Martial Arts?

[Yeshua1]

Both Judo and Aikido are derivatives of Japanese Jujitsu; in fact, I would say they are "watered down" versions. Rare would be the Aikido or Judo (especially Judo, which is more sport oriented) practitioners, who would hold their own against one who is competent in jiu Jitsu, at least in my opinion and personal experience. I have watched as an 80 year old Jiu Jitsu master who could barely walk, devastated a room full of MMA guys (all black belts), (myself included).

Jiu Jitsu practitioners are known for practicing at near full force. During my training in Jiu Jitsu, I was frequently punched and kicked bare knuckled/footed. I was thrown about, had tendons and ligaments strained right to the point of breaking, and spilled a good deal of blood. Out of the 50 or so people that came and went in that class over the years, only me and two friends made any advancement; most people would quit after one class. The art is absolutely brutal, and I believe is far superior to say, the Taekwondo which I have much more experience in...

isn't that style a passive/reactive art form though?
As I think that was what the chrsitian Black belts were showing us in church as an exhibition, as all of their attacks were based upon countering the strikes/blows of others coming at them, as they had a BB in karate as the onr to kick and ounch at them, and he kept dodging and flipping the karate person out on his back!

 

[Jkdbuck76]

Are boxing/wrestling considered to be the 'western" martial arts?

And what would be considered the 'deadilist" martial art to learn?

I don't know. I know that boxing and wrestling are sports. But I'll say this: I believe a boxer has a better "platform" or "skill set" for self defense than someone who does nothing but compliant-partner training.

I mean, I'd rather get in a scrap with someone who has 100 hours of chi sao than I would with someone who has sparred/boxed for 100 hours.

Which art is deadliest? I don't have an answer. Maybe there is a better question to ask like "which art is currently used by the military?" I studied JKD Concepts. My instructor was a student of Paul Vunak (who taught the SEALS) and Larry Hartsell (who was a personal student of Bruce Lee and Dan Inosanto). So we learned grappling, trapping, boxing, kickboxing, stickfighting and Paul Vunak gave us Rapid Assault Tactics. I think the SICKEST art is Turkish oil wrestling. Don't g**gle it.

 

[Havensdad]

isn't that style a passive/reactive art form though?
As I think that was what the chrsitian Black belts were showing us in church as an exhibition, as all of their attacks were based upon countering the strikes/blows of others coming at them, as they had a BB in karate as the onr to kick and ounch at them, and he kept dodging and flipping the karate person out on his back!

Japanese Jiu Jitsu is both defensive and offensive. This is where it differs from Aikido. Aikido is based on full circle motions, where Jiu Jitsu cuts the "circle" in half, and finishes with a strike or a break.

Imagine someone grabs you from behind, so you perform a shoulder throw, which is common in Aikido and Judo. In Aikido (typically...no two instructors are exactly alike), the throw would be a full circle, and your opponent would be thrown to the ground. You would back off, and be ready should he attack again. It is very passive, and is meant to keep you, and your opponent, from getting hurt.

Jiu Jitsu is not so nice. Rather than a simple shoulder throw, you would drive your elbow into your opponents sternum, side step under his arm, simultaneously locking his wrist and arm into a vertical position. You START to throw him forward with a circular motion, but halfway through you cut the circle, and send your opponent teeth first into the floor. You have never let go of his arm (First rule of Jiu Jitsu...NEVER let there be space between you and your opponent!) and in fact as he falls, you also fall and roll...right onto his elbow, snapping his arm and breaking it. You then twist his broken arm, and use the broken elbow joint to force him to submit.

 

[Yeshua1]

Japanese Jiu Jitsu is both defensive and offensive. This is where it differs from Aikido. Aikido is based on full circle motions, where Jiu Jitsu cuts the "circle" in half, and finishes with a strike or a break.

Imagine someone grabs you from behind, so you perform a shoulder throw, which is common in Aikido and Judo. In Aikido (typically...no two instructors are exactly alike), the throw would be a full circle, and your opponent would be thrown to the ground. You would back off, and be ready should he attack again. It is very passive, and is meant to keep you, and your opponent, from getting hurt.

Jiu Jitsu is not so nice. Rather than a simple shoulder throw, you would drive your elbow into your opponents sternum, side step under his arm, simultaneously locking his wrist and arm into a vertical position. You START to throw him forward with a circular motion, but halfway through you cut the circle, and send your opponent teeth first into the floor. You have never let go of his arm (First rule of Jiu Jitsu...NEVER let there be space between you and your opponent!) and in fact as he falls, you also fall and roll...right onto his elbow, snapping his arm and breaking it. You then twist his broken arm, and use the broken elbow joint to force him to submit.

should chrsitians get involved with something like that?
Aren't we to do minimum damage viewpoint, what it takes to disable another mainly in oder to keep us or others safe?

 

[Jkdbuck76]

should chrsitians get involved with something like that?
Aren't we to do minimum damage viewpoint, what it takes to disable another mainly in oder to keep us or others safe?

Sometimes one must kill in order to protect oneself or one's family.

I hope I never have to find out for real, but I'll say this: I have NO QUALMS about using deadly force to protect myself or my family. Now think about Law Enforcement Officers: they take courses in "deadly force" (ie, when to use it, how to use it). And they may have to use deadly force to protect complete strangers. Could you do that? I don't know if I could.... Kudos to the law enforcement community.

One of the easiest ways to kill someone barehanded? Rear naked choke and hold it for 2 minutes or more. But then you'd have to explain to a judge and 12 jurors of your peers why you felt it necessary to maintain a blood choke long after someone was incapacitated.

