Yep, I've seen it. He's a Universalist or something very close - and yet trying to hide it. The Bashir interview was great because he kept dancing and Bashir nailed his feet to the ground.
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Love wins
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Yep, I've seen it. He's a Universalist or something very close - and yet trying to hide it. The Bashir interview was great because he kept dancing and Bashir nailed his feet to the ground.
Oh boy Benjamin, you've really hit one of my pet peeves with these so-called quotes.
If we are going to have ANY integrity as Christians, we need to repent of these lies and accusations and deal with others in truth and honesty. Sadly though, I've learned over and over that truth is often not welcome among Christians, especially when it is not popular. It is much easier to not take a stand and shout "Barabbas" with the crowd.
Here's one of the classic misrepresentations of Rob Bell:
This quote was completely ripped out of the context of Bell describing how some people build their theology in such a way that a single bit of new information could devastate their faith. (What precedes this illustration is a man he heard on video who claimed that if one didn't believe that God created with universe in six 24-hours days, "then you are denying that Jesus that Jesus ever died on the cross."
Literally the seventh sentence after Benjamin's quote, Bell writes, "I affirm the Christian faith, which includes the virgin birth and the Trinity and the inspiration of the Bible and much more."-Velvet Elvis, p. 27
So this quote is being used dishonestly to portray Bell in a negative light. Now you may disagree with the point he is trying to make (which has nothing to do with the virgin birth), but no one has the right to portray him as rejecting the virgin birth.
I'm going to assume Benjamin found this quote online somewhere and let that person do the thinking for him instead of checking things out for himself.
This is just one example of why I have an inherent suspicion of the "discernment" websites all over the internet. For the last 25 years I have discovered that a shocking number of times when I check sources, I find that so-called Christians either have a fundamental problem with reading comprehension or they are simply making false accusations because they don't like someone.
Let's move on to the second incredibly dishonest quote.
What Benjamin (or the person he stole the quote from) doesn't tell you is that Bell has just told the story of Peter walking on water toward Jesus. In that context, the following quote reads very differently than the way it was presented. Furthermore, the quote makes ample use of ellipses to ensure that you don't understand the point that Bell is trying to make. You should refer back to Benjamin's original post if you want to see the stark difference. I have restored the missing parts in bold type:
I know these "quotes" are all over the internet, and frequently cited as if they are the gospel truth. But that is no excuse to simply repeat what you find.
Of course very few Christians have the integrity or concern for truth to actually check things out for themselves. And that's disgraceful for people who claim Jesus (One who declared Himself to be Truth) as their Lord!
If we are going to have ANY integrity as Christians, we need to repent of these lies and accusations and deal with others in truth and honesty. Sadly though, I've learned over and over that truth is often not welcome among Christians, especially when it is not popular. It is much easier to not take a stand and shout "Barabbas" with the crowd.
Here's one of the classic misrepresentations of Rob Bell:
This quote was completely ripped out of the context of Bell describing how some people build their theology in such a way that a single bit of new information could devastate their faith. (What precedes this illustration is a man he heard on video who claimed that if one didn't believe that God created with universe in six 24-hours days, "then you are denying that Jesus that Jesus ever died on the cross."
Literally the seventh sentence after Benjamin's quote, Bell writes, "I affirm the Christian faith, which includes the virgin birth and the Trinity and the inspiration of the Bible and much more."-Velvet Elvis, p. 27
So this quote is being used dishonestly to portray Bell in a negative light. Now you may disagree with the point he is trying to make (which has nothing to do with the virgin birth), but no one has the right to portray him as rejecting the virgin birth.
I'm going to assume Benjamin found this quote online somewhere and let that person do the thinking for him instead of checking things out for himself.
This is just one example of why I have an inherent suspicion of the "discernment" websites all over the internet. For the last 25 years I have discovered that a shocking number of times when I check sources, I find that so-called Christians either have a fundamental problem with reading comprehension or they are simply making false accusations because they don't like someone.
Let's move on to the second incredibly dishonest quote.
What Benjamin (or the person he stole the quote from) doesn't tell you is that Bell has just told the story of Peter walking on water toward Jesus. In that context, the following quote reads very differently than the way it was presented. Furthermore, the quote makes ample use of ellipses to ensure that you don't understand the point that Bell is trying to make. You should refer back to Benjamin's original post if you want to see the stark difference. I have restored the missing parts in bold type:
I know these "quotes" are all over the internet, and frequently cited as if they are the gospel truth. But that is no excuse to simply repeat what you find.
