Man is unable to choose spiritual life (salvation) on his own!

[DHK]

Just as when I have showed you Ecc 7:29 where Solomon said God has made men upright, you have refused to believe.

And I showed you the context, and why you shouldn't use that verse.
So it was said to Eve: "Thou shalt not surely die." Do you believe that too?
It is a promise written in the Bible. Do you sing the children's chorus: "Every promise in Book is mine; every chapter every verse every line."
I guess that one is for you too, isn't it?

It says accusing or "else excusing" one another.

Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )

It is not me that is telling a half truth, but YOU. You conveniently left out part of the verse in an attempt to skew it's meaning to agree with you. These Gentiles have the law written on their hearts and conscience and therefore they know if what they have done is wrong (accusing) or right (excusing) one another. They know both right and wrong. They are not compelled to sin every moment as many falsely teach here.

The fact remains that because of their sin nature they sin every day.
Even though they have the law written on their hearts they break it. They know they sin. What do they do about it? They start accusing others of their own sins, and excusing themselves of it. They just make it worse. That is a result of the human nature; the depravity of man's nature. It they weren't so depraved they would own up to their own sin, instead of trying to pass it off on someone else.

I have never said such a thing about Psa 14:1, when I do, then you can accuse me of twisting scripture. You will say anything to justify yourself.

You didn't have. I "eisigeted" Psalm 14:1 for you, in the same way you "eisigeted" Romans 2:14,15. You came to wrong conclusions. Perhaps deliberately so.

Of course all men break the law, and because we have the law written on our hearts and a conscience we all deep down KNOW we are sinners.

And we know we are sinners as far back as we can remember. In fact we cannot remember a day when we were "good." Better yet Jesus said "Why do you call me "good"? Know ye not that there is only one that is good, and that is God? Do you know the meaning of this verse Winman?

But the fact is, it is natural for man to do right.

It is natural for him to do wrong. I can't believe you said what you just did.
I could send you a picture of a two year old with bite marks on his cheek put there by a four year old. Is it natural to do good? No. These little children do evil naturally--naturally selfish, brutal, angry, etc. Two to four year olds: exhibiting the most sinful of natures.

When a man does right he feels good about himself, he does not feel guilty.

Every false religion is like that. One doesn't get to heaven based on their feelings. Feelings are deceptive. Good works are as filthy rags. There is one that is good.

Sin is unnatural, when a man does wrong he knows it and feels guilty. Why? Because he KNOWS how he is supposed to act.

You post as if you have never come in contact with children. Do you have to teach children to tell the truth, or teach them how to lie? Which one?

If we are born sinners that are compelled to sin, then sin is a calamity or disease and God should feel pity on us.

God does feel pity on us. That is why He sent Jesus Christ to redeem us. But even though he redeems those who put their trust in him we will always have this sin nature to contend with until we die. You can read about the battle that Paul had with it in Romans 7.

It is because men are not born sinners and it is natural for us to do right that we are judged guilty of a crime when we do wrong.

If men are not born sinners why hasn't there ever been even one case of a man who have defied the odds and made it to heaven by not sinning? It is impossible because man has a sin nature and therefore sins. Charles Finney believed as you do. He believed that because man did not have sin natures it was possible to "grow Christian communities" wherein there would be no sin, and Christians could live to sinless perfection. Guess what? He failed.

If a woman takes drugs and becomes addicted she might be charged with a crime and be sent to jail. But if her baby is born addicted to drugs, no just person would punish that innocent baby. His addiction is not a crime, but a calamity and disease caused by another. All men would pity this baby (and rightfully so) and try to help it be cured of the addiction imposed on it.

And if that child grows up to be a man, and goes out and commits crimes, will his crimes be the result of his parents or will he be held accountable for his own crimes? He will be held accountable for his own crimes no matter what upbringing he had. We are all held accountable for our own sins. We all have a sin nature.

Likewise, if we are made sinners by Adam, we should be pitied, not held guilty for something we did not willfully choose or cause.

God pitied us. He sent his son to die for us.

Jeremiah did not ask if the Ethiopian is born with black skin or if the leopard is born with spots, he asked if they could CHANGE their skin and spots.

Semantics. They were born with a nature they could not change.

Jer 13:23

Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

This verse is not speaking about men being born as sinners, it is saying that the Jews were so accustomed to sinning that it was almost impossible to CHANGE their ways or repent.

