Martial Arts?

[Jkdbuck76]

Wrestling.

No great boxer will ever beat a great wrestler.

No Karate or Muay Thai fighter stands a chance against a wrestler unless they have very good wrestling defense themselves- and that is not easy to develop.

The only fighting style that comes close is Brazilian Jiu Jitsu but with a little submission defense training added, the wrestler still has a significant advantage.

Wrestlers dominate the UFC with few exceptions.

Now all of that is a bit over-simplistic today, because few fighters are sticking strictly to their styles. Wrestlers have to learn a good deal of stand-up to be relevant. ALL fighting styles have to add a good bit of wrestling in order to be relevant.

But if you set a pure fighting style against another, I think wrestling (greco-roman or shoot) is the most effective.

Meh.... that's why it is good to be well-rounded. I'm from a family that sent two kids to State in highschool wrestling. It is good to know and it will help you scramble, but if you want to be well-rounded, then you'd better make sure that your punches count and spend some time on standup and grounfighting. But if I could go back to highschool, I'd have trained harder in wrestling.

EDIT: reinforcing your point by example: my coworker's kid is a phenomenal college wrestler and is a blue belt in BJJ. He mops the floor with purple belts and some of the brown belts. And he uses wrestling to do it. Which makes his coach (Jorge Gurgel) a little upset. At the end of the day, this kid is a physical specimen! He out-wrestles and out-Crossfits Rich Franklin. Only here in Cincinnati, baby!!!

 

[Jkdbuck76]

If somebody pulls a knife, you're in bad shape no matter what style you have- so that issue is irrelevant.

WRONG! Aikido will give you the ability to make the knife wielding person forget the knife and grab your wrist and then flip themselves onto the ground.

:tonofbricks:

Edit: I'm glad we're arguing about "which art is better" than "why is Calvinism the truth and Arminians are sissies" like we always do. Nice to postmortem tenderize a different horse for a change.

 

[Havensdad]

I've already refuted all of this. You disagree with every MMA expert that breathes. You don't know what you are talking about.

Here's further proof:

Shane Carwin:
National Collegiate Athletic Association
NCAA Division II National Wrestling Heavyweight Runner-Up 1996–97 (Two times)
NCAA Division II Wrestling Heavyweight Champion (1999)
NCAA Division II Wrestling Hall of Fame (2011)[32]
Western State College
Western State College Mountaineer Sports Hall of Fame (2004)
Rocky Mountain Athletic Conference
Rocky Mountain Athletic Conference Hall of Fame (2010)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shane_Carwin

That's not proof of anything. And no, I most certainly do NOT "disagree with every MMA expert." You took Rogan out of context, as I CLEARLY showed (as if a Jiu Jitsu guy is uncomfortable on his back, or doesn't know takedowns! Anyone that knows anything knows a Jiu Jitsu person is BETTER on his back!).

Some of these so-called "experts" are old washed up boxers, and western fighters that don't realize what they are calling "wrestling" is actually techniques stolen from Judo, Jiu Jitsu, and Sambo.

You take a guy who competes in Greco Roman Wrestling, and a guy who competes in Jiu Jitsu grappling tournaments, (neither of which have MMA experience, or experience in other arts), and the Jiu Jitsu guy will DESTROY the Greco Roman wrestler. Wrestling, capital W, is a SPORT art, not a DEFENSIVE art (same thing with Sport Taekwondo vs. Traditional, BTW).

 

[Yeshua1]

That's not proof of anything. And no, I most certainly do NOT "disagree with every MMA expert." You took Rogan out of context, as I CLEARLY showed (as if a Jiu Jitsu guy is uncomfortable on his back, or doesn't know takedowns! Anyone that knows anything knows a Jiu Jitsu person is BETTER on his back!).

Some of these so-called "experts" are old washed up boxers, and western fighters that don't realize what they are calling "wrestling" is actually techniques stolen from Judo, Jiu Jitsu, and Sambo.

You take a guy who competes in Greco Roman Wrestling, and a guy who competes in Jiu Jitsu grappling tournaments, (neither of which have MMA experience, or experience in other arts), and the Jiu Jitsu guy will DESTROY the Greco Roman wrestler. Wrestling, capital W, is a SPORT art, not a DEFENSIVE art (same thing with Sport Taekwondo vs. Traditional, BTW).

isn't the truth that nearly any real martial art will do the job needed, its just a question of how profoicent one actually in it to see how 'deadly' they are in it?

And how does one defend against quickness/speed? If bruce lee or superfoot wallace wanted to plant one on you, how to react to someone moving faster than you can even react?

 

[John of Japan]

i am reminded of the old Indiana Jones movie when a man with big knife wants to cut him apart, and hethinks about his whip, and then decides to use his 45!

I read that Harrison Ford had the flu that day, was feeling miserable, and went off script with the gun thing because he was tired of filming. And the rest is history. :laugh:

A friend of mine who is a Brown belt in karate said best advicefacing a man down witha Gun was 'run!"

