Martin Luther on Galatians 3:13

[agedman]

Just seems that Jon C calling those of us advocating for Psa heretics

I don't think he did, though I did not read everything he has written.

He and I both think that the PSA presents an unbibilical view. But that doesn't rise (imo) to heresy.

What might be heresy is the call that it is the only, or in exclusion to all others as the sole truth.

That perhaps crosses over the mark, but again, exuberance can carry us often much further then we might upon quiet reflection consider too far.

 

[JonC]

Anything unbiblical and contrary to Christianity would by definition be heresy!

Define it how you like. But "orthodox" does not necessarily mean biblical and condusive to Christianity.

 

[JonC]

Just seems that Jon C calling those of us advocating for Psa heretics

No. I know English real good .

If I wanted to call Penal Substitution Theory heresy then I would call it heresy. But I do know it is within orthodox faith. That does not mean it is biblical or even in agreement with Christianity (it is within Christianity but also undermines the biblical view of the Death and Resurrection).

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I am confused about all of the uproar over PSA, especially in a baptist chat.

PSA is simple.

If a mans child was convicted of a crime, and given a death penalty. The man could redeem her sin. and she could go free.

However, the man had to be innocent of the crime

He he would have to pay her debt in her place (his life would have to be taken as payment for that sin)

Once he receives the death penalty in his daughters place. She is set free. Given a write of justification. It is as if she never committed the crime for which she was charged with. Her debt fell on her father. who out of love received her penalty,

This is exactly what Christ did for us. The penalty of sin is death, Every sin we commit has attached to it a death penalty. It does not matter if we sinned 100 times or 1000 times, each sin comes with a death penalty.

God as a loving father. sent his son to be my redeemer. He dies so I may live.

As a righteous judge, this can ONLY happen if Gods wrath is satisfied. Which means, Gods wrath is removed from the sinner, and placed on the person who is taking their place. There is no other option.

Jesus died twice on the cross. He did not just suffer physical death. Remember physical death was the end result of sin. Spiritual death was the immediate result. we see this all the way back to Adam and eve. where the moment they sinned, Everything they knew about God seemed to go away, became foolishness to them

They died spiritually at that moment (dieing you will die)

If Jesus did not take on this debt of all mankind, we are still dead in our sins. Payment was not made, and we will need to suffer our own condemnation and spiritual death forever. Because the gift of life can not be offered.

 

[JesusFan]

It comes from the fact that God and the Christ working in concert brought forth the victory over sin, death and the grave.

Is not our salvation totally of Him? Of course.

Even the sacrifice of that which is perfect, and not just good, for ever perfect gift is from above, is it not?

How does God then be able to justify the sinner and yet still remain Holy then if not psa?

 

[JesusFan]

No. I know English real good .

If I wanted to call Penal Substitution Theory heresy then I would call it heresy. But I do know it is within orthodox faith. That does not mean it is biblical or even in agreement with Christianity (it is within Christianity but also undermines the biblical view of the Death and Resurrection).

How can it be Orthodox though per you, if neither Biblical nor within Christianity?

 

[JesusFan]

I am confused about all of the uproar over PSA, especially in a baptist chat.

PSA is simple.

If a mans child was convicted of a crime, and given a death penalty. The man could redeem her sin. and she could go free.

However, the man had to be innocent of the crime

He he would have to pay her debt in her place (his life would have to be taken as payment for that sin)

Once he receives the death penalty in his daughters place. She is set free. Given a write of justification. It is as if she never committed the crime for which she was charged with. Her debt fell on her father. who out of love received her penalty,

This is exactly what Christ did for us. The penalty of sin is death, Every sin we commit has attached to it a death penalty. It does not matter if we sinned 100 times or 1000 times, each sin comes with a death penalty.

God as a loving father. sent his son to be my redeemer. He dies so I may live.

As a righteous judge, this can ONLY happen if Gods wrath is satisfied. Which means, Gods wrath is removed from the sinner, and placed on the person who is taking their place. There is no other option.

Jesus died twice on the cross. He did not just suffer physical death. Remember physical death was the end result of sin. Spiritual death was the immediate result. we see this all the way back to Adam and eve. where the moment they sinned, Everything they knew about God seemed to go away, became foolishness to them

They died spiritually at that moment (dieing you will die)

If Jesus did not take on this debt of all mankind, we are still dead in our sins. Payment was not made, and we will need to suffer our own condemnation and spiritual death forever. Because the gift of life can not be offered.

