Martin Luther and William Tyndale on the State of the Dead.

[Alofa Atu]

I have learned from "years of experience, in actual real-world cases, like yourself" (sound familiar) that they typically only want to win an argument, do not really want to dialog, and are closed minded ...

We are called (as I personally have been called) many things (even as I have been called "LIAR", and "heretic", member of a "cult", threatened with death even, mocked) and other such epithets). We accept:

I find it endearing now, and links me ever more closely to my LORD and Saviour Jesus Christ. They call us “fringe” [group], “sect”, “alarmist”, “conspiracist”, “tiny little group”, “narrow minded”, “close minded”, “hard headed”, “heretic”, etc.

Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

FRINGE:

Numbers 15:38 Speak unto the children of Israel, and bid them that they make them fringes in the borders of their garments throughout their generations, and that they put upon the fringe of the borders a ribband of blue:

Numbers 15:39 And it shall be unto you for a fringe, that ye may look upon it, and remember all the commandments of the LORD, and do them; and that ye seek not after your own heart and your own eyes, after which ye use to go a whoring:

Blue Sapphire Law of God - See Exodus 24:10-12; Ezekiel 1:26-28, 10:1

SECT:

Acts 24:5 For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes:

Acts 28:22 But we desire to hear of thee what thou thinkest: for as concerning this sect, we know that every where it is spoken against.

ALARMIST:

Joel 2:1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;

CONSPIRICIST:

Jeremiah 11:9 And the LORD said unto me, A conspiracy is found among the men of Judah, and among the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

Isaiah 8:12 Say ye not, A confederacy, to all them to whom this people shall say, A confederacy; neither fear ye their fear, nor be afraid.

TINY LITTLE GROUP:

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Zechariah 8:12 For the seed shall be prosperous; the vine shall give her fruit, and the ground shall give her increase, and the heavens shall give their dew; and I will cause the remnant of this people to possess all these things.

Ezekiel 5:1 And thou, son of man, take thee a sharp knife, take thee a barber's razor, and cause [it] to pass upon thine head and upon thy beard: then take thee balances to weigh, and divide the [hair].

Ezekiel 5:2 Thou shalt burn with fire a third part in the midst of the city, when the days of the siege are fulfilled: and thou shalt take a third part, [and] smite about it with a knife: and a third part thou shalt scatter in the wind; and I will draw out a sword after them.

Ezekiel 5:3 Thou shalt also take thereof a few in number, and bind them in thy skirts.

Ezekiel 5:4 Then take of them again, and cast them into the midst of the fire, and burn them in the fire; [for] thereof shall a fire come forth into all the house of Israel.

NARROW/NARROW MINDED:

Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

1 Peter 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

CLOSED/CLOSED MINDED:

Revelation 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

HARD HEADED:

Exodus 28:36 And thou shalt make a plate [of] pure gold, and grave upon it, [like] the engravings of a signet, HOLINESS TO THE LORD.

Exodus 28:37 And thou shalt put it on a blue lace, that it may be upon the mitre; upon the forefront of the mitre it shall be.

Exodus 28:38 And it shall be upon Aaron's forehead, that Aaron may bear the iniquity of the holy things, which the children of Israel shall hallow in all their holy gifts; and it shall be always upon his forehead, that they may be accepted before the LORD.

Ezekiel 3:8 Behold, I have made thy face strong against their faces, and thy forehead strong against their foreheads.

Ezekiel 3:9 As an adamant harder than flint have I made thy forehead: fear them not, neither be dismayed at their looks, though they [be] a rebellious house.

Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

1 Samuel 2:2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.

Matthew 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

Luke 20:18 Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

Acts 6:9 Then there arose certain of the synagogue, which is called [the synagogue] of the Libertines, and Cyrenians, and Alexandrians, and of them of Cilicia and of Asia, disputing with Stephen.

Acts 6:10 And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the spirit by which he spake.

HERESY:

Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Yet, even so, by saying "sect" they admit us in some way.

