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every baptist church I have ever went to (and there have been many all over the country in my military time) understand that basic fact.We are not, just was saying only ones who hold to Jesus died spiritually have been wof heretics!
Do you have an article from a Baptist or two where they declare that Jesus was spiritually dead as well as physically dead?every baptist church I have ever went to (and there have been many all over the country in my military time) understand that basic fact.
It is taught at Dallas Theological seminary from what I understand. ( I say that because I have been under 2 pastor teachers who graduated from there. and studied under one (through his tape ministry and books)
So I will just say, it is not just word of faith.
So my 40 years of experience in a baptist church is not good enough?Do you have an article from a Baptist or two where they declare that Jesus was spiritually dead as well as physically dead?
What text in scripture do you use?
I have never read any reformed or Baptist theology or commentary that stated Jesus spiritually died. as ONLY see that in WoF theology!Do you have an article from a Baptist or two where they declare that Jesus was spiritually dead as well as physically dead?
What text in scripture do you use?
Jesus was God, and God cannot spiritually die!So my 40 years of experience in a baptist church is not good enough?
What text scripture do I use?
lets start with the cross.
My God my God why have you FORSAKEN me..
Do you have an article or 2 from a baptist that does not believe in spiritual death.
I also have a question, do you believe in eternal security?
Jesus is one aspect of the trinityJesus was God, and God cannot spiritually die!
First, how do we verify your 40 years of experience in a Baptist Church? Do you have a membership card or do we just take your word for it?So my 40 years of experience in a baptist church is not good enough?
What text scripture do I use?
lets start with the cross.
My God my God why have you FORSAKEN me..
Do you have an article or 2 from a baptist that does not believe in spiritual death.
I also have a question, do you believe in eternal security?
Unless you or someone else gives me a reason to not take you at your word. I do not know any reason why I would not believe what you say about yourself. I guess if you need proof. I do not know what to tell you.First, how do we verify your 40 years of experience in a Baptist Church? Do you have a membership card or do we just take your word for it?
Second, Jesus words "my God, my God, why have you forsaken me" has nothing to do with spiritual death. Even those who die in unrepentance will not die spiritually. Our spirits are eternal.
I have no article, but I point to Samuel being revealed as spiritually alive when the witch of Endor called him. I point to both Moses and Elijah being spiritually alive at the transfiguration.
What you seem to be suggesting is that there is an annihilation of the spirit, but the Bible never teaches such a thing.
Jesus is God, and God cannot spiritually die!Jesus is one aspect of the trinity
If the other two aspects of the trinity (forsake) the third member, because our sin was placed in his body.
The third member spiritually died (was spiritually seperated from the father and the Holy Spirit)
This is exactly what happened.
IF Jesus dies spiritually, how and when did he get born again alive?Unless you or someone else gives me a reason to not take you at your word. I do not know any reason why I would not believe what you say about yourself. I guess if you need proof. I do not know what to tell you.
I am not sure you understand what spiritual death is. You said a non believer will not die spiritually? The fact is, they are already spiritual dead. We are all born spiritually dead to God. In Adam, all die. As paul said, we who were DEAD in tresspasses and sin (spiritually dead) he made alive (born again)
So when you claim a non believer will not die spiritually. I am not sure you understand what spiritual death means, Here is how it was explained to me a few decades ago..
Physical death is separation of the soul from the body.
Spiritual death is the separation or barrier between mankind one God.
There is a barrier between mankind and God. Thats why in the OT temple. Only one man could even enter the presence of God. And he had to be made clean (by animal sacrifice) to even be allowed in, if he was not clean, He died (At least in the beginning when Gods presence was actually there)
Sadly I think people today miss the picture that spoke. Where the children of Israel could not approach the presence of God. The death spiritually that mankind suffered.
I learned this many years ago at the Bethesda baptist Church in Columbus ohio (sadly it is no longer there)
A man is born a dichotomus (spelling?) being. He has a body and soul, His spirit is dead.
After a man is born again, he becomes a trichotymus (spelling?) being (body soul and spirit) as his spirit is made alive.
