Marian Apparitions

[targus]

The rosary is not praying to God. It is magnifying Mary in the place of God. Nowhere in Scripture can you find such a prayer must be said IN ORDER TO BE saved as this demon taught!

OTH - no where is Scripture can you find the "sinners prayer" must be said in order to be saved either.

But how many Baptist churches use that formula in order to be saved?

I'm just saying...

 

[The Biblicist]

OTH - no where is Scripture can you find the "sinners prayer" must be said in order to be saved either.

But how many Baptist churches use that formula in order to be saved?

I'm just saying...

That is right! However, at least in the sinner's prayer you can find the gospel of Jesus Christ being presented. However, this demon promised to save people who merely repeated the rosary.

 

[The Biblicist]

Man - you don't even know what the rosary is. During each hail Mary, depending on the type of rosary, the person contemplates Jesus. Let's examine the sorowful mysteries for example.

There are five decades of the rosary. Each decade covers a mystery during which the person contemplates Jesus. Here they are in order.

The Second Sorrowful Mystery
THE AGONY IN THE GARDEN

Jesus comes with his disciples to Gethsemani: "Stay here, while I go yonder and pray."
Entering the garden with Peter, James, and John, Jesus prays, "My soul is sorrowful unto death."
Jesus sees the sins of all mankind, whose guilt He has taken upon Himself.
He sees the wrath of the Father which His sufferings must appease.
So great is his anguish that His sweat becomes as drops of blood falling to the ground.
An angel appears to Him from heaven to strengthen Him.
"Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet, not My will but Yours be done."
Finding the disciples asleep: "Could you not watch one hour with me?"
Jesus is betrayed by Judas, cruelly bound and led away.
Father, by the merits of the agony of Jesus in the Garden, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
Spiritual Fruit: God's Will be done


The Second Sorrowful Mystery
THE SCOURGING AT THE PILLAR

Jesus is taken before the High Priest where He is falsely accused, buffeted and insulted.
The Jewish leaders take Jesus before Pilate, for only he can impose the death penalty.
The robber, Barabbas, is preferred to Jesus.
Pilate can "find no cause in Him", yet to appease the Jews, he orders Jesus to be scourged.
The scourge is made of leather thongs to which are attached small sharp bones.
Jesus is bound to a pillar and cruelly scourged until His whole body is covered with deep wounds.
The Lamb of God offers His suffering for the sins of mankind.
Jesus suffers so much in His sacred flesh to satisfy, especially, for sins of the flesh.
The prophesy of Isaiah is fulfilled: "He was wounded for our iniquities, He was bruised for our sins."
Father, by the merits of Jesus in this painful scourging, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
Spiritual Fruit: Mortification of the senses

The Third Sorrowful Mystery
THE CROWNING WITH THORNS

Pilate asks, "Are You a king?" Jesus answers: "I am a King, but My kingdom is not of this world."
In the praetorium, the soldiers place an old purple robe on Jesus in mockery of His claim to be a king.
They fashion a crown out of thorns, and forcefully press it down upon His head.
In His bound hands they place a reed, as a sceptre, in mockery of His kingship.
Kneeling before Him in derision, they spit on Him, and cry out: "Hail, King of the Jews!"
Taking the reed from His hand they strike Him on the head, driving the thorns more deeply into His scalp.
Pilate brings Jesus before the people, hoping His pitiful sight will soften them: "Behold the man!"
Their response: "Crucify Him! Crucify Him!"
Our Blessed Lord submitted to this terrible humiliation to make reparation for our pride.
Father, by the merits of this painful humiliation, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
Spiritual Fruit: Reign of Christ in our heart


The Fourth Sorrowful Mystery
THE CARRYING OF THE CROSS

One condemned to death by crucifixion is forced to carry the cross to the place of execution.
The suffering of Jesus is intense as the cross is laid on His bruised and wounded back and shoulders.
Weak and exhausted from loss of blood, lack of food and rest, Jesus falls three times under the cross.
Jesus meets His afflicted Mother causing untold anguish in the Hearts of Son and Mother.
The countenance of Jesus is disfigured with blood and sweat, with dust and spittle.
Veronica wipes His face, leaving on her towel the image of His countenance.
Fearing that Jesus might die on the way, the soldiers force Simon of Cyrene to carry the cross behind Jesus.
Jesus speaks to weeping women; "Weep not for Me, but for yourselves and your children."
"If anyone is to be My disciple, let him take up his cross and follow Me."
Father, by the merits of this painful journey to Calvary, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
Spiritual Fruit: Patient bearing of trials

