Man is unable to choose spiritual life (salvation) on his own!

[Winman]

But, someone here claims that man is born w/o a sin nature.
So, tanks anyway, I'll stay.
.

Show me scripture that says man is born with a sin nature.

I can show you scripture that says Jesus took on the nature of the seed of Abraham (born after the fall). I can show you scripture that says Jesus was made like unto his brethren in ALL THINGS, that he was tempted in all points as we are, yet without sin.

I can show you scripture that says Jesus was MADE of the SEED of David according to the FLESH.

Now you show me scripture that says a man is born with a sin nature.

 

[DHK]

Let's see it.

I can show you scripture that says God made men upright, will YOU believe it?

Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

The word "they" points back to the word "man" and shows this verse is speaking of all men, not just Adam.

OK, I have shown you a verse that says God has made all men upright. Do you believe it?

And I can show you more scripture that supports that man is not born dead in sin. In fact, I have shown it many times and you know it.

Who is it that does not believe scripture??

You should know better than to use this verse?
Do you know what the context is, and why Solomon is saying this?
Do you really believe that God has created all men upright?
You are ignoring context.

 

[Winman]

You should know better than to use this verse?
Do you know what the context is, and why Solomon is saying this?
Do you really believe that God has created all men upright?
You are ignoring context.

Baloney, Solomon is making a general statement about all men, I am not twisting it whatsoever.

It is you that should know better than to deny God's word. Shame on YOU!

 

[DHK]

Show me scripture that says man is born with a sin nature.

I can show you scripture that says Jesus took on the nature of the seed of Abraham (born after the fall). I can show you scripture that says Jesus was made like unto his brethren in ALL THINGS, that he was tempted in all points as we are, yet without sin.

I can show you scripture that says Jesus was MADE of the SEED of David according to the FLESH.

Now you show me scripture that says a man is born with a sin nature.

Jeremiah 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

The Ethiopian cannot change his skin color, the nature that he was born with.
The leopard cannot change his hide color; the nature that he was born with.
Man cannot do good naturally; the nature that he was born with, and that is precisely why he is accustomed to doing evil. The last statement is a conclusion drawn from the others--that indeed he does have a sin nature.

It is irrefutable. You will try and twist the teaching of this verse, but if your honest with its teaching you will have to admit that Jeremiah, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, teaches that all mankind is born with a sin nature. He cannot do good.

 

[DHK]

Baloney, Solomon is making a general statement about all men, I am not twisting it whatsoever.

It is you that should know better than to deny God's word. Shame on YOU!

Learn God's Word Winman! This book is used more often by cults than any other book in the Bible, and it is because context is not taken into consideration. The same is true with James chapter two.

The context here: The key verse: Vanity of vanities saith the preacher; all is vanity.
Solomon, the wisest man that ever lived, apart from Christ, explores every facet of life and concludes that without God all is vanity. He looks at life from the point of view of a secular philosopher.
He searches out life in wealth, but all is vanity. He does not find satisfaction in wealth.
He searches out life in merriment, but all is vanity. He does not find satisfaction in merriment.
What is he doing in chapter 7 from where you quoted:

Ecclesiastes 7:25 I applied mine heart to know, and to search, and to seek out wisdom, and the reason of things, and to know the wickedness of folly, even of foolishness and madness:
--He is searching out knowledge and wisdom.
The secular philosopher in his knowledge and wisdom thinks that God makes man righteous, but the Godly man knows that isn't true. You have to read the whole book, and come to the end, the last chapter before you read his conclusion. Otherwise it is: vanity of vanities, all is vanity. God doesn't make man righteous.

There is none righteous no not one.
There is none that doeth good.

The Bible doesn't contradict itself, but you ignore the context of this book and make it contradict itself.

 

[Winman]

Jeremiah 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

The Ethiopian cannot change his skin color, the nature that he was born with.
The leopard cannot change his hide color; the nature that he was born with.
Man cannot do good naturally; the nature that he was born with, and that is precisely why he is accustomed to doing evil. The last statement is a conclusion drawn from the others--that indeed he does have a sin nature.

It is irrefutable. You will try and twist the teaching of this verse, but if your honest with its teaching you will have to admit that Jeremiah, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, teaches that all mankind is born with a sin nature. He cannot do good.