The soul in scripture is called a worm. Jesus said the worm will never die (speaking of those who go to hell)
The soul is made alive at the moment of birth. Yet the spirit is dead.
In adam All Die. One must be born again, it is the spirit that must be made alive.
I hope this helps.
I have read many Baptist and reformed theologies, and have NEVER read in an y them that Jesus died spiritually upon that Cross!First, how do we verify your 40 years of experience in a Baptist Church? Do you have a membership card or do we just take your word for it?
Second, Jesus words "my God, my God, why have you forsaken me" has nothing to do with spiritual death. Even those who die in unrepentance will not die spiritually. Our spirits are eternal.
I have no article, but I point to Samuel being revealed as spiritually alive when the witch of Endor called him. I point to both Moses and Elijah being spiritually alive at the transfiguration.
What you seem to be suggesting is that there is an annihilation of the spirit, but the Bible never teaches such a thing.
The idea of being spiritually dead, is not that a person's spirit no longer exists or functions. It means that sin has brought the curse upon that person so that they cannot know God as their redeemer. This is why Paul reminds us that no one seeks God in Romans 3, or that God has mercy on whom he wills in Romans 9. This is why Jesus tells Nicodemus that you must be born again in John 3 and why Paul says thay God makes a person alive with Christ in Ephesians 2.Unless you or someone else gives me a reason to not take you at your word. I do not know any reason why I would not believe what you say about yourself. I guess if you need proof. I do not know what to tell you.
I am not sure you understand what spiritual death is. You said a non believer will not die spiritually? The fact is, they are already spiritual dead. We are all born spiritually dead to God. In Adam, all die. As paul said, we who were DEAD in tresspasses and sin (spiritually dead) he made alive (born again)
So when you claim a non believer will not die spiritually. I am not sure you understand what spiritual death means, Here is how it was explained to me a few decades ago..
Physical death is separation of the soul from the body.
Spiritual death is the separation or barrier between mankind one God.
There is a barrier between mankind and God. Thats why in the OT temple. Only one man could even enter the presence of God. And he had to be made clean (by animal sacrifice) to even be allowed in, if he was not clean, He died (At least in the beginning when Gods presence was actually there)
Sadly I think people today miss the picture that spoke. Where the children of Israel could not approach the presence of God. The death spiritually that mankind suffered.
I learned this many years ago at the Bethesda baptist Church in Columbus ohio (sadly it is no longer there)
A man is born a dichotomus (spelling?) being. He has a body and soul, His spirit is dead.
After a man is born again, he becomes a trichotymus (spelling?) being (body soul and spirit) as his spirit is made alive.
The soul in scripture is called a worm. Jesus said the worm will never die (speaking of those who go to hell)
The soul is made alive at the moment of birth. Yet the spirit is dead.
In adam All Die. One must be born again, it is the spirit that must be made alive.
I hope this helps.
I can only assume, you also do not understand what it means to be seperated from the father (spiritually dead)IF Jesus dies spiritually, how and when did he get born again alive?
If every person is born spiritually alive, Then they would not need to be born again.The idea of being spiritually dead, is not that a person's spirit no longer exists or functions. It means that sin has brought the curse upon that person so that they cannot know God as their redeemer. This is why Paul reminds us that no one seeks God in Romans 3, or that God has mercy on whom he wills in Romans 9. This is why Jesus tells Nicodemus that you must be born again in John 3 and why Paul says thay God makes a person alive with Christ in Ephesians 2.
Every person is born with an eternal spirit that will not be extinguished. It is cursed by the fall and eternal damnation is its destiny outside of God's gracious choice to take it and give it eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.
It seems you have a misunderstanding.
I have been to about 10 baptist churches in my life. In ohio, Michigan, Texas, Massachusetts’s and every one of them believe mankind was born physically alive, but spiritually dead. And that when they come to christ in faith. They are made alive (spiritually) in christ.I have read many Baptist and reformed theologies, and have NEVER read in an y them that Jesus died spiritually upon that Cross!
Your definition of spiritually dead seems to be different than how I am defining it. In this discussion, I have understood you to be saying that Jesus spirit was killed. Hence spiritually dead. I understood that you were claiming the spirit which God gave man is killed.If every person is born spiritually alive, Then they would not need to be born again.