They were born with a nature that could not do good naturally (as the Ethiopian and the leopard could not change neither could they), and the result was that they sinned naturally and were accustomed to doing it. They were accustomed to sinning because it was in their nature. You can't divorce the last statement from the first two.

 

[Yeshua1]

Do these scriptures really say we are forced to obey evil? Let's see...

Jhn 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Did Jesus say a person is forced to obey sin here? NOPE, Jesus said the man who commits sin is the servant of sin. That is because the moment you sin, you "sell" yourself to sin and come under it's bondage. You are now condemned to death for your sin and cannot escape unless you trust in Christ. When we trust in Jesus we are baptized into his death and die to sin. We are like a woman who was married but her husband dies, now we are free to marry another. We are now married to Jesus and under grace.

This is what being a servant of sin means, it does not mean we are compelled to obey sin.

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

Do these verses say we are forced to sin? Hardly. In fact they show we have the ability to obey the gospel and yield ourselves to righteousness to holiness.

Again, Calvinism teaches the EXACT OPPOSITE of what scripture really says.

Tit 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

Does this verse say we are forced to sin? NO, it simply states that we used to sin. People read into scripture what is not there.

So, none of the verses quoted prove that man is forced to sin.

problem for you is that BOTH calvinists and Arminians agree and affirm the biblical truth that ALL except for jesus were born as sinners, ONLY Jesus was sinless at birth!

As such, ONLY he could choose to do what you propose, obey God and keep the law , and he duid that because we as sinners were totally unable to do that!

 

[Winman]

And I showed you the context, and why you shouldn't use that verse.
So it was said to Eve: "Thou shalt not surely die." Do you believe that too?
It is a promise written in the Bible. Do you sing the children's chorus: "Every promise in Book is mine; every chapter every verse every line."
I guess that one is for you too, isn't it?

Baloney, Solomon was making general statements about all men. He had just said:

Ecc 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

Even you would agree this is a general statement concerning all men. This is the context where Solomon said that God has made man UPRIGHT, but THEY (plural, showing this is speaking of all men) have sought out many inventions. Verse 29 agrees perfectly with verse 20, men are born upright, but all men go out in sin and corrupt themselves.

The fact remains that because of their sin nature they sin every day.
Even though they have the law written on their hearts they break it. They know they sin. What do they do about it? They start accusing others of their own sins, and excusing themselves of it. They just make it worse. That is a result of the human nature; the depravity of man's nature. It they weren't so depraved they would own up to their own sin, instead of trying to pass it off on someone else.

Men sin because they CHOOSE to sin, nobody puts a gun to your head and makes you sin. The devil didn't force Adam and Eve to sin. You make excuse for sin.

You didn't have. I "eisigeted" Psalm 14:1 for you, in the same way you "eisigeted" Romans 2:14,15. You came to wrong conclusions. Perhaps deliberately so.

Do me a favor and do not interpret scripture for me, you are LOUSY at it.

And we know we are sinners as far back as we can remember. In fact we cannot remember a day when we were "good." Better yet Jesus said "Why do you call me "good"? Know ye not that there is only one that is good, and that is God? Do you know the meaning of this verse Winman?

When did I deny men are sinners? I have never denied that all men when they mature and understand right from wrong will willingly and knowingly sin. Strawman.

It is natural for him to do wrong. I can't believe you said what you just did.
I could send you a picture of a two year old with bite marks on his cheek put there by a four year old. Is it natural to do good? No. These little children do evil naturally--naturally selfish, brutal, angry, etc. Two to four year olds: exhibiting the most sinful of natures.

I disagree, it is not natural for men to do wrong, and this is why men feel guilty when they do wrong. We do not feel guilty for what is natural, we do not feel guilty for having blue eyes, being short, having to eat and go to the bathroom, etc... These are all natural things no man feels guilty for.

But all men feel guilty when they do wrong because they naturally sense this is not the way they are supposed to behave. Even unsaved people feel guilty.

Every false religion is like that. One doesn't get to heaven based on their feelings. Feelings are deceptive. Good works are as filthy rags. There is one that is good.

Another strawman, when did I say a person gets to heaven by feelings?

You post as if you have never come in contact with children. Do you have to teach children to tell the truth, or teach them how to lie? Which one?

I have 8 children. Children are known FAR more for being brutally honest than dishonest. Yes, all children lie and have to be corrected, but children by nature are extremely honest.

