Martial Arts?

[John of Japan]

Thank you all for your input, I have recently begun studying Hapkido and am really enjoying it but wanted to be sure that its not going to be a problem if there is any spiritual content, which I have not come across as yet.

This is one site that I have found helpful, not just for Hapkido but for Christian Martial Artists in general.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/United-Martial-Artists-for-Christ/128267703931549?ref=ts&fref=ts

Hapkido is a good art. I'm sure you'll enjoy it more and more as you progress. I've heard of a lot of Christians in Hapkido down through the years. Here is one such organization (I know little about them, but they've been around for awhile): http://www.hapkidokorea.org/Frame-3-teachersschoolspage3.html?refresh=1277421514385

Thanks for the link. I'll check it out.

 

[abcgrad94]

I don't know much about the other martial arts, but my dh and girls take Karate and it has done wonders for my youngest's ADD. Her focus and confidence has GREATLY improved since starting Karate. The instructor is a Christian and they don't do any Eastern meditation stuff--just the physical activity and physical and mental discipline. My girls enjoy this more than any other sport they've tried, including basketball and cheerleading. It's the only sport they have decided to stick with long-term.

 

[Havensdad]

is it true there are 'hard" arts such as karate that does not involve eastern views regarding spiritualis,, and 'soft' ones like Tai Chi that really empasis it?

Hi! I am a second degree black belt in Taekwondo, with training in Japanese Jiu Jitsu, Kali, and Muay Thai. I am also a former instructor.
John didn't address this, so let me.

First, "Hard" and "Soft" does not refer to whether or not there is a spiritual element involved in the art itself. It refers to the degree of force used to stop an attacker. "Hard styles" like Karate and Taekwondo, meet force with force.
"Soft" styles, attempt to redirect an opponents attack back against them, with the defender using next to no force of his own. Jiu Jitsu is a mix of hard and soft, while Aikido, its cousin, is a true soft style.

Most Christian martial artists I know practice either Taekwondo, or a non eastern "combative" (such as Krav Maga, from Israel...), because of the intrinsic eastern spirituality that is enmeshed in arts like Kung Fu.

 

[John of Japan]

Hi! I am a second degree black belt in Taekwondo, with training in Japanese Jiu Jitsu, Kali, and Muay Thai. I am also a former instructor.
John didn't address this, so let me.

First, "Hard" and "Soft" does not refer to whether or not there is a spiritual element involved in the art itself. It refers to the degree of force used to stop an attacker. "Hard styles" like Karate and Taekwondo, meet force with force.
"Soft" styles, attempt to redirect an opponents attack back against them, with the defender using next to no force of his own. Jiu Jitsu is a mix of hard and soft, while Aikido, its cousin, is a true soft style.

This is pretty well on target.

Most Christian martial artists I know practice either Taekwondo, or a non eastern "combative" (such as Krav Maga, from Israel...), because of the intrinsic eastern spirituality that is enmeshed in arts like Kung Fu.

What "intrinsic eastern spirituality" would that be? Any generalization about Chinese martial arts is bound to be off target.

I know many Christians who practice kung fu. And I know of many styles of kung fu with no eastern spirituality. (See above where I talk about the many different styles.) For example, I've trained in Wing Chun directly in the lineage of Bruce Lee's teacher Yip Man--no spirituality. I've worked out in Hong Kong with Christian Wing Chun instructors--no spirituality. I've trained in Tan Tui, which (along with Cha Ch'uan) is a style practiced and taught by the Chinese Muslims of N. China--no spirituality.

 

[Havensdad]

What "intrinsic eastern spirituality" would that be? Any generalization about Chinese martial arts is bound to be off target.

I know many Christians who practice kung fu. And I know of many styles of kung fu with no eastern spirituality. (See above where I talk about the many different styles.) For example, I've trained in Wing Chun directly in the lineage of Bruce Lee's teacher Yip Man--no spirituality. I've worked out in Hong Kong with Christian Wing Chun instructors--no spirituality. I've trained in Tan Tui, which (along with Cha Ch'uan) is a style practiced and taught by the Chinese Muslims of N. China--no spirituality.