I came into the Seventh-day Adventist faith by study, not by lack of it. In fact, is was the word of God that convicted my own heart. I pity those raised in nominal Seventh-day Adventist churches which know nothing about their faith, and do not know how to answer such simple objections as yours.

to the possibility that they may actually learn something from a believer of another Christian faith.

I have read the entire History of the Reformation by D'Aubigny, and the History in the Time of Calvin. I have read the entire Two Republics by A T Jones. I have read numerous other works and historical materials. I have read countless (as man goes) hours of ECF, looking in Latin, Greek, Syriac, and protestant writers in the same, and in German, Italian, old English )such as Wycliff) etc. I have seen a multitude of historical videos, catholic and protestant, and muslim (qur'an, ahadith , tafsir, etc), JW, Mormon, spoken with wiccans, atheists, orthodox, and numerous baptists, etc.

Please, before you speak about something which you know nothing (ie my experiences), why not at least pretend to ask?

They absolutely will not be concerned with the possibility of misunderstanding anything that they have been taught otherwise in spite of the simplicity of their often repeated claims.

Rubbish. I have tested everything, and even came out of the religion I once was. I started at ground 0, letting go of that which I thought I knew, to take hold of that which God had for me in His word.

But since you insisted I was only making accusations

Still are.

I responded so others would see and know that these erroneous claims are quite easily refuted.

Refuted? Wow, active imagination too I see.

 

[Alofa Atu]

...

Once again, 2Tim. 3:16 teaches us that we need only scripture, and that it is "profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." That is the Bible alone is enough, no second revelation is anymore needed, no prophecy is further needed, and no Ellen G. White is needed to point us to anything we haven't already been given, because "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in times past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, whom He hath appointed heir of all things." (See Heb. 1:1)

Yes, the Bible (context of 2 Tim. 3:16 when it was written by Paul was OT texts. Why then do you accept the NT texts and the prophet therein?), and that Bible shows that God spake and still speaks by:

[1] The Son
[2] angels (like Gabriel)
[3] prophets (like Agabus, John, etc)
[4] apostles (Peter, Paul, and others after them)
[5] teachers
[6] animals
[7] signs/miracles in the Heaven/earth
[8] nature
[9] dreams/visions (it was even prophesied in the OT that it would take place in the NT)
etc.

Yes, the Father speaks through the Highest Messenger (Michael/Jesus), and as such, Jesus speaks through those just mentioned. Otherwise why listen to John on the Isle of Patmos at all, or Paul, or Peter, or Jude, or James, or Agabus, or Philips four daughters, or, etc.

I can even show where God has done this in history after the times of the close of Canon. It is historically documented in non-Seventh-day Adventist materials.

Now I'm sure you will get the last word in;

You sure complain a lot, and try to control the flow of information. It's called psychological manipulation. You 'hope', even fear, that I will respond, and so by so saying, you hope to cut off the flow of information by my acquiesence. Wake up Ronnie. You're dreaming.

I have never known an Adventist that could stand otherwise.

What, you never knew an Adventist that backed down from a real debate? You do realize that is positive testimony for such, not against such?

And I will let that happen because I have already allowed myself to get into a never ending debate once again.

Umm, you are right now in such though you deny it, as so many other things.

And, because of the simplicity of refuting the heretical doctrine that the SDA church allowed a woman to impose on it in direct opposition to the word of God, I will leave it at that.

I laughed at that. Puh-lease. Prove your case, try these first, so you do not step in more of 'your words'.

https://archive.org/download/7-so-called-false-predictions-from-ellen-g.-white-sda/7 (so called) False Predictions From Ellen G. White – SDA.pdf

https://archive.org/download/15-so-called-bible-contradictions-from-ellen-g.-white-sda/15 (so called) Bible Contradictions from Ellen G. White - SDA.pdf

https://archive.org/download/16th-so-called-bible-contradictions-from-ellen-g.-white-neither-touch-it/16th (so called) Bible Contradictions from Ellen G. White - Neither Touch It.pdf

Written by 'yours truly' in actual research.