This is actually the very best verse in all of scripture to argue that we are born with a sin nature because a leopard indeed is born with spots, but that is not what the verse is saying, it says that we are "accustomed" to sin.

Jer 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

The word "accustomed" means a LEARNED BEHAVIOR. Accustomed in the scriptures is limmuwd which is defined as;

1) taught, learned, discipled
a) taught
b) accustomed to (something)

It is like drinking or smoking. Most people do not like to drink alcohol at first, but with practice they become accustomed to it and it becomes second nature. It is the same with smoking, most people choke and cough when they first smoke because it is not natural. But if they continue to practice smoking they become accustomed to it and it becomes second nature.

Jeremiah 13:23 is figurative language. It is saying that the Jews were so accustomed to sinning that it had become second nature to them, as though they were born that way.

Matthew Henry

2. It is for their obstinacy in sin, their being so long accustomed to it that there was little hope left of their being reclaimed from it (v. 23): Can the Ethiopian change his skin, that is by nature black, or the leopard his spots, that are even woven into the skin? Dirt contracted may be washed off, but we cannot alter the natural colour of a hair (Mt. 5:36 ), much less of the skin; and so impossible is it, morally impossible, to reclaim and reform these people. (1.) They had been long accustomed to do evil. They were taught to do evil; they had been educated and brought up in sin; they had served an apprenticeship to it, and had all their days made a trade of it. It was so much their constant practice that it had become a second nature to them. (2.) Their prophets therefore despaired of ever bring them to do good. This was what they aimed at; they persuaded them to cease to do evil and learn to do well, but could not prevail. They had so long been used to do evil that it was next to impossible for them to repent, and amend, and begin to do good. Note, Custom in sin is a very great hindrance to conversion from sin. The disease that is inveterate is generally thought incurable. Those that have been long accustomed to sin have shaken off the restraint of fear and shame; their consciences are seared; the habits of sin are confirmed; it pleads prescription; and it is just with God to give those up to their own hearts’ lusts that have long refused to give themselves up to his grace. Sin is the blackness of the soul, the deformity of it; it is its spot, the discolouring of it; it is natural to us, we were shapen in it, so that we cannot get clear of it by any power of our own. But there is an almighty grace that is able to change the Ethiopian’s skin, and that grace shall not be wanting to those who in a sense of their need of it seek it earnestly and improve it faithfully.

If sin was natural, a man would not have to learn it. A baby by instinct will drink at it's mother breast, that is natural. Sin is learned, it is not natural.

 

[Winman]

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )

Paul said the Gentiles BY NATURE do the things contained in the law. That is GOOD, not evil. Paul said they had the law written on their hearts and conscience.

This scripture would not be possible if men are born with a sin nature.

Paul also shows that sin goes against a man's nature.

Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

Paul here shows that sin is not natural, but goes against that which is natural.

 

[DHK]

This is actually the very best verse in all of scripture to argue that we are born with a sin nature because a leopard indeed is born with spots, but that is not what the verse is saying, it says that we are "accustomed" to sin.

Jer 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

The word "accustomed" means a LEARNED BEHAVIOR. Accustomed in the scriptures is limmuwd which is defined as;

1) taught, learned, discipled
a) taught
b) accustomed to (something)

It is like drinking or smoking. Most people do not like to drink alcohol at first, but with practice they become accustomed to it and it becomes second nature. It is the same with smoking, most people choke and cough when they first smoke because it is not natural. But if they continue to practice smoking they become accustomed to it and it becomes second nature.

Jeremiah 13:23 is figurative language. It is saying that the Jews were so accustomed to sinning that it had become second nature to them, as though they were born that way.

Matthew Henry



If sin was natural, a man would not have to learn it. A baby by instinct will drink at it's mother breast, that is natural. Sin is learned, it is not natural.

Did you read carefully that which you have posted from MH? Look again:

The disease that is inveterate is generally thought incurable. Those that have been long accustomed to sin have shaken off the restraint of fear and shame; their consciences are seared; the habits of sin are confirmed; it pleads prescription; and it is just with God to give those up to their own hearts' lusts that have long refused to give themselves up to his grace. Sin is the blackness of the soul, the deformity of it; it is its spot, the discolouring of it; it is natural to us, we were shapen in it, so that we cannot get clear of it by any power of our own.