I don't know where I'm going with this.... But I don't believe that we as Christians need to seek out so-called "gentle" arts. King David sought out several huge stones to slay Goliath, he didn't pickup a water balloon.

 

[Yeshua1]

Sometimes one must kill in order to protect oneself or one's family.

I hope I never have to find out for real, but I'll say this: I have NO QUALMS about using deadly force to protect myself or my family. Now think about Law Enforcement Officers: they take courses in "deadly force" (ie, when to use it, how to use it). And they may have to use deadly force to protect complete strangers. Could you do that? I don't know if I could.... Kudos to the law enforcement community.

One of the easiest ways to kill someone barehanded? Rear naked choke and hold it for 2 minutes or more. But then you'd have to explain to a judge and 12 jurors of your peers why you felt it necessary to maintain a blood choke long after someone was incapacitated.

I don't know where I'm going with this.... But I don't believe that we as Christians need to seek out so-called "gentle" arts. King David sought out several huge stones to slay Goliath, he didn't pickup a water balloon.

not against becoming skilled in martial arts, but why get into those whose intended purpose seems to be to "pile it on?"

 

[Havensdad]

not against becoming skilled in martial arts, but why get into those whose intended purpose seems to be to "pile it on?"

Because this is the real world. Aikido and arts like it, are idealistic. They are based on very narrow, perfect scenarios. But in the real world, things don't usually go as planned...

If someone is attacking you, and you are not only defending yourself, but possibly your wife, your kids, etc., the LAST thing on your mind should be to protect your assailant.

Jiu Jitsu, and the other more "brutal" arts, are not meant to punish people, only to make 100 percent sure that you stop your attacker quickly and proficiently. Much better to snap a guys arm, than worrying about him overpowering you, or getting a lucky shot, and then him turning to your wife or kids...

 

[John of Japan]

Because this is the real world. Aikido and arts like it, are idealistic. They are based on very narrow, perfect scenarios. But in the real world, things don't usually go as planned...

If someone is attacking you, and you are not only defending yourself, but possibly your wife, your kids, etc., the LAST thing on your mind should be to protect your assailant.

Jiu Jitsu, and the other more "brutal" arts, are not meant to punish people, only to make 100 percent sure that you stop your attacker quickly and proficiently. Much better to snap a guys arm, than worrying about him overpowering you, or getting a lucky shot, and then him turning to your wife or kids...

Well said.

 

[Luke2427]

Are boxing/wrestling considered to be the 'western" martial arts?

And what would be considered the 'deadilist" martial art to learn?

Wrestling.

No great boxer will ever beat a great wrestler.

No Karate or Muay Thai fighter stands a chance against a wrestler unless they have very good wrestling defense themselves- and that is not easy to develop.

The only fighting style that comes close is Brazilian Jiu Jitsu but with a little submission defense training added, the wrestler still has a significant advantage.

Wrestlers dominate the UFC with few exceptions.

Now all of that is a bit over-simplistic today, because few fighters are sticking strictly to their styles. Wrestlers have to learn a good deal of stand-up to be relevant. ALL fighting styles have to add a good bit of wrestling in order to be relevant.

But if you set a pure fighting style against another, I think wrestling (greco-roman or shoot) is the most effective.

 

[Havensdad]

Wrestling.

No great boxer will ever beat a great wrestler.

No Karate or Muay Thai fighter stands a chance against a wrestler unless they have very good wrestling defense themselves- and that is not easy to develop.

The only fighting style that comes close is Brazilian Jiu Jitsu but with a little submission defense training added, the wrestler still has a significant advantage.

Wrestlers dominate the UFC with few exceptions.

Now all of that is a bit over-simplistic today, because few fighters are sticking strictly to their styles. Wrestlers have to learn a good deal of stand-up to be relevant. ALL fighting styles have to add a good bit of wrestling in order to be relevant.

But if you set a pure fighting style against another, I think wrestling (greco-roman or shoot) is the most effective.

Yeah, not a chance. Though wrestling is most dominant in the UFC, in terms of the number of people that do that art, the percentage of wins to number of participants favors GREATLY Brazilian Jiu Jitsu (which is a derivative of Japanese Jiu Jitsu minus stand up strikes and throws), and, for that matter, Muay Thai.

Secondly, even the wrestlers do not use western/Greco Roman techniques to win....they use eastern style submission techniques, and locks. Couture and Coleman were both great examples of this...

Third, even UFC is not a street fight. The LAST thing you want to do in a real confrontation, is take them to the ground. Yes, you want ground techniques in your arsenal, but you want to fight going to the ground if at ALL possible. There is no referee to stop the fight. There are often knives or other weapons that come out of pockets when people start rolling around on the ground. The guys buddies get a chance to level their feet into your sides. Wrestling is somewhat effective in the ring; almost completely useless on the street.

The most effective self defense technique for someone who does not have a lot of time, is basic boxing skills (if you do have a lot of time to train, Jiu Jitsu, of the Japanese variety, or Krav Maga). If you know how to throw a strong fast punch, and how to avoid one, you are in fairly good shape...

 

[Luke2427]

Yeah, not a chance. Though wrestling is most dominant in the UFC, in terms of the number of people that do that art, the percentage of wins to number of participants favors GREATLY Brazilian Jiu Jitsu (which is a derivative of Japanese Jiu Jitsu minus stand up strikes and throws), and, for that matter, Muay Thai.

Secondly, even the wrestlers do not use western/Greco Roman techniques to win....they use eastern style submission techniques, and locks. Couture and Coleman were both great examples of this...