For more see - Ellen G. White

I actually refuted many videos, materials, by actual research, see here for instance - Observations Upon Sister White & SDA Doctrines

I have even spent many months in dialogue with Ex-SDA on numerous occasions. They are the ones who always leave the conversation, unable to answer that which is provided. People like Dale Ratzlaff, cannot even respond, and refuse to, or even print what I send to them in response to their 'research'. It's a joke. People like Dale refute themselves, as did Ballenger, Walter Rea, Desmond Ford, DM Canright, and so many others.

Once again blessings and goodbye; I am closed to this conversation from this point forward

It is still going to get a response - obviously. Otherwise, I would be dead and laying down in the dust, but thanks be to God, I live.

so take your best shot, I don't mind

I do not actually believe you. At all.

. I don't need to defend the Bible

Wow. That's not taught in the Bible. Ask a real Baptist, and I am sure they will provide you with a plethora of texts to the contrary.

and what it teaches any further because it "is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

Indeed, but that text is not substantiative of your previous error.

 

[Alofa Atu]

To those who teach immortal soul/spirit theology:

The wicked who die outside of Christ Jesus are 'spiritually' dead (Eph. 2:1), and then become 'physically' dead (Eze. 3:18). What life do they have in death, and where does it come from (- please produce the verse)? The Bible says:

Eze_18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.​

 

[Alofa Atu]

Seeking a response from Roman Catholicism on these next questions (which originally were attempted by another Catholic):

If I might ask a personal question, to you (a Catholic), and not to be in any way derogatory, but I am simply asking out of curiosity, as I used to think such things, having grown up Roman Catholic, and my question to you (which are Catholic) personally is this - Do you think you will personally go to 'purgatory', and if so, how long do you think you will be 'there'? (As I said, I am simply asking a technical question, not saying anything about your personal character, and am curious to know, as I used to think in this manner.)

Another question, in the same fashion, as I used to think on this too, is - Do you personally know of anyone who died that you might think is right now in 'purgatory', and if so, how long do you think they will be there for, and based upon what doctrinal criteria do you think this (if you think this)?

If you, as a "Catholic" "don't "know"" where you are going when you die, or for that matter, where others go when they die, then, how can you, as a "Catholic" possibly pray 'to' those whom you, as a "Catholic", accept as being in "Catholic" "Heaven"? You "know" they are there?

How can you, as a "Catholic", pray "for" anyone whom you might "think" is in "Catholic" "purgatory", when all of them just might be in "Catholic" "hell" (which then prayers are unavailing even accord to "Catholic" standards), or those whom you, as a "Catholic", accept as being in "Catholic" "Heaven", might actually still be in "Catholic" "purgatory", yes? You "know" they are not there?

If "Catholic" "purgatory" actually exists (I don't believe that it does based upon Scripture (KJB), but let's assume a minute), and there are actual "souls" therein, How do you, as a "Catholic", know when to cease praying "for" such "souls", when if they are 'released' and enter "Catholic" "Heaven", what would such prayers do for them, and how would you "know" if they are released?

In matters of the "Catholic" doctrine of "the communion of the saints", can a living "Catholic" pray "to" a "soul" in "Catholic" "purgatory", and if not, why not? What is the difference, between praying "to" a "soul" in "Catholic" "Heaven", and "Catholic" "purgatory"? Surely, some "souls" in "Catholic" "purgatory" are closer to the "Beatific vision" than yourself, as a "Catholic" on earth, and would therefore, have some "merit" to share, yes? Again, if not, why not? Does the "merit", only get tabulated, once the "soul" enters "Catholic" "Heaven", and then becomes available?

Thank you for taking the time to address these. If you truly think I do not understand "Catholic" doctrine, then please take this as an opportunity to teach and correct. Thank you. Feel free to use "Catholic" scripture in your replies.

 

[utilyan]

Seeking a response from Roman Catholicism on these next questions (which originally were attempted by another Catholic):

Imagine if I get to insist what your favorite color is despite your objection. The main problem with Catholic doctrine is people are very much against what it isn't.