The Fifth Sorrowful Mystery
THE CRUCIFIXION

The hands and feet of Jesus are nailed to the cross in the presence of His afflicted Mother.
"Father, forgive them for they know not what they do."
"This day you will be with Me in paradise."
"Woman, behold your Son. Son, behold your Mother."
"My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?"
"I thirst."
"It is finished."
"Father, into Your hands I commend My spirit."
The side of Jesus is pierced with a lance. His body is taken down and placed in the arms of His Mother.
Father, by the merits of the crucifixion and death of Jesus, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
Spiritual Fruit: Pardoning of Injuries

Apparently, those poor dumb deceived Catholics are able to think about more than one thing at a time. It's called contemplative prayer and its ALL ABOUT JESUS.

WM

I have listened to the rosary and there are hail mary's intermittanly placed! Where are your hail Mary's????

 

[Zenas]

One thing I hear often on threads such as this is that the Bible says nothing about anyone praying to Mary or being told to pray to Mary. It sure doesn't but we must remember that Mary was still living on earth during most of the New Testament years. You can be sure that Mary offered many prayers for her fellow Christians during that time. Although the New Testament is silent on this point, it is most probable that Mary was sought out as a favorite prayer warrior in those days.

When she was taken to Heaven, there is no reason she would have stopped praying for others.

 

[The Biblicist]

That is right! However, at least in the sinner's prayer you can find the gospel of Jesus Christ being presented. However, this demon promised to save people who merely repeated the rosary.

How to recite the Holy Rosary

1. SAY THESE PRAYERS…

IN THE NAME of the Father, and of the
Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen. (As you
say this, with your right hand touch your
forehead when you say Father, touch your
breastbone when you say Son, touch your
left shoulder when you say Holy, and touch
your right shoulder when you say Spirit.)

I BELIEVE IN GOD, the Father almighty,
Creator of Heaven and earth. And in Jesus
Christ, His only Son, our Lord, Who was
conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the
Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate;
was crucified, died, and was buried. He
descended into Hell. The third day He rose
again from the dead. He ascended into
Heaven, and sits at the right hand of God,
the Father almighty. He shall come again to
judge the living and the dead. I believe in
the Holy Spirit, the holy Catholic Church,
the communion of saints, the forgiveness of
sins, the resurrection of the body, and life
everlasting. Amen.

OUR FATHER, Who art in Heaven,
hallowed be Thy Name. Thy kingdom
come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in
Heaven. Give us this day our daily bread,
and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive
those who trespass against us. And lead us
not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
Amen.

HAIL MARY, full of grace, the Lord is
with thee. Blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us
sinners, now and at the hour of our death.
Amen.

GLORY BE to the Father, and to the Son,
and to the Holy Spirit. As it was in the
beginning is now, and ever shall be, world
without end. Amen.

O MY JESUS, forgive us our sins, save us
from the fires of Hell; lead all souls to
Heaven, especially those in most need of
Thy mercy. Amen.

HAIL HOLY QUEEN, mother of mercy;
our life, our sweetness, and our hope. To
thee do we cry, poor banished children of
Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs,
mourning and weeping in this vale of tears.
Turn, then, most gracious advocate, thine
eyes of mercy toward us. And after this, our
exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy
womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet
Virgin Mary. Pray for us, O holy Mother of
God, that we may be made worthy of the
promises of Christ. Amen.

O GOD, WHOSE only-begotten Son by
His life, death and resurrection, has
purchased for us the rewards of eternal life;
grant, we beseech Thee, that by meditating
upon these mysteries of the Most Holy
Rosary of the Blessed Virgin Mary, we may
imitate what they contain and obtain what
they promise, through the same Christ our
Lord. Amen.