God does feel pity on us. That is why He sent Jesus Christ to redeem us. But even though he redeems those who put their trust in him we will always have this sin nature to contend with until we die. You can read about the battle that Paul had with it in Romans 7.

I do not deny we are flesh that tempts us. Jesus also came in the flesh and was tempted in all points as we are, yet without sin. Being tempted by our flesh is not sinful, else Jesus would have been a sinner.

If men are not born sinners why hasn't there ever been even one case of a man who have defied the odds and made it to heaven by not sinning? It is impossible because man has a sin nature and therefore sins. Charles Finney believed as you do. He believed that because man did not have sin natures it was possible to "grow Christian communities" wherein there would be no sin, and Christians could live to sinless perfection. Guess what? He failed.

Bogus argument. Adam and Eve lived in a perfect world and sinned the very first time they were tempted. We live in a utterly corrupt world with thousands of temptations, what makes you think a man could live a lifetime without sinning?

It isn't amazing that we all sin, what is amazing is that Jesus lived 33 years as a man in this utterly corrupt world and never sinned.

And if that child grows up to be a man, and goes out and commits crimes, will his crimes be the result of his parents or will he be held accountable for his own crimes? He will be held accountable for his own crimes no matter what upbringing he had. We are all held accountable for our own sins. We all have a sin nature.

That is not what Augustine taught, he taught that we inherit Adam's sin and are guilty. He taught that if a child dies unbaptized that he goes to Hell. A horrible doctrine.

Obviously Augustine did not read Romans 9:11

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

You can claim we are born sinners all day long, but Romans 9:11 shows that babies have committed no sin. If you want to believe the false doctrine of Augustine that is up to you, I will believe the word of God.

God pitied us. He sent his son to die for us.

Yes, God loved us when we were yet sinners.

Semantics. They were born with a nature they could not change.

They were born with a nature that could not do good naturally (as the Ethiopian and the leopard could not change neither could they), and the result was that they sinned naturally and were accustomed to doing it. They were accustomed to sinning because it was in their nature. You can't divorce the last statement from the first two.

Jeremiah was not teaching Original Sin here. He did not ask if an Ethiopian is born with dark skin, or if a leopard is born with spots. He asked if they could CHANGE their skin or spots. This is the point Jeremiah is making, that these Jews were so accustomed to sin that it had almost become their very nature to sin, as though they were born this way. If you understand Jeremiah's meaning properly, it actually refutes your view and shows that men are not born sinful.

If men are born sinful as the Ethiopian has dark skin or the leopard has spots, how could you expect them to change??

See, you don't even get it, Jeremiah's question actually refutes that men are born with a sin nature.

But I expect this will go right over your head.

 

[Yeshua1]

Baloney, Solomon was making general statements about all men. He had just said:

Ecc 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

Even you would agree this is a general statement concerning all men. This is the context where Solomon said that God has made man UPRIGHT, but THEY (plural, showing this is speaking of all men) have sought out many inventions. Verse 29 agrees perfectly with verse 20, men are born upright, but all men go out in sin and corrupt themselves.



Men sin because the CHOOSE to sin, nobody puts a gun to your head and makes you sin. The devil didn't force Adam and Eve to sin. You make excuse for sin.



Do me a favor and do not interpret scripture for me, you are LOUSY at it.



When did I deny men are sinners? I have never denied that all men when they mature and understand right from wrong will willingly and knowingly sin. Strawman.



I disagree, it is not natural for men to do wrong, and this is why men feel guitly when they do wrong. We do not feel guilty for what is natural, we do not feel guilty for having blue eyes, being short, having to eat and go to the bathroom, etc... These are all natural things no man feels guilty for.

But all men feel guilty when they do wrong because they naturally sense this is not the way they are supposed to behave. Even unsaved people feel guilty.



Another strawman, when did I say a person gets to heaven by feelings?



I have 8 children. Children are known FAR more for being brutally honest than dishonest. Yes, all children lie and have to be corrected, but children by nature are extremely honest.



I do not deny we are flesh that tempts us. Jesus also came in the flesh and was tempted in all points as we are, yet without sin. Being tempted by our flesh is not sinful, else Jesus would have been a sinner.



Bogus argument. Adam and Eve lived in a perfect world and sinned the very first time they were tempted. We live in a utterly corrupt world with thousands of temptations, what makes you think a man could live a lifetime without sinning?

