steaver,
A couple more things:
The alternative would be that the smoke actually is the prayers. Is that what you believe?
You are not in a position to accurately frame or interpret religious practices of other Christians
conclusively. You are not in a position to determine (or limit) the number of alternatives there are available here. For example, it is possible that the smoke of the incense, though it is in a sense distinct from the prayers being offered, is itself a prayer which appropriately accompanies the other prayers we offer to God. You certainly have impressions and ideas concerning what it is you see priests doing during a particular liturgy. But you're not in a position to dismiss or condemn their actions with any
finality. You just have an opinion. You expressed that opinion earlier when you said the following to Adonia: "With all due respect Adonia, when I see the bishop waving around a smoking pot it really does nothing for me."
Again, you don't have to choose to adopt Biblical practices in your worship services. But that doesn't mean that you're in a position to criticize those Christians who do. For whether or not a Christian liturgical practice "does" anything for you isn't what determines its meaning, purpose, or legitimacy.
To explore this thought a bit, let's look at what the word "prayer" means. Among the definitions I found with a quick Google search are the following:
1. a solemn request for help or
expression of thanks addressed to God or an object of worship (my emphasis)
2.
a religious service, especially a regular one, at which people gather in order to pray together. (my emphasis)
- As far as definition one indicates, actions such as burning incense can be understood as expressions of prayer as can various sacrifices one might make in hopes of achieving a greater good in their light. In this qualified sense, the incense which is offered at Mass can be understood as being a prayerful expression, a "prayer in action," as I heard one other describe it.
- Concerning definition two, "a religious service" itself may be understood as a prayer. That would, it seems, suggest that the various activities, songs, rites, and practices which occur in such a service can themselves be understood as unique and varied expressions of prayer.
Also, consider Revelation 8:3:
"Another angel came in holding a censer of gold. He took his place at the altar of incense and was given large amounts of incense to deposit on the altar of gold in front of the throne, together with the prayers of all God's holy ones. From the angel's hand, the smoke of the incense went up before God, and with it the prayers of God's people."
Notice how the incense in this verse is deposited "together with the prayers of all God's holy ones"? It could be said that the incense is a material accompaniment, then, to the spiritual requests of the holy ones. It is a real, material "expression of thanks"... It is a prayer, of sorts, in a qualified sense.
Great! Then you do understand this is Christ in you as one with you, a new creature, this cannot be undone, it is permanent. It is like this, your existence as a human being is the result of being born of the seed and egg of your father and mother. Your father's seed joining as one with your mother's egg creating a new creature which cannot be undone. Your existence as a spiritual being made alive in Christ, born of God, is a result of the Holy Spirit joining as one with your spirit creating a new creature which likewise cannot be undone. This is why Jesus calls it being "born of God" and uses the analogy of a "birth"
I am going to attempt to speak a little bit to what we recently identified as our most central point of disagreement (as far as this conversation is concerned). You look to this verse as a validation of your belief that one cannot lose his salvation:
"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
But to me, all of what you wrote above as well as the manner according to which you interpret John 3:18 seems to me to be based upon some faulty logic. It seems that you're grounding all of this upon a "non sequitur." In other words, the conclusion you've reached is not actually a consequence of the things you describe (or that verse). Christ may be in a person. A person may be forgiven and made new in Christ. We may experience life in Jesus. The Holy Spirit may come to indwell us. We may be "born of God." None of those things preclude the possibility of one losing his salvation through sin. Nothing about an experience of new life renders null any threats to that life which obtain according to the normal course of its being lived out. In the case of faith, what threatens our new life is not a physical threat, but a spiritual threat: sin. So as far as our spiritual well-being goes, in my opinion, Christ couldn't have been clearer than when He spoke to His own Disciples, saying: "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.
Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell."
And again, when speaking directly to His followers, concerning the "kingdom of heaven," Christ had this to say: "Therefore the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his servants When he began to settle, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. And since he could not pay, his master ordered him to be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and payment to be made.
So the servant fell on his knees, imploring him, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you everything.’ And out of pity for him, the master of that servant released him and forgave him the debt. But when that same servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii, and seizing him, he began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay what you owe.’ So his fellow servant fell down and pleaded with him, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you.’ He refused and went and put him in prison until he should pay the debt. When his fellow servants saw what had taken place, they were greatly distressed, and they went and reported to their master all that had taken place. Then his master summoned him and said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.And should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?’ And in anger his master delivered him to the jailers, until he should pay all his debt. So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.” (my emphasis)
With this parable in mind let's consider a few things:
Q: Who was the audience present as Christ taught this parable?
A: His Disciples. People who were actually following Him. Christ isn't just offering this teaching to a bunch of unsaved people, some reprobate crowd. He's teaching His own followers about the Kingdom. So the lessons present in the teaching apply to us, his followers (and the rest of the world, of course).
Q: What, in spiritual terms, would we liken to being "released" and "forgiven" of a debt we couldn't repay?
A: Coming to Christ. Receiving the unmerited favor of God's love through Christ.
Q: And like the servant, what do we do to receive God's grace?
A: We repent. We fall at His feet and accept His mercy (And as Christians we believe upon Him, receive Baptism, live according to His commandments...).
So what is, among other things, an essential lesson of this parable?:
- Just as the servant was forgiven and freed of his debt in the parable, so it is that according to the kingdom of heaven, we may be spiritually forgiven and freed in Christ.
- And just as the servant betrayed his master by not extending forgiveness to his debtor in the parable, so is it possible that, according to the kingdom of heaven, we can turn against God in sin.
As I see it, if we attempt to make Scripture to fit the theological systems of interpretation (systems like Calvinism, for example) which we've adopted (or inherited) instead of the other way around, we we find our theological systems demanding of us that we twist, turn, and manipulate the Scriptures so that we don't draw from them their most obvious, and apparent meanings.
In Him,
Herbert