Third, even UFC is not a street fight. The LAST thing you want to do in a real confrontation, is take them to the ground. Yes, you want ground techniques in your arsenal, but you want to fight going to the ground if at ALL possible. There is no referee to stop the fight. There are often knives or other weapons that come out of pockets when people start rolling around on the ground. The guys buddies get a chance to level their feet into your sides. Wrestling is somewhat effective in the ring; almost completely useless on the street.

The most effective self defense technique for someone who does not have a lot of time, is basic boxing skills (if you do have a lot of time to train, Jiu Jitsu, of the Japanese variety, or Krav Maga). If you know how to throw a strong fast punch, and how to avoid one, you are in fairly good shape...

You could not be more wrong on almost everything you said here, but especially the last statement.

There may not BE a fighting style lower on the totem pole than boxing.

I have been in numerous fights myself and have seen a bunch more up close and personal. If a fight lasts any length of time it almost always goes to the ground and the guy who is able to wind up on top wins.

It is not just my opinion that wrestling is the most valuable art in MMA, btw. It is commonly known. Joe Rogan and others speak about it as fact and few dispute it.

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is great too, though. It is probably number two. It was when wrestlers learned how to deal with Gracie that wrestling began to dominate and it has ever since.

Even guys whose base was not in wrestling have turned to it for their primary fighting style. GSP is a good example of that.

Outside of Anderson Silva, pretty much EVERY UFC champion is first and foremost a wrestler.

And the UFC is the closest thing we have to a street fight. If somebody pulls a knife, you're in bad shape no matter what style you have- so that issue is irrelevant.

 

[Havensdad]

You could not be more wrong on almost everything you said here, but especially the last statement.

There may not BE a fighting style lower on the totem pole than boxing.

I cannot count the number of times I have seen a boxer level a guy trying to take him to the ground.

Wrestling, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, and other ground arts, take extensive training to be proficient. Training two weapons, your fists, is MUCH better if you don't have the time to put in. Good training in a narrow field, is better than a little in a bunch of different fields.

I have been in numerous fights myself and have seen a bunch more up close and personal. If a fight lasts any length of time it almost always goes to the ground and the guy who is able to wind up on top wins.

I have participated in countless tournaments, street fights, and Full contact matches in the ring (including one which was televised on ESPN2...my own little claim to fame). I taught Martial arts for years, have belts in Japanese Jiu Jitsu and Taekwondo, as well as studying various other arts...

Let me say: you must be experienced in seeing untrained fighters fight. I have seen enraged, unbalanced people take someone to the ground in a fight. The only time I have seen it succeed, is when the person on the receiving end was unskilled. When the person is skilled, you generally don't see a take down; you see the person taking a knee to the teeth, or a punch to the nose, or an elbow to the back of the neck... all what we call "fight ending" techniques.

It is not just my opinion that wrestling is the most valuable art in MMA, btw. It is commonly known. Joe Rogan and others speak about it as fact and few dispute it.

I have NEVER heard Joe Rogan say that Wrestling, speaking of Western style Greco Roman wrestling (rather than Eastern styles), is the most valuable art. He might have used the term in a generic way to refer to ones ground game, and that has truth, IN UFC....not in a street fight.

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is great too, though. It is probably number two. It was when wrestlers learned how to deal with Gracie that wrestling began to dominate and it has ever since.

No, it hasn't. If you look at the most recent champions in the UFC, the most prevalent arts are #1 Eastern Grappling styles, with Muay Thai and Wrestling close seconds... Anderson Silva (current champion), George St. Pierre (current Champ), Benson Henderson (current champ), Jose Aldo (current Champ), Renan Barao (current champ), Cain Velasquez (Current Champ), etc....ALL have Brazilian Jiu Jitsu in their repertoire.

In fact, their is ONLY one current UFC champ, Jon Jones, who has Greco Roman Wrestling as his primary artform. About HALF of the current UFC champs have no prior training in wrestling, by comparison. If you look at any one weight division, say Heavy weight, and just look at the last five champions, in EVERY case, Jiu Jitsu is seen more than any other art. Junior Dos Santos (boxing and Jiu Jitsu), Shane Carwin (boxing, but also Jiu Jitsu and wrestling), Frank Mir (Karate and Jiu Jitsu).

The list goes on and on. When it comes to WINNING, Jiu Jitsu has the other forms beat.

And as far as Gracie...they didn't "learn how to deal with him"...he got old and broken. This lifestyle takes a toll on you. Just ask my knees and my back!

Even guys whose base was not in wrestling have turned to it for their primary fighting style. GSP is a good example of that.

George Saint Pierre (Who I assume you refer to here) does NOT win by using GR wrestling! Saint Pierre wins most by TKO, utilizing ground striking techniques, that are decidedly NOT from Greco Roman Wrestling... (which does not have ground striking). That is Eastern art, my friend.

Outside of Anderson Silva, pretty much EVERY UFC champion is first and foremost a wrestler.

As I have listed above...that is simply not the case. THE most common denominator among the champions, is Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. And striking ability, with the hands, is the number one tool used to win...

And the UFC is the closest thing we have to a street fight. If somebody pulls a knife, you're in bad shape no matter what style you have- so that issue is irrelevant.

That is simply not true. A knife is relatively easy to defend against, from a standing position. But on the ground, it is impossible. Ground fighting also leaves you vulnerable to additional assailants. And UFC, as it is now, is neither close to a street fight, nor is it even the closest thing we have. There are true "No holds barred" MMA tournaments, that are much closer to the real thing...

 

[Luke2427]

I cannot count the number of times I have seen a boxer level a guy trying to take him to the ground.