"Do you think you will personally go to 'purgatory', and if so, how long do you think you will be 'there'?"

No one said its a place or involves time. We have speculations and they are just that.

First lets start off with we have no MAGIC or DIVINE words. Prayer, Faith, Purgatory, mean particularly those things but nowadays they have been LOADED with multiple meanings, people figure because they rarely hear a word and only hear it in church it is now some holy magic.

I suggest you throw away the WORD "Purgatory". It means "cleanse" and we call the final purification "purgatory".

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607

Think for a moment have you EVER been cleansed by God? Has it happened multiple times or just once?

If your answer is YES the LAST ONE is purgatory if its the final one.

We believe it is possible you've living a pious life, and you can slip up, get angry and even in that moment die and still be cleansed from that wrong doing.

Scripture teaches that NOTHING IMPURE can enter heaven.

Rev 21

27and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

The reason there is SPECULATION that it involves a PLACE and TIME comes from the Jewish Kaddish. JEWS pray for their dead for 11 months that God will purify them.

This sort of thing has been abused, bishop, priest, pope, even a regular lay charlatan can tell a person look give me thousand dollars and ill cut 5 months off your dead family member's purgatory.

That would be WRONG, against catholic teaching, and evil.

========

Do you personally know of anyone who died that you might think is right now in 'purgatory', and if so, how long do you think they will be there for, and based upon what doctrinal criteria do you think this (if you think this)?

A catholic can't Judge. Even if the church says well this Person is a SAINT, or These people are a Married couple. It doesn't MAKE those things.

We are not even allowed to judge ourselves. Again remember Purgatory might not involve time or place. We don't know or claim to know.

Purgatory could be Jesus Christ washing us clean with a garden hose. The receiving or upgrade of glorified bodies too.

========
If you, as a "Catholic" "don't "know"" where you are going when you die, or for that matter, where others go when they die, then, how can you, as a "Catholic" possibly pray 'to' those whom you, as a "Catholic", accept as being in "Catholic" "Heaven"? You "know" they are there?

First it needs to be said for clarity sake PRAY does not mean worship.

Because you are a Christian part of you is already alive in Christ who is in heaven right now. People are alive in heaven.
Even if we were to assume a position of soul sleep, God, Jesus, Heaven is outside of time.

Even now I can ask you to pray for me "behind your back" and God can still inspire you to do so.

The spiritual and physical mechanics are insignificant even today when you are talking to love one face to face, It is GOD allowing and doing most if not all the work. he is the sustainer of all things, He is making sure all your molecules and atoms are holding together.

Also you are not required to believe that you will one day die despite everything the whole world tells you.
Throw trust on Jesus. Even if the whole world is on fire around you, Keep the faith.

John 8 51Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
=========
If "Catholic" "purgatory" actually exists (I don't believe that it does based upon Scripture (KJB), but let's assume a minute), and there are actual "souls" therein, How do you, as a "Catholic", know when to cease praying "for" such "souls", when if they are 'released' and enter "Catholic" "Heaven", what would such prayers do for them, and how would you "know" if they are released?

Just to refresh, We have no idea if it involves a place or time or a state. We don't believe its a temporal annihilation or conditional immortality.

======
In matters of the "Catholic" doctrine of "the communion of the saints", can a living "Catholic" pray "to" a "soul" in "Catholic" "purgatory", and if not, why not? What is the difference, between praying "to" a "soul" in "Catholic" "Heaven", and "Catholic" "purgatory"? Surely, some "souls" in "Catholic" "purgatory" are closer to the "Beatific vision" than yourself, as a "Catholic" on earth, and would therefore, have some "merit" to share, yes? Again, if not, why not? Does the "merit", only get tabulated, once the "soul" enters "Catholic" "Heaven", and then becomes available?

Every soul can pray for you. I can't judge anyone to be worse or better than me.

James 5
15And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. 16Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.


