Martin Luther on Galatians 3:13

[JesusFan]

John, I use satisfaction because that was portrayed in the OT and is expressed by NT writers. I also read that it was heard at various times by those near the Christ.

Satisfaction does not remove the aspects of blood sacrifice, but what it does is remove the thinking that Christ's suffering was not a quid pro quo or some kind of exchange that is often expressed by those who endorse substitution thinking.

Christ is not a substitute, but the divine and through Him we have life everlasting. If anything, Christ is the substitute by removing the temporary and providing the permanent reconciliation.

Jesus died as our lamb, in our stead!

 

[JonC]

How are our sins atoned for if not by the Psa view?
And has the Holy Spirit Himself gifted you to know Psa is the only invalid atonement view, as He seemed to have missed giving that to nearly all Baptists and Reformed?

How? On Christ and by His blood.

Has God gifted me to know the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement is the only wrong view? No. I'm sure there are plenty of errors. God has, however, led me to know Penal Substitution Theory is a false doctrine, but probably because I held it. I'm sure there are others.

 

[JesusFan]

How? On Christ and by His blood.

Has God gifted me to know the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement is the only wrong view? No. I'm sure there are plenty of errors. God has, however, led me to know Penal Substitution Theory is a false doctrine, but probably because I held it. I'm sure there are others.

The Holy Spirit cannot tell you that, as that means that you are an infallible guide to what scriptures state, at best, can just say you do not agree with it!

 

[DaveXR650]

Where is the statement of divine wrath being poured out by The Father upon the Son?

You should have started with verse 14 but still, we look at identical verses and see different things. Just verse 20 "making peace through his blood" shows penal substitution. You don't think it does, fine. Making peace shows enmity being pacified. Jesus did that. The cause of the enmity was us, not Jesus.

Christ is not a substitute, but the divine and through Him we have life everlasting. If anything, Christ is the substitute by removing the temporary and providing the permanent reconciliation.

Then you say this, which is contradictory. Are you willing to go as far as JonC?

Penal Substitution Theory and Christianity are opposing things.

 

[DaveXR650]

The Holy Spirit cannot tell you that, as that means that you are an infallible guide to what scriptures state, at best, can just say you do not agree with it!

Wait till one of the Catholics come on here and tell us that private interpretation has caused all the problems. Chalk up one for them.

 

[JesusFan]

You should have started with verse 14 but still, we look at identical verses and see different things. Just verse 20 "making peace through his blood" shows penal substitution. You don't think it does, fine. Making peace shows enmity being pacified. Jesus did that. The cause of the enmity was us, not Jesus.



Then you say this, which is contradictory. Are you willing to go as far as JonC?

JonC seems to be accusing us holding to psa as holding to heresy!

 

[JesusFan]

Wait till one of the Catholics come on here and tell us that private interpretation has caused all the problems. Chalk up one for them.

Just amazing that the Holy Spirit kept the Church in heresy on Psa and the reformation until NT Wright and his ilk arose!

 

[JonC]

Jesus died as our lamb, in our stead!

He is the Lamb.

 

[JesusFan]

He is the Lamb.

He died in our stead, as our substitute

 

[JonC]

JonC seems to be accusing us holding to psa as holding to heresy!

Not at all. It is unbiblical and contrary to Christianity, but at the same time a minority of Christians belueve it true. It has been orthodox since the Reformation (Augustine declared the idea heresy, but that is pre-Reformation).

Christians can believe stupid stuff. I know some who belueve superstitions about cats crossing the path.

 

[JonC]

He died in our stead, as our substitute

That is not in the Bible, but I understand that is what you believe.

 

[agedman]

You should have started with verse 14 but still, we look at identical verses and see different things. Just verse 20 "making peace through his blood" shows penal substitution. You don't think it does, fine. Making peace shows enmity being pacified. Jesus did that. The cause of the enmity was us, not Jesus.