Wrestling, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, and other ground arts, take extensive training to be proficient. Training two weapons, your fists, is MUCH better if you don't have the time to put in. Good training in a narrow field, is better than a little in a bunch of different fields.

Boxers are taken down instantaneously in MMA fights. Randy Couture was pressing 50 when he whooped the snot out of decorated and famous boxer James Toney.

I have participated in countless tournaments, street fights, and Full contact matches in the ring (including one which was televised on ESPN2...my own little claim to fame). I taught Martial arts for years, have belts in Japanese Jiu Jitsu and Taekwondo, as well as studying various other arts...

None of this changes facts. The best test tube we have had since the ancient Olympics is MMA. Boxers get the snot whooped out of them every time they enter the ring or octagon.

Let me say: you must be experienced in seeing untrained fighters fight. I have seen enraged, unbalanced people take someone to the ground in a fight. The only time I have seen it succeed, is when the person on the receiving end was unskilled. When the person is skilled, you generally don't see a take down; you see the person taking a knee to the teeth, or a punch to the nose, or an elbow to the back of the neck... all what we call "fight ending" techniques.

Skill in what? Wait for it- wrestling. They had to learn wrestling to stop a wrestler from dominating them.

That's the whole point.

I have NEVER heard Joe Rogan say that Wrestling, speaking of Western style Greco Roman wrestling (rather than Eastern styles), is the most valuable art.

I have. I am not lying.
Joe Rogan- “I personally think that the very best skill for MMA is wrestling, I think that’s the number one base to come from because those guys just flat out dictate where the fight takes place. You know, a great wrestler, you get a guy in there like a (Josh) Koscheck or like GSP you know they can just dictate what [expletive] happens. If they decide to take you to the ground, you’re going to the ground. You’re going to have to learn how to fight off your back and it’s not your strong suit. Even if you train for six hard weeks working guys off your back, the bottom is line for 10 years you’ve been training in stand-up and you’ve been training in your top game and you really haven’t put that much time into working off your back and you know six months is not going to fix you for GSP. He’s going to pass your [expletive], he’s going to mount you, he’s going to beat you up, he’s going to take you down the next round and do it it all over again, so I think it’s the important skill, in my opinion.”
http://www.fightopinion.com/2010/05/19/joe-rogan-judo-wrestling-ufc-chael-sonnen-anderson-silva/

He might have used the term in a generic way to refer to ones ground game, and that has truth, IN UFC....not in a street fight.

No, he said wrestling is the best base fighting style in MMA.

No, it hasn't. If you look at the most recent champions in the UFC, the most prevalent arts are #1 Eastern Grappling styles, with Muay Thai and Wrestling close seconds... Anderson Silva (current champion), George St. Pierre (current Champ),

GSP utilizing PRIMARILY wrestling and the fact that you don't know that speaks to your lack of knowledge on this subject . ANYBODY who follows MMA knows that GSP's BEST and MOST USED art is wrestling. EVERYBODY knows that.

Benson Henderson (current champ),

Wrestler.

Jose Aldo (current Champ),

Has trained hard at WRESTLING. Something noted when he bested Frankie Edgar- a wrestler.

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2013/2/1...chop-jose-aldo-takedown-defense-frankie-edgar

Cain Velasquez (Current Champ),

The BEST WRESTLER ON EARTH. It is hilarious that you would mention Velasquez when he is ABSOLUTELY RENOWNED for his WRESTLING.

It is how he absolutely OVERWHELMED striker and former UFC heavy champ and BEST BOXER IN UFC HEAVYWEIGHT HISTORY- Junior Dos Santos.

etc....ALL have Brazilian Jiu Jitsu in their repertoire.

So? Most of these guys lean primarily on WRESTLING in their fights.

In fact, their is ONLY one current UFC champ, Jon Jones, who has Greco Roman Wrestling as his primary artform.

You do not know what you are talking about. Cain Velasquez leans more on his wrestling than even Jon Jones!!

About HALF of the current UFC champs have no prior training in wrestling,

First of all, that is wrong.

Second if it was right it would prove my point. If HALF of the champs came from wrestling backgrounds that would unequivocally prove that wrestling is the top art! If wrestling gets HALF and the other DOZEN or so arts split the other half...

C'mon HD- you're better than this!

Thirdly, They don't have to come from wrestling backgrounds to have mastered wrestling since entering fighting and to use it PRIMARILY in their fights. GSP is proof of that.

by comparison. If you look at any one weight division, say Heavy weight, and just look at the last five champions, in EVERY case, Jiu Jitsu is seen more than any other art. Junior Dos Santos (boxing and Jiu Jitsu), Shane Carwin (boxing, but also Jiu Jitsu and wrestling),

SHANE CARWIN WAS A WRESTLER!!!! ALMOST PURE WRESTLER!

WOW.

Wrestling makes good punchers because the opponent always has to worry about the take-down and cannot hope to take the wrestler down himself.

Frank Mir (Karate and Jiu Jitsu).

Frank Mir has been dominated by wrestlers. Brock Lesnar may be the most worthless lump of flesh to ever enter the heavyweight division but he was a wrestler.

Frank Mir is the BEST heavy weight jiu jitsu artist in MMA history.

Brock Lesnar turned his face into hamburger meat the last time they met.

Shane Carwin, a wrestler, utilizing wrestling to hold Mir against the cage almost knocked Mir's brains out.

Mir is PROOF that jiu jitsu does not hold a candle to wrestling.

The list goes on and on. When it comes to WINNING, Jiu Jitsu has the other forms beat.

You have proven the opposite with your list.

