Love Alone Saves (Part 2)

[steaver]

I personally am getting tired of hearing that we all have to feel exactly the same and it you don't you are somehow "wrong" or "not saved". No one has lived my life but me (and you yours) and I look at everything on the basis of the experiences I have gone through - from my sinful life in the past - to the way I live it now.

It's not about "feelings" Adonia. Yes, each of us have our own walk and our own experiences with the Lord.

But we are not to base our beliefs upon our feelings. This debate here between us is the perfect example of what not to do.

You have set your beliefs according to your "feeling" that those who show love can reject Jesus Christ and still be A-ok with God. We are to align our beliefs with what God says and adjust our feelings accordingly.

Do you realize how detrimental your position is to your loved ones and friends? 1) If you do not understand that without receiving Christ in this lifetime a person, no matter how loving, is going to end up in hell, then you will not be burdened to witness to that person and beg them to call upon the Lord for the forgiveness of sin and for salvation. They will look at you one day on their way to the lake of fire and cry out to you WHY DIDN'T YOU SAY SOMETHING? DID YOU KNOW THIS WOULD HAPPEN TO ME AND YOU LET ME BELIEVE I WAS OK WITH GOD?

"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

"I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins"

This is the Truth Adonia! This is the Word of God! Don't let your friends and family die without having the chance to know this and the chance to call upon the Lord. Good deeds and loving thy neighbour will not save them!!!!

 

[steaver]

Well I think its pretty sad when YOU have to defend us from YOUR GOD, rather then have God defend us.

With this quote and all the other ones after, I have no idea what you are talking about so I really cannot reply. You are somewhere off in your mind way off the topic or anything that i said.

 

[steaver]

steaver, I don't see it this way at all. I have been with my wife for 24 years. Do I know I love her? Yes. Do I know she loves me? Yes. Do we have a loving, committed relationship right now? Yes. What might happen in ten years, though? Could I drift away from her? Could I become completely selfish in my pursuits and no longer wish to be a part of her life? Well, yes. The possibility of future rupture does not indicate that we do not presently enjoy a loving marriage. And we're just two imperfect people. When it comes to God, I know He will remain faithful. The question, then, is "Will I?"

Say you are not faithful, is she still your wife?

Say you get yourself a certificate of divorce from the state, is she still your wife according to God?

 

[steaver]

Yes, the Scriptures teach that we must be born again. And the Apostles taught it. And the Church Christ founded teaches that, too. Again, it is my belief (and it is entirely Scriptural) that a person could come to faith, receive Christ, and then desert Him. In other words, a Christian can lose his salvation.

You will not find any Scripture which supports such a thing. You must first know what the Scripture says about being born-again. Then you must interpret Scripture with Scripture and you will not find any Scripture which promotes a born of God Christian losing their eternal life standing with God.

 

[steaver]

Although I appreciate the sentiments here, I don't think that they add up to "the surety of the born-again believer's eternal life." For example, though you're presently united to Christ, such a reality does not render you incapable of some day turning against Him. And the idea that "it is finished" is, to me, not something which can be rightly stated until your earthly sojourn is truly over.

Then you have not studied out what it means to be born again.

How can one stop believing in that which they have a personal knowledge is an absolute truth?

"For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:" (Ro 8)

The Spirit did not just come along side of me Herbert. The Spirit transformed me, a new creature, the old is gone! The old that rejected God is gone! I have been given a gift, a new heart, one that does not reject God anymore. I may fall, I may doubt, I may get angry with God, but God is always in me, speaking to my spirit, comforting me, carrying me through my times of unbelief, my times of sin. Ever interceding on my behalf, never leaving nor forsaking me. I and God are one. I have been born of God!

"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh"

With all due respect, I really don't think you understand the rebirth and the God purposed consequences thereof. It is a marriage which cannot be undone nor would anyone being married to the perfect Love ever desire to for it to be undone. You are stuck on believing that there is something you can do that would make God say "I divorce you". This cannot happen, God always stays faithful, we do not, we waver! This is why it is said that Catholics think they are working their way to salvation. You say you are saved by grace through faith alone, but you do not live that way. You believe your own acts could debunk your salvation, that is not grace through faith alone.

 

[MennoSota]

All you've done menno is say we don't believe God has a favorite color on account we don't agree with you that it is black.


Romans 3 Paul is quoting the old testament to show Israel has at times behaved far from perfect. Only our tardy uneducated and ignorant brethren would presume that applies to everyone on earth at all times.