Matthew Henry was not agreeing with you. The verse teaches we have a sin nature. Because we have a sin nature we are accustomed to doing sin. The one arises out of the other. A leopard does not learn how to have spots, and an Ethiopian does not learn how to be black. It is in their nature, their genetic make-up. But you won't even admit that.

 

[DHK]

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )

Paul said the Gentiles BY NATURE do the things contained in the law. That is GOOD, not evil. Paul said they had the law written on their hearts and conscience.

This scripture would not be possible if men are born with a sin nature.

Paul also shows that sin goes against a man's nature.

Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

Paul here shows that sin is not natural, but goes against that which is natural.

Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

The law is written in their hearts. They know the difference between right and wrong. And when they do wrong they know it is wrong, and yet they do it anyway. It is in their nature to do so. When they do wrong, their conscience bears witness to them that they are doing wrong. When they do wrong they begin to accuse others of their wrong. This is human nature; man's nature; man's sinful nature that he is born with.

 

[Jedi Knight]

John 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you...:type:

 

[DHK]

Jeremiah 13:23 is figurative language. It is saying that the Jews were so accustomed to sinning that it had become second nature to them, as though they were born that way.

Matthew Henry

If sin was natural, a man would not have to learn it. A baby by instinct will drink at it's mother breast, that is natural. Sin is learned, it is not natural.

Winman?
Matthew Henry is a Presbyterian. How many other Presbyterians can you convince that man does not have a sin nature?

 

[Winman]

Winman?
Matthew Henry is a Presbyterian. How many other Presbyterians can you convince that man does not have a sin nature?

I was aware that Matthew Henry was a Calvinist, but even Calvinists let the truth slip out now and then. What I was trying to show you is that Jeremiah 13:23 says that sin is a learned behavior, it is something men become "accustomed" to. Jer 13:23 is simply saying that the Jews were so accustomed to practicing sin that it had become a second nature to them. Matthew Henry knew what the word ACCUSTOMED in this verse meant, that is why I showed him.

Paul said the Gentiles BY NATURE do the things contained in the law, showing the law written on their hearts and conscience. Paul also said evil persons go against that which is natural and commit unnatural acts.

See, you like to cherry pick verses you like, and you completely IGNORE scripture that refutes you. You will completely ignore that Paul said the Gentiles by nature do the things contained in the law.

Believe what you want, honest readers will see who is telling the truth, and who is perverting scripture. :thumbsup:

 

[DHK]

I was aware that Matthew Henry was a Calvinist, but even Calvinists let the truth slip out now and then. What I was trying to show you is that Jeremiah 13:23 says that sin is a learned behavior, it is something men become "accustomed" to. Jer 13:23 is simply saying that the Jews were so accustomed to practicing sin that it had become a second nature to them. Matthew Henry knew what the word ACCUSTOMED in this verse meant, that is why I showed him.

Like I first posted: "Even if he did show you such verses would you believe them?" Obviously no.

Paul said the Gentiles BY NATURE do the things contained in the law, showing the law written on their hearts and conscience. Paul also said evil persons go against that which is natural and commit unnatural acts.

See, you like to cherry pick verses you like, and you completely IGNORE scripture that refutes you. You will completely ignore that Paul said the Gentiles by nature do the things contained in the law.

Believe what you want, honest readers will see who is telling the truth, and who is perverting scripture. :thumbsup:

A half truth is a lie. That is what you have posted here.
It is part of a verse that when posted as such makes a lie out of what God is saying. That is shameful.
It doesn't go with the rest of the verse when he says: "their conscience also bearing witness while accusing one another."

You are doing this: The Bible says in Psalm 14:1 "There is no God." Good teaching right? It does say that, but that is not what it teaches. You have taken scripture out of its context in the same way.

The law is written on every man's heart, and Winman, they break the law!! Why? They have sin natures. And their consciences, which they have from birth, bear witness to this fact. Even children, toddlers, accuse each other.

 

[Iconoclast]

Did you read carefully that which you have posted from MH? Look again:

Matthew Henry was not agreeing with you. The verse teaches we have a sin nature. Because we have a sin nature we are accustomed to doing sin. The one arises out of the other. A leopard does not learn how to have spots, and an Ethiopian does not learn how to be black. It is in their nature, their genetic make-up. But you won't even admit that.

:thumbsup::wavey::thumbs: This is most of the problem....he reads and mis-quotes not even understanding what he is posting.Thank you for the clarity here DHK!!!