It isn't amazing that we all sin, what is amazing is that Jesus lived 33 years as a man in this utterly corrupt world and never sinned.



That is not what Augustine taught, he taught that we inherit Adam's sin and are guilty. He taught that if a child dies unbaptized that he goes to Hell. A horrible doctrine.

Obviously Augustine did not read Romans 9:11

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

You can claim we are born sinners all day long, but Romans 9:11 shows that babies have committed no sin. If you want to believe the false doctrine of Augustine that is up to you, I will believe the word of God.



Yes, God loved us when we were yet sinners.



Jeremiah was not teaching Original Sin here. He did not ask if an Ethiopian is born with dark skin, or if a leopard is born with spots. He asked if they could CHANGE their skin or spots. This is the point Jeremiah is making, that these Jews were so accustomed to sin that it had almost become their very nature to sin, as though they were born this way. If you understand Jeremiah's meaning properly, it actually refutes your view and shows that men are not born sinful.

If men are born sinful as the Ethiopian has dark skin or the leopard has spots, how could you expect them to change??

See, you don't even get it, Jeremiah's question actually refutes that men are born with a sin nature.

But I expect this will go right over your head.

IF God is all good/perfect etc as we claim He is...

A Human without a sin nature would ALWAYS be obeying and in love with him, for what would be in us to even think of rejecting the very one who made us, who is all good and loviong towards us?

Answer we reject because there is nothing good in us, we all have herats deceitful and wicked, that ids the prophet Jeremiah for you!

 

[Winman]

IF God is all good/perfect etc as we claim He is...

A Human without a sin nature would ALWAYS be obeying and in love with him, for what would be in us to even think of rejecting the very one who made us, who is all good and loviong towards us?

Answer we reject because there is nothing good in us, we all have herats deceitful and wicked, that ids the prophet Jeremiah for you!

As usual, you do not know what you are talking about. Adam and Eve did not have a sin nature, yet both of them sinned.

You just can't seem to grasp that all that is needed to sin is free will can you?

Jeremiah's statement in Jer 13:23 does not make sense if we are born with a sin nature.

Jeremiah- Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

Jews- Well duh, Jeremiah, did you forget we were born with a sin nature and sinning is all we are able to do? Why are you upset with us for sinning when you know we were born with a sin nature and must sin? I mean, come on man, let's be real, what do you want from us?

This would be a valid response if we are born with a sin nature. How can God expect us to be good if we are born with a sin nature? How can God be upset with us if we are born with a sin nature?

Folks do not use their brain, if we are all born with a sin nature, then God should expect us to sin. God is not stupid you know.

If we are born with a sin nature, then God should expect us to sin. If he does not like that, he can simply change our nature. But to be upset with us is unreasonable, for if we have a sin nature, then sinning is all we are able to do.

I tell ya, folks just can't think.

 

[DHK]

Baloney, Solomon was making general statements about all men. He had just said:

Ecc 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

Even you would agree this is a general statement concerning all men. This is the context where Solomon said that God has made man UPRIGHT, but THEY (plural, showing this is speaking of all men) have sought out many inventions. Verse 29 agrees perfectly with verse 20, men are born upright, but all men go out in sin and corrupt themselves.

You totally ignore context here. I will quote it for you so you can see it.
You can see for yourself how absurd your conclusion is:

Ecclesiastes 7:25 I have turned round, also my heart, to know and to search, and to seek out wisdom, and reason, and to know the wrong of folly, and of foolishness the madness.
26 And I am finding more bitter than death, the woman whose heart is nets and snares, her hands are bands; the good before God escapeth from her, but the sinner is captured by her.
27 See, this I have found, said the Preacher, one to one, to find out the reason
28 (that still my soul had sought, and I had not found), One man, a teacher, I have found, and a woman among all these I have not found.
29 See, this alone I have found, that God made man upright, and they--they have sought out many devices.

Throughout you can see the contrast between man and woman. He cannot find an "upright woman." The conclusion he is making is that God has made man upright and not women. Women are not made upright, according to Solomon's view. This is the context.
He is looking at life from a secular point of view. Look at the beginning verse of the paragraph:
Ecclesiastes 7:23 All this I have tried by wisdom; I have said, `I am wise,' and it is far from me.
--This is man's wisdom speaking; not God's wisdom. "I am wise," he says. Man's wisdom comes to different conclusions then God. One must wait until chapter 12 to find out the "truth of the matter."

