For the record, I will not be responding to you, ever. And it's not because I am "stumped."
Oops. This is the verse I should have pasted: "...and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing."
Last edited:
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Love Alone Saves (Part 2)
- Thread starter steaver
- Start date
- Status
For the record, I will not be responding to you, ever. And it's not because I am "stumped."
Oops. This is the verse I should have pasted: "...and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing."
Ok, here is your quote....
"The only thing I've said is faith ->ALONE<- is not the only means of salvation".
Let's just cut through the chase then. Here is the question which was the bases for this thread, you can answer and clear this all up....
Utilyan, can a person hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ and reject Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God who died for the sins of all as the Gospel proclaims, and still be saved by loving thy neighbour? Yes or No?
steaver, I see how you have come to see your "paradigm" as valid (and how you have come to see other competing paradigms as invalid). But I no longer buy it. I no longer accept the tradition which you've come to accept. It was indeed the tradition into which I was born (though I didn't see it as a tradition, but rather, as Scripture, clear and obvious). I have come to accept another tradition, the Catholic tradition, which is the tradition (or traditions) of which St. Paul spoke in 2nd Thessalonians 2:15. I know the Scriptural passages you use to support your position and I see how they're *apparently* convincing. But upon consistent reflection, they're not what they seem.
Anybody can come to understand this verse as a description of those who disagree with them. I could say it about you. You can say it about me. Martin Luther can say it about Cardinal Cajetan.
You're right. I don't know "for sure" if I "will" be saved. For I could fall away. I could pursue worldly interests. I could divorce my wife and desert my family. I could do any number of unGodly things. I pray that by God's grace I will not fall away. But I *could.* Awareness of this fact drives me to cling to the faith, to hold fast to the faith, to see myself as one who is weathering a storm. And by his grace, the storm will pass and I will find myself in His presence.
Missing one Mass, depending upon the circumstances, may be a mortal sin. And I could never perform enough "good deeds" to "earn" or be "owed" Heaven. To suggest such a thing just reveals your misunderstanding of Christian doctrines. And finally, you say "This can only happen if one has never been born again." There are passages from the Scriptures which suggest otherwise.
Consider the following:
1st John 1:8-9: "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
Notice the conditional "if" in the text. "If we confess our sins..."
1st John 2:24-25: "Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he has promised us, eternal life"
Notice the "if" present in the text.
1 Corinthians 15:1-2: Now I would remind you, brethren, in what terms I preached to you the gospel, which you received, in which you stand, by which you are saved, if you hold it fast—unless you believed in vain.
Notice the "if" there.
Colossians 1:21-23: "And you, who once were estranged and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and irreproachable before him, provided that you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel which you heard..."
Notice that the Apostle says "...provided that you continue in the faith."
2 Peter 2:20-22: "For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first . . . It has happened to them according to the true proverb, the dog turns back to his own vomit, and the sow is washed only to wallow in the mire."
Notice how the text describes the possibility that one may "escape the defilements of the world" only to once again become "entangled and overpowered by them..."
steaver,
Again, this is where your unique (unBiblical) tradition comes into play. You're mistaking present knowledge for a future state of being. But I may know now that I am saved and that Christ is my Savior. In 15 or 20 years, however, what will I be doing? I don't know. I hope that I remain close to Christ and His Church. I hope that I remain in a state of grace. But I am well aware of the fickleness of humankind. I am all too familiar with my stiff-necked race. Again, I pray that by God's grace I remain close to Him. But I would never presume such a thing. For to do so would be to underestimate my concupiscence. As CS Lewis once said "No man knows how bad he is till he has tried very hard to be good."
In Him,
Herbert
You don't respond on this issue because you are entirely wrong and have been call out on it.
Your quoting of a random verse, out of context as some vague proof text is a perfect example that you don't know how to respond or provide a legitimate argument for your claim.
Thank you, however, for at least responding and acknowledging you read what I wrote. You are free to follow your heresy unabated. [emoji56]
I don't know, steaver, I just feel confused. Again, I feel that the fact that a Catholic understanding of salvation doesn't square nicely with your paradigm is what's at the root of this whole problem.. So let's just say, for the sake of your argument that Adonia and utilyan are way off (I don't actually believe this to be the case). Let's say that they both think that people who completely reject Christ can be saved by the mere kindness and love they show to their neighbors. Well, in such a case, I would say that they are mistaken and that they would benefit from taking some time to find out what the Church actually teaches in this regard.
Why would a Catholic believe such at thing? Well, many of us are quite confused. Many of us are ignorant. Many of us have deep and abiding problems.
Are there bishops that are going rogue? Sure, there are, occasionally, overseers in Christ's Church who stray from the truth.