Of course very few Christians have the integrity or concern for truth to actually check things out for themselves. And that's disgraceful for people who claim Jesus (One who declared Himself to be Truth) as their Lord!
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All the more reason the SBC needs to cut ties with Lifeway.
Do you know the history behind lifeway?
Baptist Believer,
You really need to watch your mouth questioning my integrity and suggesting I am not wanting the truth! First, I have been searching for information about Bell since I heard other's talking about his new book and seen his video which I find appalling, I've seen those quotes in several places WITH the page numbers and had no reason to doubt any part of them. Second, concerning the context I still don't like want Bell has to say regardless of some of the context being left out and believe he talks out of both sides of his mouth while basically denying what he just said. I DON"T expect someone to quote a whole page but to to show what the man is preaching. SO WHAT IF HE FINISHES WITH A SHORT LINE SAYING HE CONFIRMS THE CHRISTIAN FAITH WHICH INCLUDES THE VIRGIN BIRTH, HE JUST GOT DONE CASTING NOTHING BUT DOUBT ON IT!!! Third, I heard the video with my own ears; DO YOU NOT SEEEEE THE MO THIS MAN USES...HE FINISHES HIS HERETICAL SONGS AND DANCES WITH DENYING WHAT HE JUST SAID!!! MANY credible theologians are on to his new age Universalist suggestions and also that he denies it with empty words!
You ticked me off buddy with those empty accusations, but I expect nothing else from someone able to hide behind a key board like a coward to act that way instead of asking me if I even knew some of the context was removed.
BTW BB, what does "..." mean to you?! Look at the quote again and make your false claim about dishonesty in leaving out context!
You really need to watch your mouth questioning my integrity and suggesting I am not wanting the truth! First, I have been searching for information about Bell since I heard other's talking about his new book and seen his video which I find appalling, I've seen those quotes in several places WITH the page numbers and had no reason to doubt any part of them. Second, concerning the context I still don't like want Bell has to say regardless of some of the context being left out and believe he talks out of both sides of his mouth while basically denying what he just said. I DON"T expect someone to quote a whole page but to to show what the man is preaching. SO WHAT IF HE FINISHES WITH A SHORT LINE SAYING HE CONFIRMS THE CHRISTIAN FAITH WHICH INCLUDES THE VIRGIN BIRTH, HE JUST GOT DONE CASTING NOTHING BUT DOUBT ON IT!!! Third, I heard the video with my own ears; DO YOU NOT SEEEEE THE MO THIS MAN USES...HE FINISHES HIS HERETICAL SONGS AND DANCES WITH DENYING WHAT HE JUST SAID!!! MANY credible theologians are on to his new age Universalist suggestions and also that he denies it with empty words!
You ticked me off buddy with those empty accusations, but I expect nothing else from someone able to hide behind a key board like a coward to act that way instead of asking me if I even knew some of the context was removed.
BTW BB, what does "..." mean to you?! Look at the quote again and make your false claim about dishonesty in leaving out context!
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Uh, Lifeway is the the SBC. Combined with the previous misquotes of Bell, I see misinformation leading to firm opinions are in abundance here. I haven't read the book but here is someone who has
http://rogereolson.com/2011/03/25/the-promised-response-to-bells-love-wins/
Might prove helpful, but I'm not holding my breath.
http://rogereolson.com/2011/03/25/the-promised-response-to-bells-love-wins/
Might prove helpful, but I'm not holding my breath.
Please note that I said you probably lifted the quotes from someone else.
I apologize for coming off a bit strong, but this is a very serious issue of making false charges against a brother in Christ.
I believe you. However, as several of us have pointed out in previous posts, Bell is often vilified based on inaccurate/dishonest reporting regarding his writings.
How do you know whether or not you like what he has to say if you don't read Bell in context? You're simply relying on other people to do your thinking for you.
But you really don't know. You haven't read it for yourself. He's not really dealing with the virgin birth at all. He's making another point.
No he didn't. I didn't quote the whole section, but you can probably find the whole section online. If you like, I can quote the section in question so you could read it in context, but I don't think there would be any end of quoting and we would start getting into a questionable area of copyright infringement.
I'm waiting to read his book and then watch the video. The issue in question is not his video, but what you quoted.
Hardly empty accusations... I documented the issues.
Not a coward either.
I explicitly stated:
I'm going to assume Benjamin found this quote online somewhere and let that person do the thinking for him instead of checking things out for himself.
And that's exactly what happened.
Whether or not you and I agree with Mr. Bell is irrelevant to our duty to speak the truth and not make charges against people without being certain they are true.
No, but I'd like to. What is it?
