Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Sounds like, "His True Word",
is connected to, "He Chose to Give Birth to us".
People need His True Word.
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Many Means All??
- Thread starter Reformed1689
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Sounds like, "His True Word",
is connected to, "He Chose to Give Birth to us".
People need His True Word.
Ashes to ashes, Dust to Dust...
I'm saying just because something is sinless doesn't make it divine. Everything in existence comes "SHORT of the Glory of God" if you haven't noticed.
ad finitum
Active Member
Is this an actual difference? Couldn't the same question be asked of some (or even most) Christians in the affirmative? Contentment with, or ignorance of some sins doesn't seem to be limited to the natural man.
Utopianism is an overarching strategy to redefine, mitigate and/or eliminate sin and/or sin's consequences without recourse to the power of God. Concepts like, "Crime happens because of poverty. Therefore, eliminate poverty and reduce crime (sin)." Such like things are non-Divine solutions to sin and its problems. This is sufficient to demonstrate a natural man's lack of contentment with sin and with its consequences.
All mankind is convicted of sin -- even the natural man. Conviction creates non-contentment. It creates guilt. Feelings of guilt are not compatible with contentment. The effects of sin create non-contentment. Seeking therapies to free one from bondage to sin and its concomitant guilt and negative consequences is due to a severe lack of contentment with sin.
All these points seem to be self-evident.
It sounds like you are saying everything sins. That may be your opinion, but that is not what the Bible declares.
Second, the Bible tells us that everything on the earth is subject under the curse of man.
How is it that you are unaware?
Romans 8:19-25
For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.
Isaiah 24:5-6
The earth lies defiled under its inhabitants; for they have transgressed the laws, violated the statutes, broken the everlasting covenant. Therefore a curse devours the earth, and its inhabitants suffer for their guilt; therefore the inhabitants of the earth are scorched, and few men are left.
Is all mankind convicted of sin?
Since you make a universal statement, provide evidence.
ad finitum
Active Member
Romans 2:12-16
Tsalagi
Member
What part of "God HATES sin. Therefore God hates the sinner" did I not actually read? It's in the post, but it's not in the Bible.
Tsalagi
Member
It's only "out of context" to your theological construct. I suggest reading Deuteronomy 28 and looking for "the desire to please and glorify God" there since you are evidently disinclined to discuss Jeremiah.
Romans 2:12-16
For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.
I am waiting for that universal all for every human that exists, existed and will exist in the future. The above passage does not establish your universal claim.
Were the Israelites God's chosen people? Yes or no? Let's go read Deuteronomy 28 in its context, shall we?
Tsalagi
Member
You say, "God hates sin. Therefore God hates the sinner."
The Bible says, "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:8.
Tsalagi
Member
The "context" argument only works if you can demonstrate its pertinence, which you haven't done.
It seems to be your contention that since Israel is God's chosen people they don't have to be motivated by "the desire to please and glorify God" but with the promise of blessings and threats of judgment. Really?
And the "us" are those chosen by God. Thank you so much for sharing.
Nope, Israel is under the Sanai/Mosaic Covenant, in which God expresses blessing for obedience and curse for disobedience. Were other person's under that covenant?
ad finitum
Active Member
The passage covers those who have the law and those who don't. I think that's everyone (all). Also, chapter 1 says all men come to the knowledge of God and his attributes from what has been made.
Tsalagi
Member
Are you a sinner?
Does God hate you?
Your claim that God hates sinners is false and unbiblical, your sarcasm notwithstanding.
Tsalagi
Member
It seems a review of the discussion is in order here. I said, "The question was whether someone in bondage to sin can have a desire to escape. The answer of course is clearly yes. But you (1689) discounted this ability to desire freedom because such motivation is selfish, and then asked 'But is he leaving that sin to seek after God and to follow Him?' How is seeking God and following Him not motivated by self-interest? Selfless interest in the glory of God rather than one's own deliverance sounds an awful lot like a human merit contribution to salvation." To which 1689 replied, "Seeking God and following him is the desire to please and glorify God, not get yourself out of jail."
The people of God, old covenant and new covenant, are motivated by God Himself to faithfulness and obedience through the promise of reward and the threat of judgment. It hardly seems reasonable that unbelievers must be motivated only by "the desire to please and glorify God" and not to get themselves out of bondage, seek those blessings, and avoid those judgments, as 1689 seems to think.
Are you following the thought?
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
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If I am not found in Christ...yes.
Galatians 2:20-21
I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.
Romans 9:6-24
But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
Tsalagi, it ultimately comes down to whether God saves by a person's self-righteousness or whether God saves by unmerited grace. You are arguing for salvation by works as you argue that God loves sinners. Yet, God loves His Son and it is only in Christ that He loves you and me.
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