Why wouldn't the Pope reprimand them or remove them from their "position"? Well, sometimes a Pope does reprimand a bishop. Also, sometimes a Pope will "adjust" things within a diocese according to the conditions there.
Again, if a person wants to find out what the Church teaches, he should go to the Catechism. For even bishops and popes misstate themselves... But the Catechism doesn't.
In Him,
Herbert
This is a very sad state. For to say such a thing is to say you do not know how that Jesus Christ is in you. If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His. (Romans 8)
There is a difference between knowing Jesus Christ by reading His book and hearing His teachings from the outside looking in, and saying "I like that, sounds pretty good". And knowing Jesus Christ from the inside looking out. Ye must be born-again. If you do not understand what Jesus meant, then I fear for your salvation. For Jesus did explain it quite clearly and His Apostles further explained it for us.
And all those passages you posted, I can and will show you how not one of them conflicts with the surety of the born-again believers eternal life. But I have to get to bed right now. Remember, Jesus Christ is Eternal life. I and Jesus Christ are one. He regenerated me, made me spiritually alive with Himself, a New Creature. Not the old man trying to be good and tow the line. I know Jesus Christ is in me. How can I escape what He has made me? It is finished. I received Him and He performed a miracle within me. It cannot be undone, nor would the Spirit within me ever think such a thing.
Blessings!
Wow Its a simple yes or no question.
Every soul in heaven is elect. Do you agree with this?
BUMP still waiting for Menno to answer if he has a brain.
I only agree if you say that every single person is predestined according to God's choice. Do you agree? It's a simple yes or no answer, utilyan.
Yes.
All that is your experience as you walk with Christ. Herbert has his and I have mine. It's the way we feel as individuals and it has nothing to do with the saving grace of Jesus Christ who is in our lives. Did Jesus not love the doubting Apostle Thomas also?
No Herbert, you are not confused. Our brother steaver has his particular relationship with Christ and you have yours. There is no standard way that each Christian must feel about the whole thing we call salvation and our individual walk with Jesus.
I personally am getting tired of hearing that we all have to feel exactly the same and it you don't you are somehow "wrong" or "not saved". No one has lived my life but me (and you yours) and I look at everything on the basis of the experiences I have gone through - from my sinful life in the past - to the way I live it now.
You are full of prunes.
Predestination - another wacko idea from the rejectionists. The only "predestination" that exists is that God desires all men to be saved, but those same men will have to come to Him of their own free will. We do have a choice - God or the evil one.
Well I think its pretty sad when YOU have to defend us from YOUR GOD, rather then have God defend us.
Romans 10
14How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!”
Wow the best way to answer Paul would be with your take. Which is hearing the gospel is meaningless and does nothing.
I'm surprised your not Calvinist. If its solely in God's court where one is born again and you want to defend us from your god's wrath, shouldn't you be praying to God to fix us rather then wasting your time explaining something we can't possibly understand unless God allows it?
There is nothing you can teach us to merit being born again, correct? God has to make the move.
But hey since your born again, regenerated, one with Christ, then you should have no problem putting a request in to God for us. As Christ says:
Matthew 7
7“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8“For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 9“Or what man is there among you who, when his son asks for a loaf, will give him a stone? 10“Or if he asks for a fish, he will not give him a snake, will he? 11“If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!
Luke 11
13“If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?”
Hey if its useless for me to ask for the Holy Spirit you should ask for me.
If I believed what you think, i'd put you to shame real quick. I'd be like, well don't worry guys I'm a made man ill put in a word for you we are all going to be alright.
Its like if we were all blind, And God decided to give you your sight. Thank God I can see , I didn't do anything God did it all. And then you walk up to us blind folks and whine about, oh hey guys why don't you see? why don't you stop being blind?
Do you debate us for the sake of ridicule? You burden us with something you never handled yourself.
If the shoe was on the other foot and I believed your theology, I wouldn't ridicule you at all. I wouldn't be surprised at an disagreement and I certainly wouldn't waste my time explaining how broke you are since only God can fix it.
If you get flat tire, does telling the car it has flat make the flat go away? Shouldn't you be talking to GOD the mechanic to fix the issue?
steaver, I don't see it this way at all. I have been with my wife for 24 years. Do I know I love her? Yes. Do I know she loves me? Yes. Do we have a loving, committed relationship right now? Yes. What might happen in ten years, though? Could I drift away from her? Could I become completely selfish in my pursuits and no longer wish to be a part of her life? Well, yes. The possibility of future rupture does not indicate that we do not presently enjoy a loving marriage. And we're just two imperfect people. When it comes to God, I know He will remain faithful. The question, then, is "Will I?"
Yes, the Scriptures teach that we must be born again. And the Apostles taught it. And the Church Christ founded teaches that, too. Again, it is my belief (and it is entirely Scriptural) that a person could come to faith, receive Christ, and then desert Him. In other words, a Christian can lose his salvation. Recently Sovereign Alliance hosted a debate covering this very topic between Dr. James White and the young, up and coming Trent Horn. You might enjoy it. It's available on youtube.