Jesus though did not die spiritually though

 

[JesusFan]

I don't think he did, though I did not read everything he has written.

He and I both think that the PSA presents an unbibilical view. But that doesn't rise (imo) to heresy.

What might be heresy is the call that it is the only, or in exclusion to all others as the sole truth.

That perhaps crosses over the mark, but again, exuberance can carry us often much further then we might upon quiet reflection consider too far.

How can anything though be called unBiblical and not christian not be seen as a heresy?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Jesus though did not die spiritually though

this thought worries me, if he did not, we are still dead in our sin in my view.

He died spiritually while he hung on the cross. About the 9th hour. When it got so dark, people could not see their hands in front of their faces. When Jesus screamed like no one has ever screamed before. Because the father and spirit could not look at him while our sins were on his body.

That was the payment for our sin.

 

[JesusFan]

this thought worries me, if he did not, we are still dead in our sin in my view.

He died spiritually while he hung on the cross. About the 9th hour. When it got so dark, people could not see their hands in front of their faces. When Jesus screamed like no one has ever screamed before. Because the father and spirit could not look at him while our sins were on his body.

That was the payment for our sin.

Did not spiritual die, as that would mean had to be born again!

 

[JonC]

How can anything though be called unBiblical and not christian not be seen as a heresy?

So you are calling Penal Substitution Theory heresy? How can you do this knowing it is within orthodox belief (even though it is unbiblical and in opposition to the Christian faith)?

Heresy speaks of orthodoxy. Many things are serious errors but still within orthodox faith.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Did not spiritual die, as that would mean had to be born again!

If he did not spiritually die. He did not suffer for our sin.

and we are still dead in sin

the penalty of sin is death (spiritual)

 

[JesusFan]

So you are calling Penal Substitution Theory heresy? How can you do this knowing it is within orthodox belief (even though it is unbiblical and in opposition to the Christian faith)?

Heresy speaks of orthodoxy. Many things are serious errors but still within orthodox faith.

No, as I affirm that is the the most consistent and biblical viewpoint regarding the Atonement, just trying to see how you deny it as a heresy as you called it both non christian and not biblical!

 

[JesusFan]

If he did not spiritually die. He did not suffer for our sin.

and we are still dead in sin

the penalty of sin is death (spiritual)

I do not think any Reformer ever affirmed that though!

 

[JonC]

No, as I affirm that is the the most consistent and biblical viewpoint regarding the Atonement, just trying to see how you deny it as a heresy as you called it both non christian and not biblical!

I see. You are a bit confused. I never denied Penal Substitution Theory as heresy (Christians do hold the view).

I reject the Theory because it is unbiblical and teaches a doctrine that is contrary to Christianity (it colors other doctrines with false light, and it is one reason people leave the faith as they start realizing the church they attend preaches what is not in the Bible).

 

[JesusFan]

I see. You are a bit confused. I never denied Penal Substitution Theory as heresy (Christians do hold the view).

I reject the Theory because it is unbiblical and teaches a doctrine that is contrary to Christianity (it colors other doctrines with false light, and it is one reason people leave the faith as they start realizing the church they attend preaches what is not in the Bible).

people reject it as being "pagan, bloody, and cosmic child abuse"

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I do not think any Reformer ever affirmed that though!

I have never heard anyone, reformed or not. Who did not think Jesus did not suffer spiritual death on the cross.

I am more worried about what scripture says than what a church says anyway. I would hope we are all that way

 

[JesusFan]

I have never heard anyone, reformed or not. Who did not think Jesus did not suffer spiritual death on the cross.

I am more worried about what scripture says than what a church says anyway. I would hope we are all that way

The only one ever read that stated Jesus died spiritually are word of faith heretics!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The only one ever read that stated Jesus died spiritually are word of faith heretics!

And your in a baptist chat?

never knew baptists were word of faith

 

[JesusFan]

And your in a baptist chat?

never knew baptists were word of faith

We are not, just was saying only ones who hold to Jesus died spiritually have been wof heretics!