luke 18:16

[annsni]

I'LL stick with the Bible that doesn't allow anyone to misunderstand. THE KJV tells us the kingdom is made up of children, the NIV says it belongs to children

Says one who doesn't understand Scripture apparently.

Sad.

 

[AntennaFarmer]

...

It is the same thing. One is older style wording; one is modern

"Of such" is translated as a genitive of possession and we'd say "belongs to" today (showing they possess it). Is does not mean "is comprised of" or "made up of" - totally different wording had God inspired that. God used the correct word.

Of couse, modern translations DO say "belongs to". You should read one to help you understand archaic wording of the AV . . .

To use the modern version to interpret the KJV is to invite an anachronism. It seems clear to me that the various versions do not always translate passages in the same way. So we cannot always determine the meaning of one translation by another. In fact, to do so would negate the (oft stated) advantage of comparing versions.

A.F.

 

[Harold Garvey]

Just a few observations:

1. This rendering is certainly not new. Both John Gill and John Wesley agreed with it.

2. The first translation that I can readily find (though my research certainly is not exhaustive) with the modern rendering is the American Bible Union revision of the KJV in 1865. (That's the "Baptist" version, which substituted immersed for baptized.)

3. Your objection that "The NIV is giving the impression of coequal ownership" seems weak. I don't not suppose you are willing to throw out "Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven" and "Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven" on the same grounds or to excise passages such as "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God......

I don't disagree with the Bible at all, but the NIV taken alone without comparing it to other versions G Ives the wrong impression

 

[rsr]

I don't understand how the impression is wrong. In Matthew Jesus says that the kingdom of heaven is theirs (referring to the poor in spirit and those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake). Does that not mean that the kingdom belongs to them? If not, what did Jesus mean?

 

[Harold Garvey]

I belong to the kingdom and I am a part of it. Thanks to Jesus I belong in God's Kingdom, but I find it hard to say it belongs to me when it's God's Kingdom.

 

[annsni]

I belong to the kingdom and I am a part of it. Thanks to Jesus I belong in God's Kingdom, but I find it hard to say it belongs to me when it's God's Kingdom.

James 2:5 "Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?"

 

[Harold Garvey]

The point is when the verse is without other related verses in the KJV there's no room for thinking anything other than the kingdom consists of those belonging there, but I can't say the same about the verse alone in the NIV

 

[annsni]

The point is when the verse is without other related verses in the KJV there's no room for thinking anything other than the kingdom consists of those belonging there, but I can't say the same about the verse alone in the NIV

Sorry you can't understand what is clearly stated in the text.

 

[Mexdeaf]

Ok, my camaro is of such of Harold's but I know who it belongs to. Amazing how the scholars have to explain something so relatively simple and call it archaic. The kingdom belongs to God and is made up of believers. If you say I am wrong then lay aside the bent sword of babble and show me

Harold has a Camaro!! Worldling!!!


:laugh:

 

[Harold Garvey]

Sorry you can't understand what is clearly stated in the text.

We're discussing the text, not my ability or inability to understand the text. Let the truth be known, if one hadn't known the text before and were left To a literal interpretation of the NIV, which is supposed to be THE literal interpretation, they'd be faced with having to research it out to understand this verse in it. I understand the verse, and I understood it long before even hearing of the NIV.

 

[Forever settled in heaven]

I'LL stick with the Bible that doesn't allow anyone to misunderstand. THE KJV tells us the kingdom is made up of children, the NIV says it belongs to children

But when was one's kneejerk understanding ever a criterion for Bible version choice or validity?

If the shoe were on the other foot, won't u KJBOs suggest that one's gotta be more spiritual to comprehend things that are divine, or somesuch? :laugh:

Hmm, how come I seem to know all the KJBOist doublestandards? :sleep:

 

[Harold Garvey]

James 2:5 "Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?"

TURNING to the KJV to explain the NIV!!! Who could ask for a better example or source for clarity?

 

[annsni]

TURNING to the KJV to explain the NIV!!! Who could ask for a better example or source for clarity?