Eccl.7:29

You should know better than to use this verse?
Do you know what the context is, and why Solomon is saying this?
Do you really believe that God has created all men upright?
You are ignoring context.

LOL .....that will not stop him from posting it 157 more times...lol

Winman said;

Believe what you want, honest readers will see who is telling the truth, and who is perverting scripture.

Yes...we see...lol.

 

[Winman]

Like I first posted: "Even if he did show you such verses would you believe them?" Obviously no.

Just as when I have showed you Ecc 7:29 where Solomon said God has made men upright, you have refused to believe.

A half truth is a lie. That is what you have posted here.
It is part of a verse that when posted as such makes a lie out of what God is saying. That is shameful.
It doesn't go with the rest of the verse when he says: "their conscience also bearing witness while accusing one another."

It says accusing or "else excusing" one another.

Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )

It is not me that is telling a half truth, but YOU. You conveniently left out part of the verse in an attempt to skew it's meaning to agree with you. These Gentiles have the law written on their hearts and conscience and therefore they know if what they have done is wrong (accusing) or right (excusing) one another. They know both right and wrong. They are not compelled to sin every moment as many falsely teach here.

You are doing this: The Bible says in Psalm 14:1 "There is no God." Good teaching right? It does say that, but that is not what it teaches. You have taken scripture out of its context in the same way.

I have never said such a thing about Psa 14:1, when I do, then you can accuse me of twisting scripture. You will say anything to justify yourself.

The law is written on every man's heart, and Winman, they break the law!! Why? They have sin natures. And their consciences, which they have from birth, bear witness to this fact. Even children, toddlers, accuse each other.

Of course all men break the law, and because we have the law written on our hearts and a conscience we all deep down KNOW we are sinners.

But the fact is, it is natural for man to do right. When a man does right he feels good about himself, he does not feel guilty. Sin is unnatural, when a man does wrong he knows it and feels guilty. Why? Because he KNOWS how he is supposed to act.

If we are born sinners that are compelled to sin, then sin is a calamity or disease and God should feel pity on us. It is because men are not born sinners and it is natural for us to do right that we are judged guilty of a crime when we do wrong.

If a woman takes drugs and becomes addicted she might be charged with a crime and be sent to jail. But if her baby is born addicted to drugs, no just person would punish that innocent baby. His addiction is not a crime, but a calamity and disease caused by another. All men would pity this baby (and rightfully so) and try to help it be cured of the addiction imposed on it.

Likewise, if we are made sinners by Adam, we should be pitied, not held guilty for something we did not willfully choose or cause.

Jeremiah did not ask if the Ethiopian is born with black skin or if the leopard is born with spots, he asked if they could CHANGE their skin and spots.

Jer 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

This verse is not speaking about men being born as sinners, it is saying that the Jews were so accustomed to sinning that it was almost impossible to CHANGE their ways or repent.

That went right over your head.

 

[Winman]

:thumbsup::wavey::thumbs: This is most of the problem....he reads and mis-quotes not even understanding what he is posting.Thank you for the clarity here DHK!!!

Eccl.7:29


LOL .....that will not stop him from posting it 157 more times...lol

Winman said;



Yes...we see...lol.

I said HONEST readers, that excludes YOU.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I said HONEST readers, that excludes YOU.

Oh...bang zoom:tonofbricks:

Just so you know...Iconoclasts credibility is not in question by his own....you--not so much.

 

[steaver]

John 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you...:type:

Jesus also chose Judas, what went wrong?

 

[evangelist-7]

How the born-again Christian gets to become saved:
(1) gospel presented ... (2) God's gift of faith given ... (3) spiritual revelation (major veil removed) ...
(4) BELIEF ... (5) born-again ... (6) positional sanctification ... (7) turn to the Lord in faith ...
(8) veil removed about other spiritual things ... (9) co-operation with sanctifcation process begins ...
(10) sanctification continues in earnest, believer is a successful "overcomer"

Obvious Question ... Who exactly is blessed with step (2)?

IMO, major free-will decisions are to be made in (4) and (7) and (9), i.e. man is free to reject everything.

I'm interested in hearing your positive and/or negative comments on the above sequence of events.
.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Jesus also chose Judas, what went wrong?

Matthew 26:24

The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.