ANNOUNCE each mystery by saying
something like, “The third Joyful Mystery is
the Birth of Our Lord.” This is required only
when saying the Rosary in a group.


2. IN THIS ORDER…

INTRODUCTION
1. IN THE NAME…
2. I BELIEVE IN GOD…
3. OUR FATHER…
4. HAIL MARY…
5. HAIL MARY…
6. HAIL MARY…
7. GLORY BE…
8. O MY JESUS…
THE FIRST DECADE
9. ANNOUNCE…
10. OUR FATHER…
11. HAIL MARY…
12. HAIL MARY…
13. HAIL MARY…
14. HAIL MARY…
15. HAIL MARY…
16. HAIL MARY…
17. HAIL MARY…
18. HAIL MARY…
19. HAIL MARY…
20. HAIL MARY…
21. GLORY BE…
22. O MY JESUS…
THE SECOND DECADE
23. ANNOUNCE…
24. OUR FATHER…
25. HAIL MARY…
26. HAIL MARY…
27. HAIL MARY…
28. HAIL MARY…
29. HAIL MARY…
30. HAIL MARY…
31. HAIL MARY…
32. HAIL MARY…
33. HAIL MARY…
34. HAIL MARY…
35. GLORY BE…
36. O MY JESUS…
THE THIRD DECADE
37. ANNOUNCE…
38. OUR FATHER…
39. HAIL MARY…
40. HAIL MARY…
41. HAIL MARY…
42. HAIL MARY…
43. HAIL MARY…
44. HAIL MARY…
45. HAIL MARY…
46. HAIL MARY…
47. HAIL MARY…
48. HAIL MARY…
49. GLORY BE…
50. O MY JESUS…
THE FOURTH DECADE
51. ANNOUNCE…
52. OUR FATHER…
53. HAIL MARY…
54. HAIL MARY…
55. HAIL MARY…
56. HAIL MARY…
57. HAIL MARY…
58. HAIL MARY…
59. HAIL MARY…
60. HAIL MARY…
61. HAIL MARY…
62. HAIL MARY…
63. GLORY BE…
64. O MY JESUS…
THE FIFTH DECADE
65. ANNOUNCE…
66. OUR FATHER…
67. HAIL MARY…
68. HAIL MARY…
69. HAIL MARY…
70. HAIL MARY…
71. HAIL MARY…
72. HAIL MARY…
73. HAIL MARY…
74. HAIL MARY…
75. HAIL MARY…
76. HAIL MARY…
77. GLORY BE…
78. O MY JESUS…
CONCLUSION
79. HAIL HOLY QUEEN…
80. O GOD, WHOSE…
81. IN THE NAME…

3. WHILE TOUCHING THESE BEADS TO
KEEP TRACK OF YOUR PROGRESS…

4. AND SILENTLY MEDITATING ON THESE “MYSTERIES”,
OR EVENTS FROM THE LIVES OF JESUS AND MARY…

On Monday and Saturday, meditate on the “Joyful Mysteries”
First Decade (Steps 9-22): The Annunciation of Gabriel to Mary (Luke 1:26-38)
Second Decade (Steps 23-36): The Visitation of Mary to Elizabeth (Luke 1:39-56)
Third Decade (Steps 37-50): The Birth of Our Lord (Luke 2:1-21)
Fourth Decade (Steps 51-64): The Presentation of Our Lord (Luke 2:22-38)
Fifth Decade (Steps 65-78): The Finding of Our Lord in the Temple (Luke 2:41-52)

On Thursday, meditate on the “Luminous Mysteries”
First Decade: The Baptism of Our Lord in the River Jordan (Matthew 3:13-16)
Second Decade: The Wedding at Cana, when Christ manifested Himself (Jn 2:1-11)
Third Decade: The Proclamation of the Kingdom of God (Mark 1:14-15)
Fourth Decade: The Transfiguration of Our Lord (Matthew 17:1-8)
Fifth Decade: The Last Supper, when Our Lord gave us the Holy Eucharist (Mt 26)