If Catholics thinks they can earn merit they will trade their seat in heaven even for you. "merit" might be misleading, A person who is selfless and generous have different view than selfish and greedy.

Romans 9
3For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

^This is very important Catholic perspective. Salvation is not the priority. The highest priority is Love God and Love Neighbor.

Even if the whole universe hates you we are to love you against all odds. We start picking up the Love God has for all his children. Even looking at the worst of sinners as the most favored son who we would strive to release from sin. Our responsibility for each other takes on a new life apart from obligation, Just like one might greatly love their own son or daughter, we win only when you win.

Catholic heaven might not involve a selfish person getting his "prize". We are willing to give up all prizes to see God with his children.

"I will stand at the gates of Heaven and I will not enter until all of my spiritual children are with me." -- Padre Pio

 

[Alofa Atu]

Imagine if I get to insist what your favorite color is despite your objection. The main problem with Catholic doctrine is people are very much against what it isn't.


"Do you think you will personally go to 'purgatory', and if so, how long do you think you will be 'there'?"

No one said its a place or involves time.

I think 'you' are the one who doesn't know Catholic doctrine:

"... Purgatory (Lat., "purgare", to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions. ..." - Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia, section "P", "Purgatory", subsection, "Catholic doctrine" - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Purgatory​

Under Summa Theologicae (Thomas Aquinas the so called 'Angelic Doctor', with Nihil Obstat's, Imprimatur's, and the seal of MARIÆ IMMACULATÆ - SEDI SAPIENTIÆ), Supplement, Appendix II, we likewise read:

"... I answer that, Nothing is clearly stated in Scripture about the situation of Purgatory, nor is it possible to offer convincing arguments on this question. It is probable, however, and more in keeping with the statements of holy men and the revelations made to many, that there is a twofold place of Purgatory. One, according to the common law; and thus the place of Purgatory is situated below and in proximity to hell, so that it is the same fire which torments the damned in hell and cleanses the just in Purgatory; although the damned being lower in merit, are to be consigned to a lower place. Another place of Purgatory is according to dispensation: and thus sometimes, as we read, some are punished in various places, either that the living may learn, or that the dead may be succored, seeing that their punishment being made known to the living may be mitigated through the prayers of the Church. ...

... The fire of Purgatory is eternal in its substance, but temporary in its cleansing effect. ..." - SUMMA THEOLOGIAE: Purgatory (Appendix II)​

 

[utilyan]

I think 'you' are the one who doesn't know Catholic doctrine:

"... Purgatory (Lat., "purgare", to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions. ..." - Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia, section "P", "Purgatory", subsection, "Catholic doctrine" - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Purgatory​

Under Summa Theologicae (Thomas Aquinas the so called 'Angelic Doctor', with Nihil Obstat's, Imprimatur's, and the seal of MARIÆ IMMACULATÆ - SEDI SAPIENTIÆ), Supplement, Appendix II, we likewise read:

"... I answer that, Nothing is clearly stated in Scripture about the situation of Purgatory, nor is it possible to offer convincing arguments on this question. It is probable, however, and more in keeping with the statements of holy men and the revelations made to many, that there is a twofold place of Purgatory. One, according to the common law; and thus the place of Purgatory is situated below and in proximity to hell, so that it is the same fire which torments the damned in hell and cleanses the just in Purgatory; although the damned being lower in merit, are to be consigned to a lower place. Another place of Purgatory is according to dispensation: and thus sometimes, as we read, some are punished in various places, either that the living may learn, or that the dead may be succored, seeing that their punishment being made known to the living may be mitigated through the prayers of the Church. ...

... The fire of Purgatory is eternal in its substance, but temporary in its cleansing effect. ..." - SUMMA THEOLOGIAE: Purgatory (Appendix II)​

Official teaching is stated by catechism. You are telling me what my favorite color is. He clearly states "It is probable". This is not an absolute teaching. The teaching even points out " entirely different from the punishment of the damned" rather than exactly "the same fire which torments the damned"

Jesus besides being divine was 100% human and the perfect standard, When Jesus died did he soul sleep too?