Men sin because they CHOOSE to sin, nobody puts a gun to your head and makes you sin. The devil didn't force Adam and Eve to sin. You make excuse for sin.

Yes man chooses to sin. But he did not choose to be a sinner. He inherits a sin nature from Adam. Why would a four year old bite a two year old out of the goodness of his heart? Why does the same age group tell lies? I thought they do good naturally?? They don't, and those are facts.

When did I deny men are sinners? I have never denied that all men when they mature and understand right from wrong will willingly and knowingly sin. Strawman.

Psalms 58:3 The wicked have been estranged from the womb, They have erred from the belly, speaking lies.
--Sinners from birth. You have never denied that??

I disagree, it is not natural for men to do wrong, and this is why men feel guilty when they do wrong. We do not feel guilty for what is natural, we do not feel guilty for having blue eyes, being short, having to eat and go to the bathroom, etc... These are all natural things no man feels guilty for.

You don't even make sense. Having blue eyes is not talking of moral goodness or evil or their inherent nature to do so. All mankind have an evil nature. Blue eyes and shortness in stature are not the indicators of it.

But all men feel guilty when they do wrong because they naturally sense this is not the way they are supposed to behave. Even unsaved people feel guilty.

Correct! They feel guilty from their birth because they have an inherent sin nature. Why would a four year old bite a two year old? Out of love?

Another strawman, when did I say a person gets to heaven by feelings?

The implication was there. Feel good about yourself. Be good. Don't sin. Its possible isn't it? That is Finney's Oberlin Theology combined with a bit of Humanism that you are promoting.

I have 8 children. Children are known FAR more for being brutally honest than dishonest. Yes, all children lie and have to be corrected, but children by nature are extremely honest.

Maybe you are a doting elderly father or grandfather that are blind to their faults because of your "love" for them. Jacob was like that to some degree with both Joseph and Benjamin. Joseph's brothers hated him because he was his father's favorite. He was given a coat of many colors which indicated that. Afterward, Benjamin was not allowed to be with his elder brothers. His father doted on him. If he would die, then his father would die also.

I do not deny we are flesh that tempts us. Jesus also came in the flesh and was tempted in all points as we are, yet without sin. Being tempted by our flesh is not sinful, else Jesus would have been a sinner.

This is a non sequitor.
Who said anything about temptation. The definition of sin is given in 1John 3:4. It is a transgression of the law. Christ never transgressed the law. You have. We all have. We do because we are sinners from birth. We lie from birth onward. That is a transgression of the law. Thou shalt not lie.

Bogus argument. Adam and Eve lived in a perfect world and sinned the very first time they were tempted.

You don't take into account the whole story. If Eve had never been created would Adam have sinned? The account says that Eve was tempted, but Adam was not tempted. Adam rebelled. He had to make a choice. Side with Eve or with God. Presumably he had sympathy for his wife.

We live in a utterly corrupt world with thousands of temptations, what makes you think a man could live a lifetime without sinning?

He can't because he has a sin nature.
Finney thought he could. Finney was wrong because he didn't take into consideration the sin nature of mankind, which he denied.

It isn't amazing that we all sin, what is amazing is that Jesus lived 33 years as a man in this utterly corrupt world and never sinned.

You sound like you deny that Christ is deity, and that he was just a good man that got through life without sin. Is that your view? Christ had no sin nature because he was born of a virgin and conceived of the Holy Spirit. His nature was divine.

That is not what Augustine taught, he taught that we inherit Adam's sin and are guilty. He taught that if a child dies unbaptized that he goes to Hell. A horrible doctrine.

Do I care what Augustine taught? I am not a Calvinist.
Why do you bring up a total red herring?

Obviously Augustine did not read Romans 9:11

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

And your point is??

You can claim we are born sinners all day long, but Romans 9:11 shows that babies have committed no sin. If you want to believe the false doctrine of Augustine that is up to you, I will believe the word of God.

I don't sin when I am preaching, but I am still a sinner.
I am a sinner saved by grace.
So are my children, no matter what age they are.