John, I am not going to debate this with you, because your experience far exceeds mine. I am speaking strictly from experience in terms of what I have observed, and discussions I have had with other Christian martial artists. I have yet to meet a Kung Fu instructor whose curriculum was not based on Eastern spirituality; Yin/Yang, Chi, etc., to a point of being almost inseparable. But if you say there are styles that do not incorporate such, I believe you. I just have not encountered such a thing in the West.

 

[John of Japan]

John, I am not going to debate this with you, because your experience far exceeds mine. I am speaking strictly from experience in terms of what I have observed, and discussions I have had with other Christian martial artists. I have yet to meet a Kung Fu instructor whose curriculum was not based on Eastern spirituality; Yin/Yang, Chi, etc., to a point of being almost inseparable. But if you say there are styles that do not incorporate such, I believe you. I just have not encountered such a thing in the West.

There are definitely styles which have Eastern spirituality in them, especially American kung fu teachers in the Shaolin tradition who swallow the Buddhist nonsense, and internal art teachers (Pa Kua, Hsing I & Tai Chi) who major on the bogus Taoist chi theory.

By the way, Zen is the worst, and there are some American kung fu people who swallow the idea that Zen produces peace. In reality, Zen meditation is a very stressful activity in a real Buddhist temple. Some ladies my wife taught English to years ago told her about an American young man who came to learn meditation at a Zen temple and couldn't take it. He ended up with a nervous breakdown, headed back to the States.

Having said that, kung fu styles and schools should be taken individually, not collectively. Each style is unique. There are many Christian kung fu instructors both in Asia and America. But I will admit that the Korean styles are more likely not to include Asian spirituality. This may be because Korea is about 45% Christian now.

That brings up the point that a punch is a punch and a kick iis a kick--they are physical, not spiritual. So a martial arts instructor will bring his spirituality to his art. If he is a Buddhist he will practice as a Buddhist, and a Christian will bring his Christianity to his martial art.

 

[Yeshua1]

Hi! I am a second degree black belt in Taekwondo, with training in Japanese Jiu Jitsu, Kali, and Muay Thai. I am also a former instructor.
John didn't address this, so let me.

First, "Hard" and "Soft" does not refer to whether or not there is a spiritual element involved in the art itself. It refers to the degree of force used to stop an attacker. "Hard styles" like Karate and Taekwondo, meet force with force.
"Soft" styles, attempt to redirect an opponents attack back against them, with the defender using next to no force of his own. Jiu Jitsu is a mix of hard and soft, while Aikido, its cousin, is a true soft style.

Most Christian martial artists I know practice either Taekwondo, or a non eastern "combative" (such as Krav Maga, from Israel...), because of the intrinsic eastern spirituality that is enmeshed in arts like Kung Fu.

is it that trhere is bulit into each martial art system a 'religious component?

That there are none neautral, some christian based, others non?

Does it matter on teacher also, as say a Chuck Norris teaches his style froma christian viewpoint, while a Steven segal from Buddhist view?

 

[Jkdbuck76]

Don't get me started on Steven Seagal.

John is correct: look at the individual case.

Zen is tough. It is NOT NOT NOT at all like what is seen on the TV series "Kung Fu".

If someone wants Zen, then they should be prepared to be screamed at by their Zen master. Literally.

Hapkido: remember, in most Korean martial arts, they will try to tell you that their Korean arts (which looks like many Japanese styles) is 3,000 years old. What I'm saying is that if you don't get spiritual lies, you'll get historical lies. Kuk Sool Won (a sister/offshoot of Hapkido) perpetuates this myth. But I'll shut my mouth.

The best time I ever had was in Jeet Kune Do Concepts.

 

[Yeshua1]

Don't get me started on Steven Seagal.

John is correct: look at the individual case.

Zen is tough. It is NOT NOT NOT at all like what is seen on the TV series "Kung Fu".