 

[Alofa Atu]

When Abel was murdered, by Cain, God asked Cain where Abel was:

Gen 4:9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?​

Both God and Cain knew the answer. Abel was dead. His blood was spilled and cried in testimony from the ground:

Gen 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.​

Abel was/is not in Heaven. He was/is dead, and awaits his resurrection at the last day, and 'waits' in the dust of the earth until that time, resting, asleep in the first death.

Job_14:14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
​

Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.​

 

[utilyan]

When Abel was murdered, by Cain, God asked Cain where Abel was:

Gen 4:9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?​

Both God and Cain knew the answer. Abel was dead. His blood was spilled and cried in testimony from the ground:

Gen 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.​

Abel was/is not in Heaven. He was/is dead, and awaits his resurrection at the last day, and 'waits' in the dust of the earth until that time, resting, asleep in the first death.

Job_14:14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
​

Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.​

This is a Yes or No question. Did Jesus Christ Soul Sleep?

 

[Alofa Atu]

This is a Yes or No question. Did Jesus Christ Soul Sleep?

Bible:

Joh 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

Joh 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Act_3:15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

Rev_1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Rev_2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

1Co_15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Mat_28:6 He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.

Joh_20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Mat_28:7 And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you.

Luk_24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

Psa 3:5 I laid me down and slept; I awaked; for the LORD sustained me.

Job_21:32 Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb.

Job 14:13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!

Job 14:14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.​

SoP/ToJ:

"... Jesus was the first-fruits of them that slept. When he came forth from the tomb, he called a multitude from the dead, thus settling forever the long-disputed question of the resurrection. In raising this multitude of captives from the dead, he gave evidence that there will be a final resurrection of those who sleep in Jesus. {PrT, February 18, 1886 par. 8} ..." - The Present Truth, February 18, 1886, par. 8

"... Jesus said to Mary, "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father." When he closed his eyes in death upon the cross, the soul of Christ did not go at once to Heaven, as many believe, or how could his words be true--"I am not yet ascended to my Father"? The spirit of Jesus slept in the tomb with his body, and did not wing its way to Heaven, there to maintain a separate existence, and to look down upon the mourning disciples embalming the body from which it had taken flight. All that comprised the life and intelligence of Jesus remained with his body in the sepulcher; and when he came forth it was as a whole being; he did not have to summon his spirit from Heaven. He had power to lay down his life and to take it up again. {6Red 22.1}

The brightest morning that ever dawned upon a fallen world, was that in which the Saviour rose from the dead; but it was of no greater importance to man than the day upon which his trial and crucifixion took place. It was no marvel to the heavenly host that He who controlled the power of death, and had life in himself, should awaken from the sleep of the grave. But it was a marvel to them that their loved Commander should die for rebellious men. {6Red 22.2}

Christ rested in the tomb on the Sabbath day, and when holy beings of both Heaven and earth [23] were astir on the morning of the first day of the week, he rose from the grave to renew his work of teaching his disciples. But this fact does not consecrate the first day of the week, and make it a Sabbath. ..." - Redemption - Or The Resurrection Of Christ, And His Ascension, 1877, pages 22.1 - 22.3​

This is a Yes or No question (Pro. 26:4-5). Do you believe what the scriptures cited just said to you (the SoP/ToJ is extra confirmation based upon the texts cited)?

 

[utilyan]

Bible:

Joh 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

Joh 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Act_3:15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

Rev_1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Rev_2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

1Co_15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Mat_28:6 He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.

Joh_20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Mat_28:7 And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you.

Luk_24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

Psa 3:5 I laid me down and slept; I awaked; for the LORD sustained me.

Job_21:32 Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb.

Job 14:13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!