Jeremiah was not teaching Original Sin here. He did not ask if an Ethiopian is born with dark skin, or if a leopard is born with spots. He asked if they could CHANGE their skin or spots. This is the point Jeremiah is making, that these Jews were so accustomed to sin that it had almost become their very nature to sin, as though they were born this way. If you understand Jeremiah's meaning properly, it actually refutes your view and shows that men are not born sinful. [/quuote]
The Ethiopian has black skin from birth. Only the grace of God could change that.
The leopard has a spotted hide from birth. Only the grace of God could change that.
The Israelites did evil from birth. They were accustomed to it. Only the grace of God could change that.

 

[Winman]

Not one bible commentary I have looked at interprets Ecc 7:29 as you do.

Barnes

God hath made - Rather, God made. A definite allusion to the original state of man: in which he was exempt from vanity.

Gill

Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright,
&c.] The first man Adam, as the Targum and Jarchi interpret it; and not Adam only, but Eve also with him; for these were both made by the Lord, and on the same day, and in the same image, and had the same common name of Adam given them, ( Genesis 1:27 ) ( 5:2 ) ; And they were both made "upright"; which is to be understood, not of the erectness of their bodies, but of the disposition of their minds; they were

Matthew Henry

God made man upright; Adam the first man, so the Chaldee. God made him, and he made him upright, such a one as he should be; being made a rational creature, he was, in all respects, such a one as a rational creature should be, upright, without any irregularity; one could find no fault in him; he was upright, that is, determined to God only, in opposition to the many inventions which he afterwards turned aside to. Man, as he came out of God’s hands, was (as we may say) a little picture of his Maker, who is good and upright. Secondly, How he was marred, and in effect unmade, by his own folly and badness: They have sought out many inventions —they, our first parents, or the whole race, all in general and every one in particular. They have sought out great inventions (so some), inventions to become great as gods

I could show more, but you get the picture. Now all of these famous theologians agree with my interpretation, although they may limit the verse to be speaking of Adam and Eve only. I disagree and believe "they" applies to all men.

But none of these theologians understood this scripture as you have. You are out in the middle of the sea in your little rowboat alone.

 

[Winman]

Correct! They feel guilty from their birth because they have an inherent sin nature. Why would a four year old bite a two year old? Out of love?

Pure nonsense! Why should a man feel guilty about being born a sinner? That would be like feeling guilty for being born blind or crippled.

You just don't get it, if you are born with a sin nature, you are not a criminal, you are DISABLED. You are not a sinner by choice and therefore responsible for your sin, you are a victim of Adam's sin, just as a crack baby would be an innocent victim of his mother's sin.

I can't believe I am having to explain this to a supposed intelligent man. If you cannot understand this then you are truly DENSE.

 

[DHK]

Not one bible commentary I have looked at interprets Ecc 7:29 as you do.

Barnes

Gill

Matthew Henry

I could show more, but you get the picture. Now all of these famous theologians agree with my interpretation, although they may limit the verse to be speaking of Adam and Eve only. I disagree and believe "they" applies to all men.

But none of these theologians understood this scripture as you have. You are out in the middle of the sea in your little rowboat alone.

Jamieson, Faucett and Brown was the first one I opened.

29. The "only" way of accounting for the scarcity of even comparatively upright men and women is that, whereas God made man upright, they (men) have, &c. The only account to be "found" of the origin of evil, the great mystery of theology, is that given in Holy Writ (Ge 2-3). Among man's "inventions" was the one especially referred to in Ec 7:26, the bitter fruits of which Solomon experienced, the breaking of God's primeval marriage law, joining one man to "one" woman (Mt 19:4-5,6). "Man" is singular, namely, Adam; "they," plural, Adam, Eve, and their posterity.

But it doesn't make a difference what the commentaries say. Did you look at the context? Did you see what I pointed out to you? Do you pay attention to what the Scriptures as a whole say? Do you do that Winman?

 

[Winman]

Jamieson, Faucett and Brown was the first one I opened.

But it doesn't make a difference what the commentaries say. Did you look at the context? Did you see what I pointed out to you? Do you pay attention to what the Scriptures as a whole say? Do you do that Winman?

I can see how you arrived at your interpretation, but it doesn't make sense. If this is speaking of men and women, who is this man that was made upright?

You see, there is no upright man in your view except Adam. So your interpretation crumbles.

As you can see, many theologians believe as I do that this is speaking of the original state of man. Gill limits it to Adam and Eve only, but Barnes and Henry allow for it to be speaking of all men as I believe.

But again, if men are born with a sin nature and cannot help but sin, then men should be treated as victims, not criminals. God is smarter than this, he treats us as criminals because we are criminals, because we have free will and can choose between good and evil. We are not enslaved to always commit evil.