On Tuesday and Friday, meditate on the “Sorrowful Mysteries”
First Decade: The Agony of Our Lord in the Garden (Matthew 26:36-56)
Second Decade: Our Lord is Scourged at the Pillar (Matthew 27:26)
Third Decade: Our Lord is Crowned with Thorns (Matthew 27:27-31)
Fourth Decade: Our Lord Carries the Cross to Calvary (Matthew 27:32)
Fifth Decade: The Crucifixion of Our Lord (Matthew 27:33-56)

On Wednesday and Sunday, meditate on the “Glorious Mysteries”
First Decade: The Glorious Resurrection of Our Lord (John 20:1-29)
Second Decade: The Ascension of Our Lord (Luke 24:36-53)
Third Decade: The Descent of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost (Acts 2:1-41)
Fourth Decade: The Assumption of Mary into Heaven
Fifth Decade: The Coronation of Mary as Queen of Heaven and Earth

 

[preacher4truth]

They are also downright creepy. Reading about all this Mary worship and apparitions gives me a bad feeling spiritually.

And I know why it makes you feel that way.

 

[Zenas]

Deleted because my post was redundant.

 

[preacher4truth]

One thing I hear often on threads such as this is that the Bible says nothing about anyone praying to Mary or being told to pray to Mary. It sure doesn't but we must remember that Mary was still living on earth during most of the New Testament years. You can be sure that Mary offered many prayers for her fellow Christians during that time. Although the New Testament is silent on this point, it is most probable that Mary was sought out as a favorite prayer warrior in those days.

When she was taken to Heaven, there is no reason she would have stopped praying for others.

More fairy tales. I bet you have more you could share. This is one reason I don't listen to your doctrine.

 

[WestminsterMan]

I have listened to the rosary and there are hail mary's intermittanly placed! Where are your hail Mary's????

You still don't understand contemplative prayer. The hail Mary is said each decade bead, but the person is contemplating each sorrow of Jesus. It's very Christocentric.

WM

 

[WestminsterMan]

How to recite the Holy Rosary

1. SAY THESE PRAYERS…

IN THE NAME of the Father, and of the
Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen. (As you
say this, with your right hand touch your
forehead when you say Father, touch your
breastbone when you say Son, touch your
left shoulder when you say Holy, and touch
your right shoulder when you say Spirit.)

I BELIEVE IN GOD, the Father almighty,
Creator of Heaven and earth. And in Jesus
Christ, His only Son, our Lord, Who was
conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the
Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate;
was crucified, died, and was buried. He
descended into Hell. The third day He rose
again from the dead. He ascended into
Heaven, and sits at the right hand of God,
the Father almighty. He shall come again to
judge the living and the dead. I believe in
the Holy Spirit, the holy Catholic Church,
the communion of saints, the forgiveness of
sins, the resurrection of the body, and life
everlasting. Amen.

OUR FATHER, Who art in Heaven,
hallowed be Thy Name. Thy kingdom
come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in
Heaven. Give us this day our daily bread,
and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive
those who trespass against us. And lead us
not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
Amen.

HAIL MARY, full of grace, the Lord is
with thee. Blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us
sinners, now and at the hour of our death.
Amen.

GLORY BE to the Father, and to the Son,
and to the Holy Spirit. As it was in the
beginning is now, and ever shall be, world
without end. Amen.

O MY JESUS, forgive us our sins, save us
from the fires of Hell; lead all souls to
Heaven, especially those in most need of
Thy mercy. Amen.

HAIL HOLY QUEEN, mother of mercy;
our life, our sweetness, and our hope. To
thee do we cry, poor banished children of
Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs,
mourning and weeping in this vale of tears.
Turn, then, most gracious advocate, thine
eyes of mercy toward us. And after this, our
exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy
womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet
Virgin Mary. Pray for us, O holy Mother of
God, that we may be made worthy of the
promises of Christ. Amen.

O GOD, WHOSE only-begotten Son by
His life, death and resurrection, has
purchased for us the rewards of eternal life;
grant, we beseech Thee, that by meditating
upon these mysteries of the Most Holy
Rosary of the Blessed Virgin Mary, we may
imitate what they contain and obtain what
they promise, through the same Christ our
Lord. Amen.