And as far as Gracie...they didn't "learn how to deal with him"...he got old and broken. This lifestyle takes a toll on you. Just ask my knees and my back!

:thumbsup:

George Saint Pierre (Who I assume you refer to here) does NOT win by using GR wrestling!

He uses wrestling to win fights. Everybody knows that. He has beaten Nate Diaz, Carlos Condit, BJ Penn (jiu jitsu and boxer) and the list goes on and on by shooting and wrestling them to the ground.

Saint Pierre wins most by TKO, utilizing ground striking techniques, that are decidedly NOT from Greco Roman Wrestling... (which does not have ground striking). That is Eastern art, my friend.

MOST of his wins are NOT by TKO. They are by boring decisions that he wins by wrestling his opponent to the ground repeatedly.

As I have listed above...that is simply not the case. THE most common denominator among the champions, is Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. And striking ability, with the hands, is the number one tool used to win...

You could not be more wrong.

That is simply not true. A knife is relatively easy to defend against, from a standing position.

Utter baloney!

But on the ground, it is impossible. Ground fighting also leaves you vulnerable to additional assailants. And UFC, as it is now, is neither close to a street fight, nor is it even the closest thing we have. There are true "No holds barred" MMA tournaments, that are much closer to the real thing...

Where?

Here- you need to catch up:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/638703-why-wrestling-is-the-best-base-for-mma
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/963813-takedown-glory-why-wrestling-is-the-best-base-for-mma
http://www.fightopinion.com/2010/05/19/joe-rogan-judo-wrestling-ufc-chael-sonnen-anderson-silva/

 

[John of Japan]

I cannot count the number of times I have seen a boxer level a guy trying to take him to the ground.

Wrestling, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, and other ground arts, take extensive training to be proficient. Training two weapons, your fists, is MUCH better if you don't have the time to put in. Good training in a narrow field, is better than a little in a bunch of different fields.

By coincidence I'm sitting here watching an old Pancrase tape, so I thought I'd comment some. I agree with a lot of what you wrote, especially this and the final paragraph. I also agree about boxing--it's better than nothing, though narrow. However, for it to work in MMA they've had to modify a lot of the punches--lengthening the hooks, for example. Take away the boxing clinch and a lot of the boxing strategy disappears also. So MMA striking is quite different from boxing.

I also did want to point out that things are different in Japan. Back in the 1970s Karl Gotch and Lou Thesz came to Japan and taught a lot of catch-as-catch-can ("catch wrestling," "American folk wrestling"). If you're not familiar with it, catch is the immediate ancestor of Olympic wrestling, and it has a lot of submissions parallel to BJJ.

Anyway, a lot of Japanese MMA champions have had a catch wrestling base. Back in the '90s there were a number of MMA organizations with a catch basis: Pancrase (where Ras Butten, the Shamrocks, etc. got their start), Shoot, UWF, etc. So in Japan the most common base for MMA is wrestling. The most notable champion with a wrestling base is Sakuraba the Gracie Hunter, from the Takada Dojo, the most famous MMA school in Japan. Judo is the other main base for MMA over here, and several Olympic champions have done well as MMA pros.

Ironically, BJJ is still not that popular in Japan, though there are a number of dojos around the country. BJJ people do very well in the amateur submission wrestling tourneys

I have participated in countless tournaments, street fights, and Full contact matches in the ring (including one which was televised on ESPN2...my own little claim to fame). I taught Martial arts for years, have belts in Japanese Jiu Jitsu and Taekwondo, as well as studying various other arts...

Very cool, especially the ESPN fight.

That is simply not true. A knife is relatively easy to defend against, from a standing position. But on the ground, it is impossible. Ground fighting also leaves you vulnerable to additional assailants. And UFC, as it is now, is neither close to a street fight, nor is it even the closest thing we have. There are true "No holds barred" MMA tournaments, that are much closer to the real thing...

I agree completely. My kung fu friend and I used to watch UFC here. I have videos of the very early UFC fights, and even watching those we would always laugh when they said "no rules."

 

[Yeshua1]

By coincidence I'm sitting here watching an old Pancrase tape, so I thought I'd comment some. I agree with a lot of what you wrote, especially this and the final paragraph. I also agree about boxing--it's better than nothing, though narrow. However, for it to work in MMA they've had to modify a lot of the punches--lengthening the hooks, for example. Take away the boxing clinch and a lot of the boxing strategy disappears also. So MMA striking is quite different from boxing.

I also did want to point out that things are different in Japan. Back in the 1970s Karl Gotch and Lou Thesz came to Japan and taught a lot of catch-as-catch-can ("catch wrestling," "American folk wrestling"). If you're not familiar with it, catch is the immediate ancestor of Olympic wrestling, and it has a lot of submissions parallel to BJJ.

Anyway, a lot of Japanese MMA champions have had a catch wrestling base. Back in the '90s there were a number of MMA organizations with a catch basis: Pancrase (where Ras Butten, the Shamrocks, etc. got their start), Shoot, UWF, etc. So in Japan the most common base for MMA is wrestling. The most notable champion with a wrestling base is Sakuraba the Gracie Hunter, from the Takada Dojo, the most famous MMA school in Japan. Judo is the other main base for MMA over here, and several Olympic champions have done well as MMA pros.

Ironically, BJJ is still not that popular in Japan, though there are a number of dojos around the country. BJJ people do very well in the amateur submission wrestling tourneys
Very cool, especially the ESPN fight.

I agree completely. My kung fu friend and I used to watch UFC here. I have videos of the very early UFC fights, and even watching those we would always laugh when they said "no rules."

i am reminded of the old Indiana Jones movie when a man with big knife wants to cut him apart, and hethinks about his whip, and then decides to use his 45!