If Paul is quoting the old testament, why don't you do it also to prove a universal total depravity?

Because if you read over what he is quoting there are points of praise given in psalms too and therefore you would have to praise mankind for all time.

The only proof Calvinism brings is that God has a sense of humor.

What a stupid laughable theology.

The Bible teaches a universal depravity of the human spirit from the fall onward. Start reading in Genesis 3 and see the fall of mankind. The depravity is stark from Cain and Abel onward.

What I note is that you attempt to brush off Paul's comments in Romans 3 and completely ignore the passages where predestination is stated. Adonia was either ignorant or confused in proclaiming that predestination was created by Calvinists.
Even more so the Bible tells us that this is love! That God predestined those who would be saved.
Shocking how the Bible destroys the teachings of Rome isn't it.

 

[Yeshua1]

Is this true Herbert?

Do you have any official quote from Rome on this Yeshua?

The Church and non-Christians

839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ",328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329

840 And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330

842 The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:



All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331
ww.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm

 

[steaver]

The Church and non-Christians

839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ",328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329

840 And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330

842 The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:



All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331
ww.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm

Thanks! Yeah that pretty much shows the RCC is not preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[utilyan]

With this quote and all the other ones after, I have no idea what you are talking about so I really cannot reply. You are somewhere off in your mind way off the topic or anything that i said.

How could I be out of my mind if your the only christian here who is fully regenerated, Saint, one with christ, Once Saved always saved.

I think you just PRETEND to believe what you say you believe. But SINCERELY you haven't asked God over for morning coffee have you?

 

[Adonia]

What i did Adonia some 20 years ago now, was I examined my life according to the Scriptures and this is how I came to my conclusions. I was born-again as a young boy, age ten, but did not have any understanding of this or my salvation until God dealt with me while in a rebellious state of mind at age 34 and directed me to study His Word. When I began studying and I came across Jesus' words that "ye must be born-again" I took that as a pretty serious thing that I better find out exactly what that means because it is a MUST for salvation.

I suggest to you that being born-again according to the Scripture has some specific attributes which are given to ALL the same. While each individual person will have a different experience when they become born-again, each individual will have been given the same Holy Spirit and the Scripture reveals many attributes that will accompany all new creatures in Christ the same.

You should take the time to study what it means to be born-again using only the Scripture and prayer to the Holy Spirit to teach you. After you hear directly from God on this matter, then see if your Church lines up with what God has said.

Born again, born of God, regenerated, converted, Christ in you, Living water in you, Holy Spirit in you, one with Jesus, one with the Father, new heart, new creature, Kingdom is within you, etc. These are all phrases which deal directly with being born-again.

Yes steaver, I also had my "come to Jesus" moment in my life at 30 years of age. My soul was overflowing and my life was renewed with a new purpose, with Our Lord being now being a serious part of it.

And at that same time I returned to the church of my youth, sought reconciliation and have been a faithful adherent ever since. I am thankful for His wonderful church with it's beautiful liturgy and sacramental way of communion with God.

In my opinion, the Church's teachings line up perfectly with the Holy Scriptures, with the Mass being the foremost means of seeing the Holy Scriptures alive right in front of us. That is where I find Jesus Christ - His life, His death, and His resurrection, all expressed so beautifully in the teachings and the liturgical worship of the Holy Catholic Church.

 

[steaver]

How could I be out of my mind if your the only christian here who is fully regenerated, Saint, one with christ, Once Saved always saved.

I think you just PRETEND to believe what you say you believe. But SINCERELY you haven't asked God over for morning coffee have you?

And you continue making my point. Not sure anyone knows what you are talking about.

 

[steaver]

Yes steaver, I also had my "come to Jesus" moment in my life at 30 years of age. My soul was overflowing and my life was renewed with a new purpose, with Our Lord being now being a serious part of it.

And at that same time I returned to the church of my youth, sought reconciliation and have been a faithful adherent ever since. I am thankful for His wonderful church with it's beautiful liturgy and sacramental way of communion with God.

In my opinion, the Church's teachings line up perfectly with the Holy Scriptures, with the Mass being the foremost means of seeing the Holy Scriptures alive right in front of us. That is where I find Jesus Christ - His life, His death, and His resurrection, all expressed so beautifully in the teachings and the liturgical worship of the Holy Catholic Church.

I understand. In my experience I find all those things from within as the Holy Spirit leads me through life. There is not one day that goes by when the Spirit within me does not dwell on the life , death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. I experience this everyday. And getting together for corporate worship in song and praise, and the study of the Word is very satisfying indeed! Praise God!