Job 14:14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.​

SoP/ToJ:

"... Jesus was the first-fruits of them that slept. When he came forth from the tomb, he called a multitude from the dead, thus settling forever the long-disputed question of the resurrection. In raising this multitude of captives from the dead, he gave evidence that there will be a final resurrection of those who sleep in Jesus. {PrT, February 18, 1886 par. 8} ..." - The Present Truth, February 18, 1886, par. 8

"... Jesus said to Mary, "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father." When he closed his eyes in death upon the cross, the soul of Christ did not go at once to Heaven, as many believe, or how could his words be true--"I am not yet ascended to my Father"? The spirit of Jesus slept in the tomb with his body, and did not wing its way to Heaven, there to maintain a separate existence, and to look down upon the mourning disciples embalming the body from which it had taken flight. All that comprised the life and intelligence of Jesus remained with his body in the sepulcher; and when he came forth it was as a whole being; he did not have to summon his spirit from Heaven. He had power to lay down his life and to take it up again. {6Red 22.1}

The brightest morning that ever dawned upon a fallen world, was that in which the Saviour rose from the dead; but it was of no greater importance to man than the day upon which his trial and crucifixion took place. It was no marvel to the heavenly host that He who controlled the power of death, and had life in himself, should awaken from the sleep of the grave. But it was a marvel to them that their loved Commander should die for rebellious men. {6Red 22.2}

Christ rested in the tomb on the Sabbath day, and when holy beings of both Heaven and earth [23] were astir on the morning of the first day of the week, he rose from the grave to renew his work of teaching his disciples. But this fact does not consecrate the first day of the week, and make it a Sabbath. ..." - Redemption - Or The Resurrection Of Christ, And His Ascension, 1877, pages 22.1 - 22.3​

This is a Yes or No question (Pro. 26:4-5). Do you believe what the scriptures cited just said to you (the SoP/ToJ is extra confirmation based upon the texts cited)?

So your answer is NO?

 

[Alofa Atu]

So your answer is NO?

This is a Yes or No question (Pro. 26:4-5). Do you believe what the scriptures cited just said to you (the SoP/ToJ is extra confirmation based upon the texts cited)?

Is that your answer to the question asked? "NO" (sic)?

 

[Oseas3]

Lets look at what Jesus said:
John 5:28-29 King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

We see here that Jesus said nothing about the soul and so its clear we can be a Christian and not believe in the immortality of the soul, but it is not possible to be a Christian and not believe in the resurrection of the body.

Where is written LITERALLY "immortality of the soul" in the book of the Lord, the Holy Scriptures - the Bible?

What is soul according Scriptures?

 

[utilyan]

Is that your answer to the question asked? "NO" (sic)?

I asked you if Jesus Soul Sleeps when he dies. TOO difficult to get a YES or NO from you.

Because no matter what answer you give it makes Soul Sleep look like a real stupid doctrine.

 

[Salty]

Six hour warning -
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[Alofa Atu]

I asked you if Jesus Soul Sleeps when he dies. TOO difficult to get a YES or NO from you.

Because no matter what answer you give it makes Soul Sleep look like a real stupid doctrine.

I asked you if you believed the texts provided (THE Authority, rather than myself, which is no authority) in response to your question, for they are very plainly given in simple English. "TOO difficult" for you to understand, eh? I can get that, since you are a dedicated Catholicite, and can only accept another man's, even the man of sin's (pope's position), opinion on the matter. Which, from this position, is the "real stupid doctrine" (sic), to take such opinion and place it above that which is written and inspired of the Holy Ghost, and preserved thereby.

Here is the link to the answer you seek, if and when you actually want that answer (I even went to the trouble to highlight the texts for you) - Martin Luther and William Tyndale on the State of the Dead.

 

[Alofa Atu]

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Fa'afetai lava, Salty. This study has been very enlightening to me, and was worth the time to research the materials therein. Perhaps someday it may be of use to others who desire to study into these things.

Without the state of the dead being understood in it's fullness, the Gospel cannot be rightly understood. If the old man of sin is not truly dead, but lives on spiritually (as natural to spiritual death), there is no hope of a life without sin, here or ever.

 

[Salty]

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This thread is closed