Would it still be true that unless one is really close to him, the person with the gun still wins?

Havensdad is on target here with the 20 foot rule. Also, it may take several bullets to stop a person, especially with a small caliberr bullet, so even if you are shot you still have a chance to win if you have fighting skills.

The scenario not mentioned by Havensdad is if the person is right on you with the gun. But then the closer the better. I would even use what a grandmaster friend of mine calls "mind-leading" to try to get the criminal to put the gun up against my head, at which point I can disarm him before he pulls the trigger. (I've proved this with my students time and again.)

 

[Luke2427]

That's not proof of anything. And no, I most certainly do NOT "disagree with every MMA expert." You took Rogan out of context, as I CLEARLY showed (as if a Jiu Jitsu guy is uncomfortable on his back, or doesn't know takedowns! Anyone that knows anything knows a Jiu Jitsu person is BETTER on his back!).

Some of these so-called "experts" are old washed up boxers, and western fighters that don't realize what they are calling "wrestling" is actually techniques stolen from Judo, Jiu Jitsu, and Sambo.

You take a guy who competes in Greco Roman Wrestling, and a guy who competes in Jiu Jitsu grappling tournaments, (neither of which have MMA experience, or experience in other arts), and the Jiu Jitsu guy will DESTROY the Greco Roman wrestler. Wrestling, capital W, is a SPORT art, not a DEFENSIVE art (same thing with Sport Taekwondo vs. Traditional, BTW).

You're almost as stubborn as I am because you have clearly been refuted but you still keep going.

Rogan said wrestling is the best MMA skill.

He is right.

Shane Carwin is a wrestler. You were wrong.

You lose.

Just take your parting prize with your head held high that you did the best you could.

 

[Havensdad]

You're almost as stubborn as I am because you have clearly been refuted but you still keep going.

Rogan said wrestling is the best MMA skill.

He is right.

Shane Carwin is a wrestler. You were wrong.

You lose.

Just take your parting prize with your head held high that you did the best you could.

No, he is not, and no he didn't. Our friend's question was not "what is the best 'skill'". It was "What is the best ART" for self defense. You replied "Wrestling." Rogan did NOT say that the Art of wrestling was the best for MMA. He said the skill of wrestling, taught by many arts, including Jiu Jitsu, was the most important. He was talking about ground game, not about the ART of wrestling.

Greco Roman Wrestling, the ART, is HORRIBLE for self defense.

Shane Carwin's takedowns and moves, including striking, are NOT Greco Roman wrestling moves. Most of them are, in fact, illegal in Wrestling.

I didn't "lose" anything. You are like a kid arguing with a doctor about what kind of medicine he should take, because he "saw it on T.v." You are the one that is stubborn! Just ADMIT that you didn't know that generic "wrestling" is not an art. Admit it....

 

[Yeshua1]

No, he is not, and no he didn't. Our friend's question was not "what is the best 'skill'". It was "What is the best ART" for self defense. You replied "Wrestling." Rogan did NOT say that the Art of wrestling was the best for MMA. He said the skill of wrestling, taught by many arts, including Jiu Jitsu, was the most important. He was talking about ground game, not about the ART of wrestling.

Greco Roman Wrestling, the ART, is HORRIBLE for self defense.

Shane Carwin's takedowns and moves, including striking, are NOT Greco Roman wrestling moves. Most of them are, in fact, illegal in Wrestling.

I didn't "lose" anything. You are like a kid arguing with a doctor about what kind of medicine he should take, because he "saw it on T.v." You are the one that is stubborn! Just ADMIT that you didn't know that generic "wrestling" is not an art. Admit it....

Could the answer really be the best martial Art " is the one that works for you best?" and that the Gun trumps all? I am assuming one is proficient in drawing and using it!

 

[Havensdad]

Could the answer really be the best martial Art " is the one that works for you best?" and that the Gun trumps all? I am assuming one is proficient in drawing and using it!

The best art is one that is well rounded (if you have the time), or that gives the most effective results with the least amount of training (if you don't have the time).

I said Japanese Jiu Jitsu is the most effective, because it is brutal, and well rounded. You learn striking, standing grappling/throws, takedowns, wrestling and grappling skills, pressure points, etc. It even has weapons training...training in every level of combat.

Boxing is most effective in the case of those who don't have much time to train. I say this because wrestling is somewhat instinctual. If you get in a REAL fight, even if the person takes you down, the outcome is going to come down to striking ability (unless one or both of you are highly trained grapplers). MOST of the striking, is going to be with your hands. That is just the way that it is in the real world. Better to train your hands, than have insufficient skill in other areas..

 

[Yeshua1]

The best art is one that is well rounded (if you have the time), or that gives the most effective results with the least amount of training (if you don't have the time).