See, I quote the KJV in deference to you, Harold. I do that sort of thing. While I am most certainly not KJVO or even use the KJV often myself, I will use it when arguing with those who are KJVO to make a point.

But if you'd like it in another version, here you go:

NIV: Listen, my dear brothers: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him?

ESV: Listen, my beloved brothers, has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he has promised to those who love him?

NASB: Listen, my beloved brethren: did not God choose the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?


So in whatever version you read, it says the same thing.

You said:

I belong to the kingdom and I am a part of it. Thanks to Jesus I belong in God's Kingdom, but I find it hard to say it belongs to me when it's God's Kingdom.

So you say that the kingdom does not belong to you but James clearly tells us that we are heirs of the kingdom. It DOES belong to us because of the fact that we are sons and daughters of God and will inherit all that He's promised to us. I guess maybe the KJV isn't very clear to you in this regard although it says the same thing ANY version says. The kingdom of God is ours.

 

[Trotter]

Instead of ripping one verse from its context, try actually looking at what else is there. When you take verse 17 along with verse 16, the meaning it crystal clear.

People were also bringing babies to Jesus to have him touch them. When the disciples saw this, they rebuked them. But Jesus called the children to him and said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it."
(Luk 18:15-17 NIV)

And they brought unto him also infants, that he would touch them: but when his disciples saw it, they rebuked them. But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.
(Luk 18:15-17 KJV)

Proof-texting to try to prove a point doesn't score points with anyone.

 

[annsni]

Instead of ripping one verse from its context, try actually looking at what else is there. When you take verse 17 along with verse 16, the meaning it crystal clear.

People were also bringing babies to Jesus to have him touch them. When the disciples saw this, they rebuked them. But Jesus called the children to him and said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it."
(Luk 18:15-17 NIV)

And they brought unto him also infants, that he would touch them: but when his disciples saw it, they rebuked them. But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.
(Luk 18:15-17 KJV)

Proof-texting to try to prove a point doesn't score points with anyone.

But isn't every verse supposed to be taken as a stand-alone? I mean, Luke himself made sure that each verse was clearly delineated, didn't he?

 

[Trotter]

I needed a good laugh this morning, Ann. Much appreciated.

 

[Johnv]

Seems the term "belongs" means something different Than what some admit. The KJV is attacked by those who can't comprehend the word "suffer" by saying it gives the indication of pain.

An common KJVOist hypicrosy: Criticize the use of a word in the KJV, and it's an attack. Criticize the use of a word in any other translation, and it's okay.

What does the koine Greek say? It says
gar toioutwn estin h basileia tou qeou

Which here means, "for the kingdom of God belongs to such".

I understand the verse, and I understood it long before even hearing of the NIV.

It's interesting that HG compains about people not understanding the word "suffer" yet he doesn't understand that phrase "of such is". In Middle English, "of such is" contextually meant the same thing as "belongs to" today.

HG, you're 0 for 2, "meat offering" being the first, and this being the second.

 

[Harold Garvey]

Ann, the poor in spirit, not the poor of this world. The rich can't be rich in faith? LOL those who come to Christ as a trusting little child, spiritually, make up God's Kingdom and therefore have a position in Christ. The doctrine is positional adherence, not posessive aquisition. NIV term is a poor choice

 

[Johnv]

NIV term is a poor choice

The koine greek disagrees with you, as does Middle English. The context of the English rendering in the KJV was indeed belonging. The meaning of the Middle ENglish has changed when the language evolced to Modern English.

The KJV/Bishop's rendering was contextually accurate in its day. It is no longer accurate today. When you say the context of belonging is wrong, then you're actually claiming the KJV authors erred.

 

[annsni]

Ann, the poor in spirit, not the poor of this world. The rich can't be rich in faith? LOL those who come to Christ as a trusting little child, spiritually, make up God's Kingdom and therefore have a position in Christ. The doctrine is positional adherence, not posessive aquisition. NIV term is a poor choice

I'm sorry but the text disagrees with you.