A friend of mine who is a Brown belt in karate said best advicefacing a man down witha Gun was 'run!"

Would it still be true that unless one is really close to him, the person with the gun still wins?

 

[Havensdad]

i am reminded of the old Indiana Jones movie when a man with big knife wants to cut him apart, and hethinks about his whip, and then decides to use his 45!

A friend of mine who is a Brown belt in karate said best advicefacing a man down witha Gun was 'run!"

Would it still be true that unless one is really close to him, the person with the gun still wins?

Your friend is right. We teach the 20 foot rule. If you are within 20 feet of the person, and get an opportunity (i.e. his gun is not drawn yet, the person gets distracted, etc.), you are better off charging him (assuming you are in good shape and trained). If you are outside of that 20 feet, you are better off running. The reasoning is, that outside of 20 feet it becomes increasingly difficult to hit a moving target with a pistol. Also, it has been demonstrated conclusively that a person who is trained can close the distance of 20 feet before a person can get their gun drawn and fired. Police have a similar rule for when they are allowed to shoot.

 

[Yeshua1]

i assume that you are refering to real wrestling, like the kind done in say College circles and in Olympic games?

 

[Yeshua1]

Your friend is right. We teach the 20 foot rule. If you are within 20 feet of the person, and get an opportunity (i.e. his gun is not drawn yet, the person gets distracted, etc.), you are better off charging him (assuming you are in good shape and trained). If you are outside of that 20 feet, you are better off running. The reasoning is, that outside of 20 feet it becomes increasingly difficult to hit a moving target with a pistol. Also, it has been demonstrated conclusively that a person who is trained can close the distance of 20 feet before a person can get their gun drawn and fired. Police have a similar rule for when they are allowed to shoot.

isn't most of your training to defense against saw a drawn gun/knife right on you? like someone approaching from behind to rob you?

just a side question, was there ever anything like in the bloodsport movie? is there really such a thing as that dreaded 'De mak?"

 

[Havensdad]

Boxers are taken down instantaneously in MMA fights. Randy Couture was pressing 50 when he whooped the snot out of decorated and famous boxer James Toney.

Yeah. Boxers do horribly...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUx9OE7DZAo

None of this changes facts. The best test tube we have had since the ancient Olympics is MMA. Boxers get the snot whooped out of them...

However, boxers and other strikers are at an EXTREME disadvantage in the UFC, because the rules are against them. They are not allowed to utilize any of their trained techniques for preventing a takedown! They are not allowed to ...

#1 Strike an opponent on the back of the neck or head, when a takedown is attempted (one of the primary ways of stopping a takedown, on the street!)

#2 Strike downward using the point of the elbow

#3 Kick or knee an opponent who is on the ground or on all fours (which means, practically, that the striker is not allowed to use his primary advantage against the wrestler...)

#4 No head butting (particularly bad for eastern strikers and Muay Thai, since this is a primary technique used when someone grabs you..)

#5 No strikes to the kidney with the heel (horrible for us Taekwondo folks..)

#6 No striking the throat (bad for all strikers, but particularly bad for those of us who have spent hours practicing striking the throat of a charging attacker...)

The odds are stacked against strikers by the rules. UFC is FAR from a street fight. In UFC, a striker is stripped of his most vital defenses against wrestlers/grapplers...

Skill in what? Wait for it- wrestling. They had to learn wrestling...

That's the whole point.

You are confusing terms. I will talk about this further down.

I have. I am not lying.
Joe Rogan- {SNIPPED FOR SPACE}

No, he said wrestling is the best base fighting style in MMA.

No, he said wrestling is the best SKILL to have in MMA. Not fighting style. This is where you are getting confused. There is "wrestling" the skill set, that is taught by Greco Roman wrestling, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, and several other art forms. Then there is wrestling the "Art" which is what is referred to as "Wrestling" (capitol W), "Olympic Wrestling", or "Greco Roman Wrestling".

Rogan is clearly referring to wrestling the skill set, NOT Wrestling the art. I know this, because he says...

"You’re going to have to learn how to fight off your back and it’s not your strong suit. Even if you train for six hard weeks working guys off your back, the bottom is line for 10 years you’ve been training in stand-up and you’ve been training in your top game and you really haven’t put that much time into working off your back"

That would NOT be true of a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu practitioner, or Sambo practitioner, who are MOST comfortable on their back, and spend MOST of their time on the mat.

Rogan is clearly making a very general distinction between "striking/wrestling"; he is not talking about any art form.

(To understand this distinction better look at the Olympics where you have Olympic wrestling {The art, which doesn't allow much of what is used in UFC}, and FREESTYLE wrestling, that uses Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Judo, Sambo, and traditional wrestling...)

GSP utilizing PRIMARILY wrestling and the fact that you don't know that speaks to your lack of knowledge on this subject . ANYBODY who follows MMA knows that GSP's BEST and MOST USED art is wrestling. EVERYBODY knows that.

You cannot win a UFC match, using only Greco Roman wrestling. I don't care what "everybody knows"...when GSP hits the mat, he isn't just moving around for a pin. He is STRIKING. He is beating the tar out of his opponent, the whole time. He loves punching, and he loves knees to the body.

Here, for example, is Pierre's last fight...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GW4a9Ohixk

Has trained hard at WRESTLING. Something noted when he bested Frankie Edgar- a wrestler.

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2013/2/1...chop-jose-aldo-takedown-defense-frankie-edgar

This is why I don't believe you know what you are talking about. The techniques used here, are general techniques common to all forms of grappling. They are not "Wrestling" techniques.