If someone wants Zen, then they should be prepared to be screamed at by their Zen master. Literally.

Hapkido: remember, in most Korean martial arts, they will try to tell you that their Korean arts (which looks like many Japanese styles) is 3,000 years old. What I'm saying is that if you don't get spiritual lies, you'll get historical lies. Kuk Sool Won (a sister/offshoot of Hapkido) perpetuates this myth. But I'll shut my mouth.

The best time I ever had was in Jeet Kune Do Concepts.

My brother for awhile was in Judo, is that considered a martial art?

and were Chuck Norris/bruce lee/Steven segal real martial artists, or were they hollywood hype?

 

[Havensdad]

Hapkido: remember, in most Korean martial arts, they will try to tell you that their Korean arts (which looks like many Japanese styles) is 3,000 years old. What I'm saying is that if you don't get spiritual lies, you'll get historical lies. Kuk Sool Won (a sister/offshoot of Hapkido) perpetuates this myth. But I'll shut my mouth.

Yeah....

First, I do a traditional (non-sport) version of Taekwondo. Pre-sport Taekwondo looks NOTHING like the Japanese hard styles. There is some resemblance with the post 1945 sport styles that developed.

Second, I am not aware of any Korean that claims that their art is 3000 years old. The art DOES have its origins in the 6th century A.D. (about 1400 years), and we do have drawings from this time to confirm this; some of the techniques we use today are shown plainly. However, just like ALL martial arts, it evolved over time. Most of the arts extant in Korea, are either sport forms developed during the middle of the 20th century, from older arts, or traditional forms which have a much older history and can be traced, at minimum, through the Choson dynasty.

 

[John of Japan]

This was addressed to Jkdbuck76, but I trust he doesn't mind my input.

My brother for awhile was Judo, is that considered a martial art?

Yes, judo is considered a martial art around the globe. However, within Japan the martial arts are divided into two categories: martial ways (-do) and martial arts (-jutsu). The martial ways are either martial arts turned into martial sports or self-defense arts. So, judo is a sport created from jujutsu, which was the empty hand fighting art of the samurai. Kendo is a sport created from kenjutsu, which was the samurai method of fighting with a real sword. Aikido is a self-defense art created from aikijutsu, a form of jujutsu.

Having said that, judo started out as a strong method of jujutsu, complete with striking and kicking techniques which were not allowed in the sport form. Many Japanese MMA fighters including, several Olympic gold medalists, started with a base of judo and added striking techniques.

and were Chuck Norris/bruce lee/Steven segal real martial artists, or were they hollywood hype?

Chuck Norris was a well known national karate champion on the tournament circuit in the 1970s, around the time I was competing as a brown belt. His martial art is his own version of the Korean art of Tang Su Do, and he is a fervent Christian.

Segal is an expert in aikido, which shows up in his movies (which I don't like and have only seen one or two of) when he flips someone, but not when he punches and kicks, etc., since those are not aikido techniques.

 

[thomas15]

Hi! I am a second degree black belt in Taekwondo, with training in Japanese Jiu Jitsu, Kali, and Muay Thai. I am also a former instructor.
John didn't address this, so let me.

First, "Hard" and "Soft" does not refer to whether or not there is a spiritual element involved in the art itself. It refers to the degree of force used to stop an attacker. "Hard styles" like Karate and Taekwondo, meet force with force.
"Soft" styles, attempt to redirect an opponents attack back against them, with the defender using next to no force of his own. Jiu Jitsu is a mix of hard and soft, while Aikido, its cousin, is a true soft style.

Most Christian martial artists I know practice either Taekwondo, or a non eastern "combative" (such as Krav Maga, from Israel...), because of the intrinsic eastern spirituality that is enmeshed in arts like Kung Fu.

I likewise have BB in TKD. Time management has kept me from it for the past few years.

