Make believe Eschatology

[37818]

. . . "the sign of the Son of Man will appear". Jesus did not say that He Himself would appear at that time, but His sign would appear.

". . . the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven . . . ." In our translation, in plain English, "they shall see."

 

[robycop3]

Hmm .... I have sought the Holy Spirit’s guidance on this and I simply do not agree. 1947 is part of the prophesy regarding the regathering of Israel. I mean that was literally a world-wide event we’re going to disregard and instead claim the 70AD destruction of Jerusalem was it?

Again, I ask, what has been happening the last 1900 years, then?

Does God have a timeline? Does He want us to learn it?

Did God place the stars in their position? Does He want us to use them to mark sign & (or) season?

I can agree that discerning the symbolic from the literal is the key, but I think this is where the Proverbs 25 “glory to God in concealing a matter ... glory of kings to seek it” is. Relevant.

The next events were the land of Judah becoming a terror to the Egyptians, then, Israel's making Jerusalem their capital again.

 

[37818]

No. There is only one first resurrection, John 6:44, Revelation 20:6, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, 1 Corinthians 15:52. And only one the last trumpet, Matthew 24:29-31.

There'll be the rapture; later, the trib saints that'll be martyred.

According to 1 Thessalonians 4:15 there will be in no way a rapture prior to the resurrection of the dead in Christ. The first resurrection are tribulation saints per Revelation 20:4-6. And there is only one the last trumpet, 1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and Matthew 24:31.

One can either be a post-trib or perterist.

 

[1689Dave]

The sensationalism of dispensationalism!

Phony as a Ford Corvette but very addictive to the carnal mind.

It is a cult in my book, having been in a cult that taught it.

 

[37818]

How does a Baptist believe Dan 9:25 is history as of 70AD?

I am not sure I understand the question.
Danial 9:25-26, ". . . Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. . . ."

I understand it is a propphecy that after the Messiah had died, the rebuilt Temple will be destoryed. And that distruction of the rebuilt temple did happend in 70AD as an evidence that the Messiah had actually alread came. And we know Him to be our Lord Jesus Christ.

Attempts have been made to use it to the calculate the year of the crucifixion. But none of those proposed calculations that I have seen or done give 30AD as the year.

Now there are other matters to this prophecy too.

 

[Two Wings]

I am not sure I understand the question.

Well, sorry, if I had given the correct reference ... Daniel 9:24

“....
to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy
place”

If this doesn’t describe The Lord’s Day ... or The Day of The Lord ...

So according to these preterists (?) ... this 6-descriptor event happened with the destruction of the 2nd Temple in 70 AD? So there’s no more sin post 70AD?

Everlasting righteousness was ushered-in with this 70 AD event?

The visions/prophesy is sealed-up??? ... and the holy place anointed?

What does it describe? Jesus’ Second Coming is prophesied, yes?

Then clearly this preterists view is flawed at its core ...and hence I do not understand how anyone who calls themselves a baptist can hold this view.

Again, I apologize for my citation error.

 

[George Antonios]

Still looking along with the Pharisees for their physical Millennial kingdom of the future.

Show where they were wrong about this (by the way the apostles expected it also and were never corrected).
I know the verses. Let's see if you list them all, not just the ones where the Lord speaks of the spiritual nature of the kingdom to mess up the unrepentant Pharisees -
as if pointing out the spiritual aspect of the kingdom cancels out its physical aspect.

 

[1689Dave]

If you do a google search, you will find the Jesuits solidly connected to Dispensationalism and Preterism. They deceived Protestants including Darby, Scofield, and others with these schemes. They gave birth to both Preterism and Futurism.

 

[George Antonios]

Pre, mid and post trib, two or all cannot be true. One is true the others are make believe.

Pre-tribulation is true for the church.
Mid-tribulation is true for the tribulation saints.
There is more than 1 rapture.

 

[1689Dave]

I am not sure I understand the question.
Danial 9:25-26, ". . . Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. . . ."

I understand it is a propphecy that after the Messiah had died, the rebuilt Temple will be destoryed. And that distruction of the rebuilt temple did happend in 70AD as an evidence that the Messiah had actually alread came. And we know Him to be our Lord Jesus Christ.

Attempts have been made to use it to the calculate the year of the crucifixion. But none of those proposed calculations that I have seen or done give 30AD as the year.

Now there are other matters to this prophecy too.

Things were set into motion during the 70 weeks and came about just as predicted. The problem is when the Kingdom arrived only the born-again could discern it. So the rest joined with the Pharisees looking for their physical kingdom instead. The early church condemned Premillennialism as heresy in 431.

 

[George Antonios]

If you do a google search, you will find the Jesuits solidly connected to Dispensationalism and Preterism. They deceived Protestants including Darby, Scofield, and others with these schemes. They gave birth to both Preterism and Futurism.

