether heaven or hell, utilyan. Predestination is not just a referring to heaven.

And...this is a display of God's love when he predestines all humanity. Wrap your mind around that...if you can.

 

steaver,

I will get to your other comments as soon as possible. But I'd like to point something out here that I think lies at the heart of this problem. As I see it, you understand salvation according to a particular paradigm. Catholics have their own paradigm. It seems as though a Catholic view on salvation and judgment doesn't exactly line up nicely with the terms of your paradigm. That doesn't, however, mean that a Catholic view is incoherent, unBiblical, or wrong at all. What it means is that our respective paradigms must be considered in order for us to move ahead fruitfully. And this particular passage just so happens to be a passage which may shed a lot of light on our differences. Let's consider it.

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

Consider this: I could have "eternal life" and then lose my possession of that "eternal life" by means of apostasy. For the word "everlasting" or "eternal" here should be understood as a quality of the life I possess in Christ, and not as a description of the duration of time during which I am guaranteed to have it.

Believing upon the Son is what brings about one's possession of that "eternal life" which accompanies belief. However, were one to turn his back upon the Son, he would then lose that "eternal life" which he once possessed.

For nothing in that passage says "He that believes on the Son has eternal life eternally..." So it is that I may, for a time, have eternal life through belief in the Son yet at some later time lose that eternal life through apostasy.

I heard someone explain it this way: If I had an "eternal battery pack" which was an unlimited source of energy for my phone, I could say "Look, I possess eternal power." Then, if I lost that battery pack I would say "I lost my eternal battery power." The fact that I have something with a particular quality (eternality) doesn't mean I will have that something for eternity. So it is that one could believe in Christ and thereby possess eternal life. Through sin and selfishness, though, that person could stray from Christ and come to deny Him altogether. In such a case, that eternal life in which that person once had a share, is now lost to him. He has, therefore, lost the "everlasting life" which came about through "belief in the Son." In his case, then, he had "everlasting life" for a time... But lost it. Just as I may have "everlasting power" (in a battery) for a time... only to lose it.

What you see as verses which support your paradigm are, to a Catholic, understood to contradict the position you're presenting.

What do you think? (and again, I'll get to your other comments as soon as time allows).

In Him,

Herbert

 

@herbert still ignoring the questions.
This must mean he is stumped and unwilling to give up his false beliefs.
@Adonia, and @utilyan also with nothing. Clearly Rome has no grasp of grace, but teaches salvation by works...a heresy from the devil.