Although I appreciate the sentiments here, I don't think that they add up to "the surety of the born-again believer's eternal life." For example, though you're presently united to Christ, such a reality does not render you incapable of some day turning against Him. And the idea that "it is finished" is, to me, not something which can be rightly stated until your earthly sojourn is truly over.
In Him,
Herbert
Really?
Ephesians 1:4-5
"Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,"
Romans 8:28-30
"And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."
Adonia, the Bible is very clear. Predestination is what God does as an act of love. If God did not do this then all would die in their sins and spend eternity in hell. Why? Because no one seeks after God. God must choose whom he wills.
Romans 3:10-17
10 As it is written:
“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good,
not even one.”
13 “Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.”
“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”
14 “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
17 and the way of peace they do not know.”
I guess you believe God had a wacko idea. [emoji33]
All you've done menno is say we don't believe God has a favorite color on account we don't agree with you that it is black.
Romans 3 Paul is quoting the old testament to show Israel has at times behaved far from perfect. Only our tardy uneducated and ignorant brethren would presume that applies to everyone on earth at all times.
If Paul is quoting the old testament, why don't you do it also to prove a universal total depravity?
Because if you read over what he is quoting there are points of praise given in psalms too and therefore you would have to praise mankind for all time.
The only proof Calvinism brings is that God has a sense of humor.
What a stupid laughable theology.
Yes. So what is the condition revealed in the text? Two types of people spoken of in this text. Those who "say we have no sin". These people are "deceived" it says. The "truth is not" in these people. Jesus Christ is the truth. These people have not been born of God, they could not be, for the truth is not in them.
Second type of person, We who "confess our sins". These have passed this particular test of having the truth in them, Jesus Christ, Christ in you.
The Apostles are always giving the reader test to examine themselves. The true Christian is to have certain attributes revealed throughout Scripture by the Apostles.
In the following passage Paul is having doubt about the Corinthian's salvation because of their behaviour...
"Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?" (2Co 13:5)
When Jesus Christ is in you, you will confess your sins. If ye say ye have no sin, Jesus Christ is not in you, you deceive yourself.
This "born-again" which is Christ in you, is not something that can come and go, it is a one time event. Once a person is born of God, they are sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption. (Eph 4:30)
Correct, If it does not abide it is revealed that it was not ever in the heart to begin with, but was an outward following only. We know this from supporting Scripture which tells us this...
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." (1Jo 2:19)
We should always use Scripture to interpret Scripture. This will keep us from getting off into errors whcih ultimately ends up contradicting the very Scripture.
Same situation. If you hold fast your faith is evidenced. If you do not, your faith was a "said" faith. James explains the man who says he has faith but does not have works.
Exactly. More examination for the professing believer. If you do not continue, John covered this...
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." (1Jo 2:19)
This specific passage is not speaking about true believers at all. The whole passage is speaking about "false prophets" . See the entire chapter (2Pt 2:1)
"For if....after they". "They" are the false prophets Peter speaks of.
For if these false prophets did escape the defilement's of the world through the knowledge of OUR Lord Jesus Christ (which they did not, it's a hypothetical), and then got entangled again, it would be worse for them than to have ever heard of Jesus Christ. For these false prophets took the glorious Gospel and used it for their own personal gain. These are not men who had been born of God and then became false prophets. These men were wolves in sheep's clothing from their beginning. "These are wells without water..." (vs 17) No Holy Spirit.
We must use Scripture to interpret Scripture. If we fail to do this we will end up believing erroneously.
Last edited:
What i did Adonia some 20 years ago now, was I examined my life according to the Scriptures and this is how I came to my conclusions. I was born-again as a young boy, age ten, but did not have any understanding of this or my salvation until God dealt with me while in a rebellious state of mind at age 34 and directed me to study His Word. When I began studying and I came across Jesus' words that "ye must be born-again" I took that as a pretty serious thing that I better find out exactly what that means because it is a MUST for salvation.
I suggest to you that being born-again according to the Scripture has some specific attributes which are given to ALL the same. While each individual person will have a different experience when they become born-again, each individual will have been given the same Holy Spirit and the Scripture reveals many attributes that will accompany all new creatures in Christ the same.
You should take the time to study what it means to be born-again using only the Scripture and prayer to the Holy Spirit to teach you. After you hear directly from God on this matter, then see if your Church lines up with what God has said.
Born again, born of God, regenerated, converted, Christ in you, Living water in you, Holy Spirit in you, one with Jesus, one with the Father, new heart, new creature, Kingdom is within you, etc. These are all phrases which deal directly with being born-again.
- Status