 

[Yeshua1]

This was addressed to Jkdbuck76, but I trust he doesn't mind my input.
Yes, judo is considered a martial art around the globe. However, within Japan the martial arts are divided into two categories: martial ways (-do) and martial arts (-jutsu). The martial ways are either martial arts turned into martial sports or self-defense arts. So, judo is a sport created from jujutsu, which was the empty hand fighting art of the samurai. Kendo is a sport created from kenjutsu, which was the samurai method of fighting with a real sword. Aikido is a self-defense art created from aikijutsu, a form of jujutsu.

Having said that, judo started out as a strong method of jujutsu, complete with striking and kicking techniques which were not allowed in the sport form. Many Japanese MMA fighters including, several Olympic gold medalists, started with a base of judo and added striking techniques.

Chuck Norris was a well known national karate champion on the tournament circuit in the 1970s, around the time I was competing as a brown belt. His martial art is his own version of the Korean art of Tang Su Do, and he is a fervent Christian.

Segal is an expert in aikido, which shows up in his movies (which I don't like and have only seen one or two of) when he flips someone, but not when he punches and kicks, etc., since those are not aikido techniques.

So you would see martial Arts as being OK, provoding that the main purpose is to stay in shape, self-defense etc, but NOT if have to get into the actual philosophy behind some of them, as in 'enlightenment/becoming one with universe" stuff?

 

[Jkdbuck76]

So you would see martial Arts as being OK, provoding that the main purpose is to stay in shape, self-defense etc, but NOT if have to get into the actual philosophy behind some of them, as in 'enlightenment/becoming one with universe" stuff?

For me? Yes! I don't need ki meditation techniques. I don't need mystical anting-antings to know if my stickfighting is up to par. John of Japan doesn't need to make an offering of rice (no pun intended) to his ancestors in order to be a better martial artist. I want NOTHING to do with the spiritual mumbo-jumbo offered by so many wannabe Asians who teach martial arts. Nothing grinds my gears like listening to some overweight caucazoid go on about how inferior the "western mind" is, etc etc etc.

==================
Here's a funny question. What if you wanted to study SAMBO from a bunch of Russians and after training, they started talking about the Eastern Orthodox faith? Would you still train with them? This is open to everybody, BTW.


EDIT: to John of Japan--- Jigoro Kano was awesome! And what he really did with the grappling arts was the same thing Bruce Lee did 80 years later. Jigoro Kano became the grand champion in grappling by doing a "fireman's carry"---a technique known only to Western wrestling and he supposedly learned it from a book.....is that correct?

 

[Yeshua1]

For me? Yes! I don't need ki meditation techniques. I don't need mystical anting-antings to know if my stickfighting is up to par. John of Japan doesn't need to make an offering of rice (no pun intended) to his ancestors in order to be a better martial artist. I want NOTHING to do with the spiritual mumbo-jumbo offered by so many wannabe Asians who teach martial arts. Nothing grinds my gears like listening to some overweight caucazoid go on about how inferior the "western mind" is, etc etc etc.

==================
Here's a funny question. What if you wanted to study SAMBO from a bunch of Russians and after training, they started talking about the Eastern Orthodox faith? Would you still train with them? This is open to everybody, BTW.


EDIT: to John of Japan--- Jigoro Kano was awesome! And what he really did with the grappling arts was the same thing Bruce Lee did 80 years later. Jigoro Kano became the grand champion in grappling by doing a "fireman's carry"---a technique known only to Western wrestling and he supposedly learned it from a book.....is that correct?

Are boxing/wrestling considered to be the 'western" martial arts?

And what would be considered the 'deadilist" martial art to learn?

 

[Havensdad]

Are boxing/wrestling considered to be the 'western" martial arts?

And what would be considered the 'deadilist" martial art to learn?

Both of these questions are subjective. Different people will have different answers. In terms of #1, I would say yes. In terms of #2 I would say either Japanese Jiu Jitsu, or Krav Maga. Both of those arts (though Krav Maga is considered a "combative" technically) are EXTREMELY brutal.

I know in Jiu Jitsu, the goal is to utterly destroy your opponent. You spend a large amount of time purposely causing pain to your partner (back and forth), and seeing how long each of you can take it before you give in.