In fact, if you were honest you would admit that you are NEVER compelled, that is FORCED to sin. Yes, you may feel strong temptation, but that is not sin.

Your view is nothing but an excuse for sin. No man can be sorry for his sin if deep in his heart he feels he must sin by his nature.

 

[DHK]

In fact, if you were honest you would admit that you are NEVER compelled, that is FORCED to sin. Yes, you may feel strong temptation, but that is not sin.

Your view is nothing but an excuse for sin. No man can be sorry for his sin if deep in his heart he feels he must sin by his nature.

Then by your own logic, why are you not perfect?
Why haven't you attained sinless perfection?

The obvious reason--you have a sin nature!

 

[evangelist-7]

... there is no upright man in your view except Adam.
... if men are born with a sin nature and cannot help but sin, then men should be treated as victims, not criminals.
God is smarter than this, he treats us as criminals because we are criminals,
because we have free will and can choose between good and evil.
We are not enslaved to always commit evil.
In fact, if you were honest you would admit that you are NEVER compelled, that is FORCED to sin.
Yes, you may feel strong temptation, but that is not sin.
Your view is nothing but an excuse for sin.
No man can be sorry for his sin if deep in his heart he feels he must sin by his nature.

Here's what I have always seen as obvious ...

- Adam & Eve were created with free will
- they chose to disobey God
- God altered them to have a sin nature
- their sin nature was passed down
- animals with free will do what their nature is
- humans with free will do what their nature is

Human beings MUST sin ... that is obvious ... Scripture says ALL sin, period!

If 'twas a choice, some would choose to be totally perfect ... like Jesus was.

Jesus' "father" had to be someone/something without a sin nature, i.e. not a human.

My personal favorite ...
After Noah +7 strolled out of the Ark, God said:
Genesis 8:21 ”Then the Lord said in His heart, ‘… the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth …’ ”

I.E. the beat goes on ... with man's unstoppable sinning ... because he MUST sin!

Dat's why no one is born fit to be with a Holy God in Heaven.
.

 

[Winman]

- God altered them to have a sin nature

You my friend have just made God the AUTHOR of sin.

Now, I appreciate your honesty, very few Calvinists will actually admit that Calvinism teaches this (or rather, that it is the logical conclusion of Calvinism), but you have been honest enough to admit it. Thank you.

I absolutely disagree with your view, but I appreciate your honesty. If only others were so honest.

 

[Winman]

Then by your own logic, why are you not perfect?
Why haven't you attained sinless perfection?

The obvious reason--you have a sin nature!

My answer would be unbelief. We do not always believe God. We think we know better than God, we think we can get away with sin. So, we take matters into our own hands and sin.

There are lots of reasons folks can invent to rationalize sin. This is what we do. Or we give in to peer pressure, etc... There are a thousand reasons to sin.

But the fact is, no one is absolutely forced to sin. Yes, we can have very strong lusts and desires that are difficult to resist, but all of us can resist these desires if we really want to.

You are simply making excuse for sin when you say you MUST sin. And this is what is so evil about this false doctrine, it gives everyone an easy excuse for sin.

 

[Yeshua1]

I can see how you arrived at your interpretation, but it doesn't make sense. If this is speaking of men and women, who is this man that was made upright?

You see, there is no upright man in your view except Adam. So your interpretation crumbles.

As you can see, many theologians believe as I do that this is speaking of the original state of man. Gill limits it to Adam and Eve only, but Barnes and Henry allow for it to be speaking of all men as I believe.

But again, if men are born with a sin nature and cannot help but sin, then men should be treated as victims, not criminals. God is smarter than this, he treats us as criminals because we are criminals, because we have free will and can choose between good and evil. We are not enslaved to always commit evil.

In fact, if you were honest you would admit that you are NEVER compelled, that is FORCED to sin. Yes, you may feel strong temptation, but that is not sin.

Your view is nothing but an excuse for sin. No man can be sorry for his sin if deep in his heart he feels he must sin by his nature.

As ANY except for jesus, EVER been able to reach sinless perfection? Could ANY but jesus get right with God by keeping the Law of God?

Why did jesus HAVE to be Virgin born and be sinless in nature, being conceived by Holy spirit, IF humans are all natural born without sin natures?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Here's what I have always seen as obvious ...