I take it you of the fatalistic view of salvation? That might explain things. Although, even they believe in eternal security. So I am still confused why you can not see the picture.
Spiritual death is just a term, it means seperated from God
One must be made alive to be born again. That birth is spiritual birth
It has nothing to do with the soul.
The penalty of sin is death. If jesus did not pay that debt we owe. We are still dead in our sin.
Correct. This is not what I am saying. Mans spirit was not killed. We are born spiritually dead in adam,Your definition of spiritually dead seems to be different than how I am defining it. In this discussion, I have understood you to be saying that Jesus spirit was killed. Hence spiritually dead. I understood that you were claiming the spirit which God gave man is killed.
I was thinking this morning that our defenition of spiritual death is different, and in that we are at odds. I think you are trying to look at the spirit as something different than I am, and trying to see this spiritual death as something being anialated or destructive or killed. Thats not the case.Perhaps you are not saying this and therefore our terms are at odds.
When the Bible says we were dead in our trespasses and sins, it is referring to the curse which condemned us and killed thus we are dead men walking. The penalty was secure.
But when God made us alive, this means that the gracious pardon of God is given to us because Jesus took the curse of sin.
Neither Jesus spirit, nor our spirit were killed. But the curse of sin was paid for in the sacrificial atonement of Jesus upon the cross.
Do we agree?
Yes, we were using different definitions. I came in on your dialogue with Yeshua1 (I forget what he is now calling himself) and caught it in the middle. From that dialogue, I took your definition to be the actual death of a persons God created spirit. But you are using it as a separation between God and man due to the curse. Therefore, when Jesus took our sins upon himself, he became the curse that had made us dead in our trespasses and sins.Correct. This is not what I am saying. Mans spirit was not killed. We are born spiritually dead in adam,
I was thinking this morning that our defenition of spiritual death is different, and in that we are at odds. I think you are trying to look at the spirit as something different than I am, and trying to see this spiritual death as something being anialated or destructive or killed. Thats not the case.
Spiritual death just means separation from God. The curse/ penalty of sin was death. It was not physical death, so it had to be another type of death. The only other type of death I have ever heard of, was spiritual death, or separation of our spirit from God.
To me, when the Bible says we are dead in tresspasses and sin, it speaks of the spiritual death all mankind was born in due to the sin of adam, and eventually earned when they too sinned. It means we are seperated from God. There is a barrier. And that barrier can not be broken without payment Gods justice demands a payment, and Gods love can not over rule his justice. But it did pave a way.
God suffered the curse (spiritual; death) on our behalf as the price of redemption. So our spirit could be made alive, and do what it was designed to do. Relate and have fellowship with God
The spirit of a mans being was created to have fellowship with God. That relationship was broken in the garden of Eden, As God is holy, and just and can not fellowship with sin.
When our sin was placed on Jesus, He too suffered the curse in our place. As God is holy and can not relate with sin, So he had to turn his back and “forsake” the son, who was made sin.
I know when I was first really explained this situation and what happened. It brought the cross to a new lLight. It explained why in one second. A man who was beaten so bad, yet spoke not a word. In a moment started screaming (the hebrew has in it the sense that jesus was screaming in pain, The crowd even noticed a huge change, and it got dark.)
It was at this time, the HS left him, And Jesus cried, because for the first time in history of eternal history, Jesus was seperated from the father and spirit. As they could not look on him at sin,
That, is what God did to pay for my sin. And I am eternally Grateful for what he did.
No one on earth can fathom what that is like. We have never experienced an eternal oneness with God that I am not sure even the angels have experienced. Then to have that taken away even for a few short hours must have felt like an eternity!
Jesus is one aspect of the trinity
If the other two aspects of the trinity (forsake) the third member, because our sin was placed in his body.
The third member spiritually died (was spiritually seperated from the father and the Holy Spirit)
This is exactly what happened.
Or you have no comprehension of what the trinity isAn "aspect of the Trinity"?
God cannot be separated from Himself.
Congratulations, you just destroyed the Trinity.