I received a classical education at the hands of a Jesuit school which was listed as #1 in Quebec, including 3 years of Latin.
I was born in a Roman Catholic denomination in Lebanon that was militant.
I could quote parts of the mass in Greek by memory.
And yet I was debated for years by the priests who have no concept of dispensationalism and who are, like their whorish mother church, amillennialists. The reformists never went too far away from momma Rome.
So, in plain English, give me a break about Google.
That's the Jesuits making you think they came up with dispensationalism so you can reject it.

 

[tyndale1946]

I received a classical education at the hands of a Jesuit school which was listed as #1 in Quebec, including 3 years of Latin.
I was born in a Roman Catholic denomination in Lebanon that was militant.
I could quote parts of the mass in Greek by memory.
And yet I was debated for years by the priests who have no concept of dispensationalism and who are, like their whorish mother church, amillennialists. The reformists never went too far away from momma Rome.
So, in plain English, give me a break about Google.
That's the Jesuits making you think they came up with dispensationalism so you can reject it.

That's why I don't listen to Jesuits George... To me personally there are only two dispensations in scripture, when you come right down to it... Brother Glen

John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

 

[Two Wings]

There is more than 1 rapture.

Hello George ...

I have never had this understanding.

The Church gets called home ONCE. One wedding ... not multiples.

Can you provide references which substantiate this idea of multiple raptures/harpezos Thanks

 

[Two Wings]

Sorry ... meant to add ...

I see the discussion of the single event church rapture being pre-tribulation, mid ... or post ...

but not possible all three.

I’ve recently changed my understanding from pre-trib/immanent Second Coming ... to Post Trib/pre-wrath of teh The Lamb ... appointed Second Coming.

 

[Iconoclast]

Really? Then Jesus' second appearing as proclaimed is in the past too. What we have then is full perterism.

You continue to ignore what has been presented to you it wasn't a physical 2nd coming of Jesus to the Earth in Matthew 24 It was rather a coming in judgment

 

[Iconoclast]

How does a Baptist believe Dan 9:25 is history as of 70AD?

Daniel 924 to 27 was fulfilled in the 1st century as Jesus was cut off in the midst of the week 3 and a 1/2 years into his earthly ministry and that is the fulfillment of Daniel 9:24 - 27

 

[George Antonios]

The Church gets called home ONCE. One wedding ... not multiples.

Of course, agreed.
But the rapture of tribulation saints is not that of the church, that's why I was careful in my wording.
The church body is made up of believers between Acts 2 and the rapture - not before nor after.
That's why at the marriage, there's the bride (the church) but also guests, virgins, queens, etc.
I must attend business now and could answer with verses later but for now, just consider all the verses that do teach pre-trib and all the verses that do teach mid trib. There's the basis of your answer. And there are indeed verses on either side, hence the controversy.

 

[Two Wings]

You continue to ignore what has been presented to you it wasn't a physical 2nd coming of Jesus to the Earth in Matthew 24 It was rather a coming in judgment

I’ve read Matthew 24 many times.

When the angel told the disciples Jesus would return as they saw Him leave ... that’s a physical presence.

1 Thess 4:16-17 is very clear this is a physical event.

The earth being split with Jesus’ landing on the Mt of Olives prior to entering the Temple (3rd Temple) ... is a physical event ...

Every bit as much as Jesus’ fulfilling prophesy about entering Jerusalem on a donkey over a bunch of palm leaves ... e.g. Palm Sunday.

Judgement Day is coming and it’s not a Sarah Conner Terminator deal ... though I can CERTAINLY see a nuclear exchange as part of the devastation.

 

[Two Wings]

Daniel 924 to 27 was fulfilled in the 1st century as Jesus was cut off in the midst of the week 3 and a 1/2 years into his earthly ministry and that is the fulfillment of Daniel 9:24 - 27

Huh? The sacrifice continued for another 40 years after Christ was “cut off.”

The end of sin was not realized in 70 AD. Nor was everlasting righteousness established in 70AD

 

[Two Wings]

Of course, agreed.
But the rapture of tribulation saints is not that of the church, that's why I was careful in my wording.
The church body is made up of believers between Acts 2 and the rapture - not before nor after.
That's why at the marriage, there's the bride (the church) but also guests, virgins, queens, etc.
I must attend business now and could answer with verses later but for now, just consider all the verses that do teach pre-trib and all the verses that do teach mid trib. There's the basis of your answer. And there are indeed verses on either side, hence the controversy.

Thanks ... I’ll try to keep up here on the inter webs.

But one of the teachings Jesus gave which changed my mind, and I like to think with the guide of the Holy Spirit while reading The Word ...

The parable of the wheat and tares. If the church is raptured home before the revealing of the antichrist in the tribulation, then there is a long (7 year?) period between the gathering of the tares and the harvest of the wheat. that doesn’t make any sense to me.

I’m “pretty sure” Jesus wouldn’t use just part of the illustration in His parable. “This works IAW common knowledge of X ... but not this part, disregard this part”