I said Japanese Jiu Jitsu is the most effective, because it is brutal, and well rounded. You learn striking, standing grappling/throws, takedowns, wrestling and grappling skills, pressure points, etc. It even has weapons training...training in every level of combat.

Boxing is most effective in the case of those who don't have much time to train. I say this because wrestling is somewhat instinctual. If you get in a REAL fight, even if the person takes you down, the outcome is going to come down to striking ability (unless one or both of you are highly trained grapplers). MOST of the striking, is going to be with your hands. That is just the way that it is in the real world. Better to train your hands, than have insufficient skill in other areas..

isn't there far greater force delivered thru your legs then arms though?

And if you can get into someone, how can they fight back if wrapped up ala wrestling/judo?

 

[Havensdad]

isn't there far greater force delivered thru your legs then arms though?

And if you can get into someone, how can they fight back if wrapped up ala wrestling/judo?

That is why I said that Jiu Jitsu (which incorporates wrestling, and is where Judo actually came from) is best, IF you have the time to train.

Listen, NOTHING is going to help you if you happen, against all odds, to run into a UFC champion mugging people. He is going to kick the snot out of you, unless you have equivalent training. But Joe Blow on the street is not going to bust out a triangle lock on you...its just not going to happen. Such moves take dedicated training to learn.

As for legs, YES they are stronger, but they are also EXTREMELY easy for even a novice to dodge, unless, again, the person has been extremely well versed in kicking. But if you meet Bruce Lee's double on the street, again, there is not much your going to be able to do anyway.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

That is why I said that Jiu Jitsu (which incorporates wrestling, and is where Judo actually came from) is best, IF you have the time to train.

Listen, NOTHING is going to help you if you happen, against all odds, to run into a UFC champion mugging people. He is going to kick the snot out of you, unless you have equivalent training. But Joe Blow on the street is not going to bust out a triangle lock on you...its just not going to happen. Such moves take dedicated training to learn.

As for legs, YES they are stronger, but they are also EXTREMELY easy for even a novice to dodge, unless, again, the person has been extremely well versed in kicking. But if you meet Bruce Lee's double on the street, again, there is not much your going to be able to do anyway.

You shoot him...a 45 works best.

 

[DFG]

Before I broke my neck over a year ago I was a fighter in the MMA Valley Fight League. If I didn't have 6 screws 4 rods and a bone graph I would still be fighting. If that was the case and it's Gods Will that I lead the Church I am giving a trial sermon for I would still fight. I don't see any issue. There are very strict rules for safety and it's no different than any other sport. For that matter I think water polo is far more dangerous.

 

[Havensdad]

You shoot him...a 45 works best.

We trained in that, too. As I said, you need to be well rounded.

And I prefer a 9mm. Not quite as much knock down, but better ballistics.. (and cheaper ammo)

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

We trained in that, too. As I said, you need to be well rounded.

And I prefer a 9mm. Not quite as much knock down, but better ballistics.. (and cheaper ammo)

You better have trained, because Ive trained with this since I was in the Corps & you wont be the 1st one Ive removed head & spirit from. And I only need one round. Care to test yourself?

 

[Havensdad]

You better have trained, because Ive trained with this since I was in the Corps & you wont be the 1st one Ive removed head & spirit from. And I only need one round. Care to test yourself?

Thank you for your service.

Doesn't take too much training to point a pistol and pull the trigger, though. First one to shoot wins.

 

[Yeshua1]

Thank you for your service.

Doesn't take too much training to point a pistol and pull the trigger, though. First one to shoot wins.

Would say that it is the one that can 'slow it down" and make an accurate shot, as woods full of guys with 'buck feaver', who see the deer and get all excited and shoot bullets in the tree!

 

[Yeshua1]

That is why I said that Jiu Jitsu (which incorporates wrestling, and is where Judo actually came from) is best, IF you have the time to train.

Listen, NOTHING is going to help you if you happen, against all odds, to run into a UFC champion mugging people. He is going to kick the snot out of you, unless you have equivalent training. But Joe Blow on the street is not going to bust out a triangle lock on you...its just not going to happen. Such moves take dedicated training to learn.

As for legs, YES they are stronger, but they are also EXTREMELY easy for even a novice to dodge, unless, again, the person has been extremely well versed in kicking. But if you meet Bruce Lee's double on the street, again, there is not much your going to be able to do anyway.

Do you know what navy seals/green berets/rangers learn when trained?

 

[Havensdad]

Do you know what navy seals/green berets/rangers learn when trained?

From what I understand, they don't use one particular style, but glean techniques from many different styles and synthesize them.

 

[Yeshua1]

From what I understand, they don't use one particular style, but glean techniques from many different styles and synthesize them.

All I know about the Seals is that friend of mine had a son spend 10 years with them, and that during their training/boot camp, you think you are going to die!

before the Lord saved me, was into reading remo williams Master of Sinanju, which described him as being master of the Art ALL other arts bridged off from, its like he was the master of all martial arts at same time!