The BEST WRESTLER ON EARTH. It is hilarious that you would mention Velasquez when he is ABSOLUTELY RENOWNED for his WRESTLING.

In a GENERIC sense. He is not renowned for his Wrestling ART. Jeez!

It is how he absolutely OVERWHELMED striker and former UFC heavy champ and BEST BOXER IN UFC HEAVYWEIGHT HISTORY- Junior Dos Santos.

So? Most of these guys lean primarily on WRESTLING in their fights.

You do not know what you are talking about. Cain Velasquez leans more on his wrestling than even Jon Jones!!

Again, you don't understand the issue. NONE of these guys use the art of Wrestling. They use primarily eastern arts that teach wrestling SKILLS.

First of all, that is wrong.
Second if it was right it would prove my point. If HALF of the champs came from wrestling backgrounds ....

You do not understand. MOST of the guys have Brazilian Jiu Jitsu in their repertoire, MUCH more than have Greco Roman Wrestling.

C'mon HD- you're better than this!

I actually know what I am talking about. Your theology is good, but on this you have no clue, my friend. Martial arts has been a huge part of my life for longer than I can remember.

Thirdly, They don't have to come from wrestling backgrounds to have mastered wrestling since entering fighting and to use it PRIMARILY in their fights. GSP is proof of that.

GSP still leans heavily on striking. GSP has very little formal Wrestling training. If you will look up his sheet, you will see what turned him around: He began training with the Gracies in 2006, and finally earned his black belt in 2008...those big takedowns you see, did not originate with Greco Roman wrestling...they came from Jiu Jitsu, Judo, and Sambo...

SHANE CARWIN WAS A WRESTLER!!!! ALMOST PURE WRESTLER!

WOW.

Wow, indeed. Again, you don't know what you are talking about. Carwin won 8 out of 12 of his matches punching (you can actually look this up; its listed on the UFC fighting records). 3 of these were K.O. by standing punch. Of the remaining 4, all were submissions, via Brazilian Jiu Jitsu...

Wrestling makes good punchers because the opponent always has to worry about the take-down and cannot hope to take the wrestler down himself.

You keep switching from using wrestling generic, to Wrestling specific. A Brazilian Jiu Jitsu guy is highly trained in takedowns...in fact, Greco Roman wrestling doesn't have below the waist takedown (its illegal). All those below the waist take downs you see are Judo, Sambo and Jiu Jitsu...not wrestling.

Frank Mir has been dominated by wrestlers. Brock Lesnar may be the most worthless lump of flesh to ever enter the heavyweight division but he was a wrestler.

Frank Mir is the BEST heavy weight jiu jitsu artist in MMA history.

Brock Lesnar turned his face into hamburger meat the last time they met.

Shane Carwin, a wrestler, utilizing wrestling to hold Mir against the cage almost knocked Mir's brains out.

Mir is PROOF that jiu jitsu does not hold a candle to wrestling.



You have proven the opposite with your list.

Again, you don't know what you are talking about. Get out now why you can. FYI, MIR has a 16-6 record, and most of those were won by striking, against wrestlers...seems to argue against your point.

And again, Shane Carwin is not a "Wrestler." He has wrestling skill that he got from Jiu Jitsu...mainly from the Gracies.

He uses wrestling to win fights. Everybody knows that. He has beaten Nate Diaz, Carlos Condit, BJ Penn (jiu jitsu and boxer) and the list goes on and on by shooting and wrestling them to the ground.

Shooting on the legs is not a Wrestling technique. It is a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, sambo, and Judo technique. And it is highly dangerous in a street fight, because one elbow to the back of the neck (illegal in UFC), and its over.

MOST of his wins are NOT by TKO. They are by boring decisions that he wins by wrestling his opponent to the ground repeatedly.

Again, you don't know what you are talking about. GSP, according to his fight records, has won eight of his 24 wins by K.O. with punches, 5 using submission techniques (already more than half), and 7 by TKO, 6 of which were due to striking (most due to punching), and 1 corner stoppage.

You could not be more wrong.

Not baloney. Hard to argue with the stats that come straight from UFC... :BangHead:

Utter baloney!

No it is not. Using a knife, especially a pocket knife or small sheath knife like what people carry around with them (not like people walk around with Katanas nowadays), are extremely ineffective weapons while standing, in the hands of a novice. People who draw a knife suffer from what we call "tunnel vision"....the only thing they use is the knife. That means when someone draws a knife, you suddenly have gone from having to defend against multiple weapons and maneuvers, to just one weapon, and 2 or 3 maneuvers. The number of targets vulnerable to a small knife are few, and they are easily defended against.

Its not utter baloney, its fact. I would MUCH rather fight Joe blow with his pocket knife, versus a skilled fighter empty handed...

Where?

Here- you need to catch up:

Pure ignorance.

I have been out of the game for a while. But the most brutal tournament used to be Pride FC.

 

[Luke2427]

Yeah. Boxers do horribly...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUx9OE7DZAo





However, boxers and other strikers are at an EXTREME disadvantage in the UFC, because the rules are against them. They are not allowed to utilize any of their trained techniques for preventing a takedown! They are not allowed to ...

#1 Strike an opponent on the back of the neck or head, when a takedown is attempted (one of the primary ways of stopping a takedown, on the street!)

#2 Strike downward using the point of the elbow

#3 Kick or knee an opponent who is on the ground or on all fours (which means, practically, that the striker is not allowed to use his primary advantage against the wrestler...)