 

[Yeshua1]

Both of these questions are subjective. Different people will have different answers. In terms of #1, I would say yes. In terms of #2 I would say either Japanese Jiu Jitsu, or Krav Maga. Both of those arts (though Krav Maga is considered a "combative" technically) are EXTREMELY brutal.

I know in Jiu Jitsu, the goal is to utterly destroy your opponent. You spend a large amount of time purposely causing pain to your partner (back and forth), and seeing how long each of you can take it before you give in.

why wouldn't more passive styles though be able to counter and deflect that type?

read that Churck norris would get tied up in contest with those who knew Judo, and once grabbed him and pulled him down, Karate was no good, so went and got a brown belt in Judo to learn how to grapple!

just asking,a s there is a chrsitian Dojo in area that practices a style of passive reactionary, and seems to have a counter to thsoe trying to hit/strike first!

 

[John of Japan]

So you would see martial Arts as being OK, provoding that the main purpose is to stay in shape, self-defense etc, but NOT if have to get into the actual philosophy behind some of them, as in 'enlightenment/becoming one with universe" stuff?

That is correct. The martial arts can not only be beneficial in these ways, they can be used to serve God. My son followed in my footsteps in college and led a martial arts evangelistic team, Kung fu Influencing Kids for the King, KIKS, and saw many saved and helped. (My college team was Kung Fu for Christ.)

 

[Havensdad]

why wouldn't more passive styles though be able to counter and deflect that type?

read that Churck norris would get tied up in contest with those who knew Judo, and once grabbed him and pulled him down, Karate was no good, so went and got a brown belt in Judo to learn how to grapple!

just asking,a s there is a chrsitian Dojo in area that practices a style of passive reactionary, and seems to have a counter to thsoe trying to hit/strike first!

Both Judo and Aikido are derivatives of Japanese Jujitsu; in fact, I would say they are "watered down" versions. Rare would be the Aikido or Judo (especially Judo, which is more sport oriented) practitioners, who would hold their own against one who is competent in jiu Jitsu, at least in my opinion and personal experience. I have watched as an 80 year old Jiu Jitsu master who could barely walk, devastated a room full of MMA guys (all black belts), (myself included).

Jiu Jitsu practitioners are known for practicing at near full force. During my training in Jiu Jitsu, I was frequently punched and kicked bare knuckled/footed. I was thrown about, had tendons and ligaments strained right to the point of breaking, and spilled a good deal of blood. Out of the 50 or so people that came and went in that class over the years, only me and two friends made any advancement; most people would quit after one class. The art is absolutely brutal, and I believe is far superior to say, the Taekwondo which I have much more experience in...

 

[John of Japan]

Both Judo and Aikido are derivatives of Japanese Jujitsu; in fact, I would say they are "watered down" versions. Rare would be the Aikido or Judo (especially Judo, which is more sport oriented) practitioners, who would hold their own against one who is competent in jiu Jitsu, at least in my opinion and personal experience. I have watched as an 80 year old Jiu Jitsu master who could barely walk, devastated a room full of MMA guys (all black belts), (myself included).

Jiu Jitsu practitioners are known for practicing at near full force. During my training in Jiu Jitsu, I was frequently punched and kicked bare knuckled/footed. I was thrown about, had tendons and ligaments strained right to the point of breaking, and spilled a good deal of blood. Out of the 50 or so people that came and went in that class over the years, only me and two friends made any advancement; most people would quit after one class. The art is absolutely brutal, and I believe is far superior to say, the Taekwondo which I have much more experience in...

Great post, and right on target. You've obviously had much more training in jujutsu than I have, but if you're interested in a scholarly treatment of the samurai origins of the art, Classical Fighting Arts of Japan (subtitle, "A Complete Guide to Koryu Jujutsu") by Serge Mol is excellent. Unfortunately, I see on Amazon that it is apparently out of print and selling used for large amounts of cash, but maybe you can find it elsewhere cheaper.