Then you say this, which is contradictory. Are you willing to go as far as JonC?

Just as in the OT the blood sacrifice then brought temporary reconciliation and satisfaction, where our Lords was permanent.

I do not use substitution but satisfation, for that is the picture throughout the Scriptures. God was reconciled to man not by substitution but by satisfaction.

It is a very small thing concerning how the words are currently used in our society that I sense the need to make such distinction.

 

[DaveXR650]

I do not use substitution but satisfation, for that is the picture throughout the Scriptures. God was reconciled to man not by substitution but by satisfaction.

There again we go around in circles. I agree with the concept of satisfaction but have no trouble with the idea of substitution because the satisfaction was made on our behalf by Jesus and he suffered and bore the sins in his own body.

I'm going to bow out at this point. I know enough of reading your posts and JonC's that I think you are both good believers and I think theological debates can sometimes get to a point where we might begin saying things that we don't mean to get out of logical traps or to make a point. I will say that you both have caused me to look into PSA with a lot of effort and so I think you both were probably excellent teachers. Don't let this get too nasty. Thanks guys.

 

[agedman]

There again we go around in circles. I agree with the concept of satisfaction but have no trouble with the idea of substitution because the satisfaction was made on our behalf by Jesus and he suffered and bore the sins in his own body.

I'm going to bow out at this point. I know enough of reading your posts and JonC's that I think you are both good believers and I think theological debates can sometimes get to a point where we might begin saying things that we don't mean to get out of logical traps or to make a point. I will say that you both have caused me to look into PSA with a lot of effort and so I think you both were probably excellent teachers. Don't let this get too nasty. Thanks guys.

Friend, be safe out there.

 

[JesusFan]

Not at all. It is unbiblical and contrary to Christianity, but at the same time a minority of Christians belueve it true. It has been orthodox since the Reformation (Augustine declared the idea heresy, but that is pre-Reformation).

Christians can believe stupid stuff. I know some who belueve superstitions about cats crossing the path.

Anything unbiblical and contrary to Christianity would by definition be heresy!

 

[JesusFan]

That is not in the Bible, but I understand that is what you believe.

Oh its in the bible, but you refuse to accept it!

 

[JesusFan]

There again we go around in circles. I agree with the concept of satisfaction but have no trouble with the idea of substitution because the satisfaction was made on our behalf by Jesus and he suffered and bore the sins in his own body.

I'm going to bow out at this point. I know enough of reading your posts and JonC's that I think you are both good believers and I think theological debates can sometimes get to a point where we might begin saying things that we don't mean to get out of logical traps or to make a point. I will say that you both have caused me to look into PSA with a lot of effort and so I think you both were probably excellent teachers. Don't let this get too nasty. Thanks guys.

I just cannot see how their can be real justification apart from psa view of the Cross!

 

[agedman]

Anything unbiblical and contrary to Christianity would by definition be heresy!

I do tend to agree with this thinking.

However, there is room for growth, and not all are at the same strength of the Spirit to endure at the same level every day.

There may be a time that in the flesh I also blurt that which is unbiblical and contrary to sound doctrine, but God knows the heart and I am thankful that there is no condemnation in Christ. Even as ashamed as I am.

 

[JesusFan]

I do tend to agree with this thinking.

However, there is room for growth, and not all are at the same strength of the Spirit to endure at the same level every day.

There may be a time that in the flesh I also blurt that which is unbiblical and contrary to sound doctrine, but God knows the heart and I am thankful that there is no condemnation in Christ. Even as ashamed as I am.

Just seems that Jon C calling those of us advocating for Psa heretics

 

[agedman]

I just cannot see how their can be real justification apart from psa view of the Cross!

It comes from the fact that God and the Christ working in concert brought forth the victory over sin, death and the grave.

Is not our salvation totally of Him? Of course.

Even the sacrifice of that which is perfect, and not just good, for ever perfect gift is from above, is it not?