It used to be the Sunday school board. Its scope and purpose as evolved over the years to what it is now. It is not going anywhere anytime fast.
Yes, I knew that. I lived in Nashville 31 years. I thought you meant there was something sinister in their past. :tongue3:
No..it was suggested that the convention needed to separate from lifeway. Its not going to happen.
They surely sell some questionable stuff these days. I used to go the Board in downtown Nashville on my lunch break and I could trust the products they sold. That was important for a young Christian. Now you'd better have good discernment before you make a purchase there.
I don't disagree
Couple of thoughts from this thread...
1. From what I've read and seen in the text Bell has presented it does have some redeeming qualities. His discussions about the nature of Heaven are helpful from a pastoral level. This book isn't written to be a scholarly piece, but more of an exploration of major questions people in his (and my) ministry legitimately have. I can appreciate some parts of the book.
2. Bell isn't a universalist. That much is clear imho. He lies in a kind of soft inclusivism, the belief that while Jesus is the means whereby people are given atonement for their sins though some will end up in Heaven though they followed a different religion. I'm not an inclusivist or universalist. Bell does believe in a Hell, and that real people end up there. His view of Hell is, for some, a purgatory view than an eternal or even annihilationist view. (Though I think he is also an annihilationist after the Great White Throne Judgment.)
3. It is a cheap shot to say that his theology is the end result of any exploration of a theological system that is different than reformed theology.
4. We need to read and type quotes in their full context. Bell affirms many things, on this one I think he's wrong. But I also think his position is what a lot of people in our pews and chairs on Sunday hold to, albeit tacitly.
1. From what I've read and seen in the text Bell has presented it does have some redeeming qualities. His discussions about the nature of Heaven are helpful from a pastoral level. This book isn't written to be a scholarly piece, but more of an exploration of major questions people in his (and my) ministry legitimately have. I can appreciate some parts of the book.
2. Bell isn't a universalist. That much is clear imho. He lies in a kind of soft inclusivism, the belief that while Jesus is the means whereby people are given atonement for their sins though some will end up in Heaven though they followed a different religion. I'm not an inclusivist or universalist. Bell does believe in a Hell, and that real people end up there. His view of Hell is, for some, a purgatory view than an eternal or even annihilationist view. (Though I think he is also an annihilationist after the Great White Throne Judgment.)
3. It is a cheap shot to say that his theology is the end result of any exploration of a theological system that is different than reformed theology.
4. We need to read and type quotes in their full context. Bell affirms many things, on this one I think he's wrong. But I also think his position is what a lot of people in our pews and chairs on Sunday hold to, albeit tacitly.
This author much like the author of the book called "The Shack" have credibility problems. They make short declarations that are in direct conflict with much of their books. They both use vague and unclear means to project questions that lead ideas toward unscriptural positions.
As far as "Love Wins" goes the publisher made clear Bell's intent.
As far as "Love Wins" goes the publisher made clear Bell's intent.
Alive in Christ
New Member
Gosh, I wish I could read minds and discern motives. :tonofbricks:
Alive in Christ
New Member
Regarding Bell, and his theology, I tend to give people the benefit of the dought as long as I can, untill I just cant anymore.
Bells flippant attitude regarding people considering Ghandi to be in hell (in the liked video) certainly doesnt help his standing in my mind.
Of course, we cant *defintively* declare Ghandi as being in hell, as the possibility exists that Ghandi placed his faith in Christ moments before he died.
But I think its reasonable to assume that Ghandi more then likely did not do that.
And if that is true...and it probably is...Ghandi is indeed in hell.
And Bell should know that, and be willing to acknowledge that as probably being true.
Bells flippant attitude regarding people considering Ghandi to be in hell (in the liked video) certainly doesnt help his standing in my mind.
Of course, we cant *defintively* declare Ghandi as being in hell, as the possibility exists that Ghandi placed his faith in Christ moments before he died.
But I think its reasonable to assume that Ghandi more then likely did not do that.
And if that is true...and it probably is...Ghandi is indeed in hell.
And Bell should know that, and be willing to acknowledge that as probably being true.
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Used to be Baptist Book Store, now extremely liberal and no discernment in the books they carry.
glfredrick
New Member
This sort of comment really has no purpose, and crosses the scriptural line toward gossip and slander. It is patently obvious that you have an ax to grind with someone.
I know, personally, many of the leaders of LifeWay, and they are good men who care deeply for the things of God. They are working hard to bring a wide range of products to the marketplace that do not reflect any ONE perspective. To do otherwise is to make a judgment about every other book, a task best left to the individual reader.
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