With all due respect Adonia, when I see the bishop waving around a smoking pot it really does nothing for me. Can't find that in the bible anywhere.

 

[herbert]

With all due respect Adonia, when I see the bishop waving around a smoking pot it really does nothing for me. Can't find that in the bible anywhere.

steaver,

So many remarks here bring us back to what I have come to see as the most fundamental point deserving consideration. I so often see comments such as your "Can't find that in the bible anywhere." Well, what exactly is that supposed to prove? Neither have I found a verse in the Bible which says "Everything that a Christian should fervently believe must be explicitly laid out in the Holy Scriptures, which, by the way, consist of these 66 books."

As I said in a previous comment, I think of it this way: Imagine that instead of requiring that Christian doctrines be explicitly spelled out in Scripture, you only accept doctrines which are printed on pink paper. Imagine, too, that this law which you have come to live by is itself nowhere printed on pink paper... What are you to do? Will you acknowledge the fact that the Bible nowhere says something such as "All that a Christian is to believe must be explicitly presented in Scripture (which consists of these 66 books)"?

Also, about that "Can't find that in the bible anywhere," you'd better look more closely! ;-)

Revelation 5:8 has just such a thing... Elders (Presbyteroi) presenting bowls full of incense to God as an intercession on behalf of others...

In Him,

Herbert

 

[steaver]

Revelation 5:8 has just such a thing... Elders (Presbyteroi) presenting bowls full of incense to God as an intercession on behalf of others...

Is that why they do it?

 

[herbert]

Thanks! Yeah that pretty much shows the RCC is not preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ.

steaver,

This is another example of the type of comment which only holds if indeed you have a completely accurate conception of what the "Gospel of Jesus Christ" entails. In other words, your using your standards for what constitutes the Gospel as the measure by which you conclude that the Catholic Church is teaching a false gospel. But you standards and mine (and how we've come to identify them) are the very things under scrutiny here in this discussion. For I read those paragraphs from the Catechism and see them as entirely harmonious with the whole of Scripture.

In Him,

Herbert

 

[herbert]

Is that why they do it?

You said you can't find a bishop "waving" around a "smoking pot" in the Bible. I was just pointing out that the Bible does present such a thing. And why priests do what they do at Mass is certainly analagous to what the elders are doing in Revelation 5.

In Him,

Herbert

 

[steaver]

steaver,

This is another example of the type of comment which only holds if indeed you have a completely accurate conception of what the "Gospel of Jesus Christ" entails. In other words, your using your standards for what constitutes the Gospel as the measure by which you conclude that the Catholic Church is teaching a false gospel. But you standards and mine (and how we've come to identify them) are the very things under scrutiny here in this discussion. For I read those paragraphs from the Catechism and see them as entirely harmonious with the whole of Scripture.

In Him,

Herbert

You are exactly correct. This is why it is said that the RCC preaches another Gospel. And you would say I am preaching another Gospel or not the "full Gospel", which I reject that. The "full gospel" is rooted on this....

"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

Now if there be ANYTHING you want to declare is part of the "full Gospel" then it CANNOT contradict these words which Jesus Christ spoke. No belief in Jesus Christ equals the wrath of God remaining on those folks NO MATTER how much love they may be showing their neighbour or how much love they appear to have for a God.

This is our impasse!

 

[steaver]

You said you can't find a bishop "waving" around a "smoking pot" in the Bible. I was just pointing out that the Bible does present such a thing. And why priests do what they do at Mass is certainly analagous to what the elders are doing in Revelation 5.

In Him,

Herbert

Not sure you answered my question. Is this why they wave around the smoke?

 

[herbert]

Then you have not studied out what it means to be born again.

steaver,

Just because I don't reach your conclusions doesn't mean that I've "not studied out what it means to be born again."

How can one stop believing in that which they have a personal knowledge is an absolute truth?

A Mormon or Jehovah's Witness could say the same thing to a friend who's considering leaving the fellowship... Your appeal sounds good. But you're actually appealing to your own subjective judgment, something which is certainly fallible. You're doing this, however, by blurring the lines between your own conclusions and God's immutable nature.

More later!

In Him,

Herbert

 

[herbert]

Not sure you answered my question. Is this why they wave around the smoke?

steaver,

The use of incense among religious peoples is practically universal and certainly culturally and doctrinally multivalent. Do you really want to open that "can of worms"? If you do, maybe you should start another thread...

In Him,

Herbert