#4 No head butting (particularly bad for eastern strikers and Muay Thai, since this is a primary technique used when someone grabs you..)

#5 No strikes to the kidney with the heel (horrible for us Taekwondo folks..)

#6 No striking the throat (bad for all strikers, but particularly bad for those of us who have spent hours practicing striking the throat of a charging attacker...)

The odds are stacked against strikers by the rules. UFC is FAR from a street fight. In UFC, a striker is stripped of his most vital defenses against wrestlers/grapplers...




You are confusing terms. I will talk about this further down.





No, he said wrestling is the best SKILL to have in MMA. Not fighting style. This is where you are getting confused. There is "wrestling" the skill set, that is taught by Greco Roman wrestling, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, and several other art forms. Then there is wrestling the "Art" which is what is referred to as "Wrestling" (capitol W), "Olympic Wrestling", or "Greco Roman Wrestling".

Rogan is clearly referring to wrestling the skill set, NOT Wrestling the art. I know this, because he says...

"You’re going to have to learn how to fight off your back and it’s not your strong suit. Even if you train for six hard weeks working guys off your back, the bottom is line for 10 years you’ve been training in stand-up and you’ve been training in your top game and you really haven’t put that much time into working off your back"

That would NOT be true of a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu practitioner, or Sambo practitioner, who are MOST comfortable on their back, and spend MOST of their time on the mat.

Rogan is clearly making a very general distinction between "striking/wrestling"; he is not talking about any art form.

(To understand this distinction better look at the Olympics where you have Olympic wrestling {The art, which doesn't allow much of what is used in UFC}, and FREESTYLE wrestling, that uses Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Judo, Sambo, and traditional wrestling...)



You cannot win a UFC match, using only Greco Roman wrestling. I don't care what "everybody knows"...when GSP hits the mat, he isn't just moving around for a pin. He is STRIKING. He is beating the tar out of his opponent, the whole time. He loves punching, and he loves knees to the body.

Here, for example, is Pierre's last fight...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GW4a9Ohixk



This is why I don't believe you know what you are talking about. The techniques used here, are general techniques common to all forms of grappling. They are not "Wrestling" techniques.



In a GENERIC sense. He is not renowned for his Wrestling ART. Jeez!



Again, you don't understand the issue. NONE of these guys use the art of Wrestling. They use primarily eastern arts that teach wrestling SKILLS.



You do not understand. MOST of the guys have Brazilian Jiu Jitsu in their repertoire, MUCH more than have Greco Roman Wrestling.



I actually know what I am talking about. Your theology is good, but on this you have no clue, my friend. Martial arts has been a huge part of my life for longer than I can remember.




GSP still leans heavily on striking. GSP has very little formal Wrestling training. If you will look up his sheet, you will see what turned him around: He began training with the Gracies in 2006, and finally earned his black belt in 2008...those big takedowns you see, did not originate with Greco Roman wrestling...they came from Jiu Jitsu, Judo, and Sambo...




Wow, indeed. Again, you don't know what you are talking about. Carwin won 8 out of 12 of his matches punching (you can actually look this up; its listed on the UFC fighting records). 3 of these were K.O. by standing punch. Of the remaining 4, all were submissions, via Brazilian Jiu Jitsu...



You keep switching from using wrestling generic, to Wrestling specific. A Brazilian Jiu Jitsu guy is highly trained in takedowns...in fact, Greco Roman wrestling doesn't have below the waist takedown (its illegal). All those below the waist take downs you see are Judo, Sambo and Jiu Jitsu...not wrestling.



Again, you don't know what you are talking about. Get out now why you can. FYI, MIR has a 16-6 record, and most of those were won by striking, against wrestlers...seems to argue against your point.

And again, Shane Carwin is not a "Wrestler." He has wrestling skill that he got from Jiu Jitsu...mainly from the Gracies.



Shooting on the legs is not a Wrestling technique. It is a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, sambo, and Judo technique. And it is highly dangerous in a street fight, because one elbow to the back of the neck (illegal in UFC), and its over.




Again, you don't know what you are talking about. GSP, according to his fight records, has won eight of his 24 wins by K.O. with punches, 5 using submission techniques (already more than half), and 7 by TKO, 6 of which were due to striking (most due to punching), and 1 corner stoppage.




Not baloney. Hard to argue with the stats that come straight from UFC... :BangHead:




No it is not. Using a knife, especially a pocket knife or small sheath knife like what people carry around with them (not like people walk around with Katanas nowadays), are extremely ineffective weapons while standing, in the hands of a novice. People who draw a knife suffer from what we call "tunnel vision"....the only thing they use is the knife. That means when someone draws a knife, you suddenly have gone from having to defend against multiple weapons and maneuvers, to just one weapon, and 2 or 3 maneuvers. The number of targets vulnerable to a small knife are few, and they are easily defended against.

Its not utter baloney, its fact. I would MUCH rather fight Joe blow with his pocket knife, versus a skilled fighter empty handed...



Pure ignorance.

I have been out of the game for a while. But the most brutal tournament used to be Pride FC.

I've already refuted all of this. You disagree with every MMA expert that breathes. You don't know what you are talking about.

Here's further proof:

Shane Carwin:
National Collegiate Athletic Association
NCAA Division II National Wrestling Heavyweight Runner-Up 1996–97 (Two times)
NCAA Division II Wrestling Heavyweight Champion (1999)
NCAA Division II Wrestling Hall of Fame (2011)[32]
Western State College
Western State College Mountaineer Sports Hall of Fame (2004)
Rocky Mountain Athletic Conference
Rocky Mountain Athletic Conference Hall of Fame (2010)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shane_Carwin