ANNOUNCE each mystery by saying
something like, “The third Joyful Mystery is
the Birth of Our Lord.” This is required only
when saying the Rosary in a group.


2. IN THIS ORDER…

INTRODUCTION
1. IN THE NAME…
2. I BELIEVE IN GOD…
3. OUR FATHER…
4. HAIL MARY…
5. HAIL MARY…
6. HAIL MARY…
7. GLORY BE…
8. O MY JESUS…
THE FIRST DECADE
9. ANNOUNCE…
10. OUR FATHER…
11. HAIL MARY…
12. HAIL MARY…
13. HAIL MARY…
14. HAIL MARY…
15. HAIL MARY…
16. HAIL MARY…
17. HAIL MARY…
18. HAIL MARY…
19. HAIL MARY…
20. HAIL MARY…
21. GLORY BE…
22. O MY JESUS…
THE SECOND DECADE
23. ANNOUNCE…
24. OUR FATHER…
25. HAIL MARY…
26. HAIL MARY…
27. HAIL MARY…
28. HAIL MARY…
29. HAIL MARY…
30. HAIL MARY…
31. HAIL MARY…
32. HAIL MARY…
33. HAIL MARY…
34. HAIL MARY…
35. GLORY BE…
36. O MY JESUS…
THE THIRD DECADE
37. ANNOUNCE…
38. OUR FATHER…
39. HAIL MARY…
40. HAIL MARY…
41. HAIL MARY…
42. HAIL MARY…
43. HAIL MARY…
44. HAIL MARY…
45. HAIL MARY…
46. HAIL MARY…
47. HAIL MARY…
48. HAIL MARY…
49. GLORY BE…
50. O MY JESUS…
THE FOURTH DECADE
51. ANNOUNCE…
52. OUR FATHER…
53. HAIL MARY…
54. HAIL MARY…
55. HAIL MARY…
56. HAIL MARY…
57. HAIL MARY…
58. HAIL MARY…
59. HAIL MARY…
60. HAIL MARY…
61. HAIL MARY…
62. HAIL MARY…
63. GLORY BE…
64. O MY JESUS…
THE FIFTH DECADE
65. ANNOUNCE…
66. OUR FATHER…
67. HAIL MARY…
68. HAIL MARY…
69. HAIL MARY…
70. HAIL MARY…
71. HAIL MARY…
72. HAIL MARY…
73. HAIL MARY…
74. HAIL MARY…
75. HAIL MARY…
76. HAIL MARY…
77. GLORY BE…
78. O MY JESUS…
CONCLUSION
79. HAIL HOLY QUEEN…
80. O GOD, WHOSE…
81. IN THE NAME…

3. WHILE TOUCHING THESE BEADS TO
KEEP TRACK OF YOUR PROGRESS…

4. AND SILENTLY MEDITATING ON THESE “MYSTERIES”,
OR EVENTS FROM THE LIVES OF JESUS AND MARY…

On Monday and Saturday, meditate on the “Joyful Mysteries”
First Decade (Steps 9-22): The Annunciation of Gabriel to Mary (Luke 1:26-38)
Second Decade (Steps 23-36): The Visitation of Mary to Elizabeth (Luke 1:39-56)
Third Decade (Steps 37-50): The Birth of Our Lord (Luke 2:1-21)
Fourth Decade (Steps 51-64): The Presentation of Our Lord (Luke 2:22-38)
Fifth Decade (Steps 65-78): The Finding of Our Lord in the Temple (Luke 2:41-52)

On Thursday, meditate on the “Luminous Mysteries”
First Decade: The Baptism of Our Lord in the River Jordan (Matthew 3:13-16)
Second Decade: The Wedding at Cana, when Christ manifested Himself (Jn 2:1-11)
Third Decade: The Proclamation of the Kingdom of God (Mark 1:14-15)
Fourth Decade: The Transfiguration of Our Lord (Matthew 17:1-8)
Fifth Decade: The Last Supper, when Our Lord gave us the Holy Eucharist (Mt 26)