- Adam & Eve were created with free will
- they chose to disobey God
- God altered them to have a sin nature
- their sin nature was passed down
- animals with free will do what their nature is
- humans with free will do what their nature is

Human beings MUST sin ... that is obvious ... Scripture says ALL sin, period!

If 'twas a choice, some would choose to be totally perfect ... like Jesus was.

Jesus' "father" had to be someone/something without a sin nature, i.e. not a human.

My personal favorite ...
After Noah +7 strolled out of the Ark, God said:
Genesis 8:21 ”Then the Lord said in His heart, ‘… the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth …’ ”

I.E. the beat goes on ... with man's unstoppable sinning ... because he MUST sin!

Dat's why no one is born fit to be with a Holy God in Heaven.
.

explain to me how He gave them a sin nature.....I dont see that in the scripture.... He cursed them But do you see anywhere he made them evil. Please provide proof.

 

[Yeshua1]

explain to me how He gave them a sin nature.....I dont see that in the scripture.... He cursed them But do you see anywhere he made them evil. Please provide proof.

seems that james thought God cannot tempt us to sin, nor that He commits sin... Wonder whose view is right here?

 

[Yeshua1]

My answer would be unbelief. We do not always believe God. We think we know better than God, we think we can get away with sin. So, we take matters into our own hands and sin.

There are lots of reasons folks can invent to rationalize sin. This is what we do. Or we give in to peer pressure, etc... There are a thousand reasons to sin.

But the fact is, no one is absolutely forced to sin. Yes, we can have very strong lusts and desires that are difficult to resist, but all of us can resist these desires if we really want to.

You are simply making excuse for sin when you say you MUST sin. And this is what is so evil about this false doctrine, it gives everyone an easy excuse for sin.

Can ANY fully resist Sin if the Holy spirit is not residing in them though?

Since NONE EVER have reached sinless perfection even with having the Spirit except for jesus,how could those without Him keep the law, or how can those saved reach that state themselves?

NONE of the Apostles could, can you?

 

[Winman]

Can ANY fully resist Sin if the Holy spirit is not residing in them though?

This is a great question. If a man does not have the Holy Spirit and the word of God dwelling in him, then he is operating in the flesh. He will naturally do what his flesh tells him to do. It is not that he cannot resist sin, but he may believe certain sinful behavior is OK. A man may drink every night and get drunk because he was brought up in a family that drinks. He does not see this behavior as sinful. When he gets saved and hears that drunkenness is a sin, he can repent and turn from this sin.

Since NONE EVER have reached sinless perfection even with having the Spirit except for jesus,how could those without Him keep the law, or how can those saved reach that state themselves?

NONE of the Apostles could, can you?

You are making the error of assuming that because a person sins, they MUST sin, when deep down we all know better. No one has ever forced me to sin, and no one has ever forced you to sin.

Again, Adam and Eve were created in a perfect world without a sin nature, and yet they both chose to sin the first time they were tempted. What makes you think that we who are born in an utterly corrupt world with thousands of temptations would do any better?

Again, it is not remarkable that we all sin. What is remarkable is that Jesus could live 33 years as a man in this corrupt world and was tempted in all points as we are, yet without sin. Now THAT is amazing!

 

[Winman]

As ANY except for jesus, EVER been able to reach sinless perfection? Could ANY but jesus get right with God by keeping the Law of God?

Of course no man has ever been sinless but Jesus, but that does not mean we HAVE to sin, only that all men choose to sin. A man doesn't have to get married, but probably 99% of men choose to get married.

Why did jesus HAVE to be Virgin born and be sinless in nature, being conceived by Holy spirit, IF humans are all natural born without sin natures?

Jesus was born of a virgin as a sign. This is clearly stated in scripture.

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Jesus being born of a virgin was a sign. How did people know that Jesus was the promised Christ? Because he was born of a virgin!

There is no scripture that supports Jesus had to be born of a virgin to escape a sin nature. That is silly superstition. You inherit your grandfather's DNA from your mother, in fact, it is generally believed that baldness is inherited from your mother's father.

The scriptures themselves say Jesus was MADE of the SEED of DAVID according to the flesh.

Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Augustine believed sin was inherited physically through the lust of sexual intercourse, a pagan gnostic belief. It is pure superstition. The scriptures tell us Jesus was made of the seed of David, so if sin is inherited from the male, then Jesus would have inherited a sin nature from David. Pure nonsense.