On Tuesday and Friday, meditate on the “Sorrowful Mysteries”
First Decade: The Agony of Our Lord in the Garden (Matthew 26:36-56)
Second Decade: Our Lord is Scourged at the Pillar (Matthew 27:26)
Third Decade: Our Lord is Crowned with Thorns (Matthew 27:27-31)
Fourth Decade: Our Lord Carries the Cross to Calvary (Matthew 27:32)
Fifth Decade: The Crucifixion of Our Lord (Matthew 27:33-56)

On Wednesday and Sunday, meditate on the “Glorious Mysteries”
First Decade: The Glorious Resurrection of Our Lord (John 20:1-29)
Second Decade: The Ascension of Our Lord (Luke 24:36-53)
Third Decade: The Descent of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost (Acts 2:1-41)
Fourth Decade: The Assumption of Mary into Heaven
Fifth Decade: The Coronation of Mary as Queen of Heaven and Earth

You highlighted the verbal part. However, you are missing the mental part that you copied and pasted. As usual, you got about half of it correct. Now contemplate that.

WM

 

[The Biblicist]

You still don't understand contemplative prayer. The hail Mary is said each decade bead, but the person is contemplating each sorrow of Jesus. It's very Christocentric.

WM

I am not convert material! Sorry! Contemplating Christ does not save anyone. The demon at Fatima promised salvation for those merely saying the rosary.

 

[Alive in Christ]

This demon preaches "another gospel" of salvation than Jesus Christ. The gospel of saying the Rosary in order to go to heaven. Salvation promised to those who devote themself to her immaculate heart!

Exactally.

And world wide, the message of the demon is heeded, and propagated, world wide for centuries.

 

[WestminsterMan]

I am not convert material! Sorry! Contemplating Christ does not save anyone. The demon at Fatima promised salvation for those merely saying the rosary.

Hating someone never saved anyone either. Look - I'm not trying to bring anyone to conversion. I was, however, trying to bring you a little further along intellectually... Guess that was asking too much.

WM

 

[Bro. Curtis]

At it's very best, the rosary is vain repetition.

 

[Alive in Christ]

AmyG posted...

They are also downright creepy. Reading about all this Mary worship and apparitions gives me a bad feeling spiritually.

As it should for all who are spirtually alive and born of the Spirit.

Be at peace.

 

[WestminsterMan]

At it's very best, the rosary is vain repetition.

Have you said the Lord's prayer more than once?
Vain repetition.

Jesus repeated the same prayer in the garden multiple times.
Vain repetition.

Do you see how rediculous this idea is?

WM

 

[Bro. Curtis]

My chirch does not say that prayer.

It would be vain repetition.

But, just to be obstinant, got any verses of Jesus praying the rosary ?

:saint:

 

[targus]

That is right! However, at least in the sinner's prayer you can find the gospel of Jesus Christ being presented. However, this demon promised to save people who merely repeated the rosary.

And I have no doubt that many people that are told to pray the sinners prayer do and then never show up in a church again or make any changes to their life.

But they are told that they are saved and no amount of sinning will get them unsaved.

So it they think that they were saved by the "sinners prayer" but aren't and then go about their lives unchanged and unsaved even unto their death...

Why don't you consider that to be the work of demons?

 

[WestminsterMan]

My chirch does not say that prayer.

It would be vain repetition.

I see... The Lord's prayer taught to us by Jesus can only be said once, else it's vain repetition. Right...

But, just to be obstinant, got any verses of Jesus praying the rosary ?

:saint:

Hmmm... Got any verses of Jesus giving an alter call,
or having a wednesday night prayer meeting, or using the word Trinity, or using the phrase hypostatic union?

pluuueeezzze!

Well, let's see... Jesus taught us the Lord's prayer and that's part of the rosary. Does that count? Oh wait. Your church doesn't say the Lord's prayer because that would be vain repetition.

WM

 

[The Biblicist]

Why don't you consider that to be the work of demons?

The sinner's prayer (which I never use) does present Christ and the gospel. The Rosary repetitive emphasis is on Mary not Christ.

I have driven the I-5 in California listening to the Catholic Radio station while they pray the rosary and do their repetitive hail Mary's - It is pathetic!