Mary always a virgin?

[canadyjd]

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God; this one was in the beginning with God; John 1:1,2 YLT
having known that, not with corruptible things -- silver or gold -- were ye redeemed from your foolish behaviour delivered by fathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and unspotted -- Christ's -- foreknown, indeed, before the foundation of the world, and manifested in the last times because of you, 1 Peter 1:18-20
the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness is on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters, Gen 1:2 YLT

When God said, "Let there be Light," how was the Word going to be made flesh? How was the Word going to shed, the life of the flesh is in the blood, for redemption, for atonement?
At that moment, "Let there be Light," where was, Rev 12:9 the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, --- the one spoken of here, Acts 26:18 YLT to open their eyes, to turn from darkness to light, and the authority of the Adversary (Satan) unto God,

What was the darkness and light spoken of in Gen 1:2,3?

Was it going require woman, taken from man created in the image of God? Let there be Light. What is God about to do about Satan the Adversary?

Gen 3:15 and enmity I put between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; he doth bruise thee -- the head, and thou dost bruise him -- the heel.' ------ Is the Christ of her seed?

And on his thinking of these things, lo, a messenger of the Lord in a dream appeared to him, saying, 'Joseph, son of David, thou mayest not fear to receive Mary thy wife, for that which in her was begotten is of the Holy Spirit,
------------------------------------------------------------- γὰρ ἐν αὐτῇ γεννηθὲν ἐκ πνεύματός ἐστιν ἁγίου
-------------------------------------------------------------- for in her generated out of Spirit is Holy
You see the same thing in Luke 1:35 where the angel told Mary--- καὶ τὸ γεννώμενον ἅγιον κληθήσεται υἱὸς θεοῦ
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- also the, being generated out of you Holy shall be called Son of God

How could the Word made flesh, be conceived and brought forth of woman and be Holy? Or as 1 Peter 1:19 states, unblemished and unspotted?

Matt 1:23 'Lo, the virgin shall conceive, and she (the virgin) shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel,' which is, being interpreted 'With us he is God.' The virgin, shall bring forth.

I would like to add the following just for thought.

Was the woman taken from the man, a virgin?
And they are both of them naked, the man and his wife, and they are not ashamed of themselves. Gen 2:25
What and why did Eve say this and what does, one believe, she thought relative to this child she had brought forth?
Gen 4:1 YLT and also Darby
And the man knew Eve his wife, and she conceiveth and beareth Cain, and saith, 'I have gotten a man by Jehovah;'
And Man knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bore Cain, and said, I have acquired a man with Jehovah.

'Lo, the virgin shall conceive, and she shall bring forth --- Even if conceived, Holy, what would prevent bringing forth, Holy?

And Joseph, having risen from the sleep, did as the messenger of the Lord directed him, and received his wife, (in her conceived, out of Spirit is Holy) and did not know her till she brought forth her son ( Holy, unblemished and unspotted ) the first-born, and he called his name Jesus.

Gen 3:6 YLT And the woman seeth that the tree is good for food, and that it is pleasant to the eyes, and the tree is desirable to make one wise, and she taketh of its fruit and eateth, and giveth also to her husband with her, and he doth eat;
Gen 3:7 YLT and the eyes of them both are opened, and they know that they are naked, and they sew fig-leaves, and make to themselves girdles.
James 1:14,15 and each one is tempted, by his own desires being led away and enticed, afterward the desire having conceived, doth give birth to sin, and the sin having been perfected, doth bring forth death.

What did Adam see and desire? Anything that could cause not to bring forth, Holy?

I’m sure all that makes perfect sense to you. Why not condense it down to two or three short sentences to summarize your point?

peace to you

 

[percho]

I’m sure all that makes perfect sense to you. Why not condense it down to two or three short sentences to summarize your point?

peace to you

Rev 12:9 the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan,

Where was the one, in the verse above, at the following moment? the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness is on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters, Gen 1:2 YLT

1 John 3:8 YLT he who is doing the sin, of the devil he is, because from the beginning the devil doth sin; for this was the Son of God manifested, that he may break up the works of the devil;

At the moment of Gen 1:2 was the devil already a sinner, did he already have some type of authority on the earth, did he already have works which were credited to him?

At that, very moment Gen 1:2, what was the God going to do about the devil and his works ? Would it require for there to be man, made a little lower than the angels, yet created in the image of God and would it require for woman to be taken from man?

 

[percho]

Another thought.

Heb 2:5 For not to messengers (angels) did He subject the coming world (inhabited earth), concerning which we speak,

What about this present inhabited earth, The reason I posted from Daniel 10.

Did the devil, at the moment of Gen 1:2, possess the following power? Heb 2:14 YLT Seeing, then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, he himself also in like manner did take part of the same, that through death he might destroy him having the power of death -- that is, the devil --

 

[Oseas3]

About 6,000 years have passed, we are in the beginning of the first century of the seventh and last millennium, the millnnium of Christ, the millennium of Judgment, the Judgment Seat of Christ, and the Day of Vengeance. In fact, JESUS is the ONE, yes, the only ONE, who was not born of the Devil.

John 3:v.5 to 7
5 Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

 

[Marooncat79]

Obviously, given the Biblical text, Mary did bare other children.
I never understood why the RCC found it necessary to promulgate the fallacy of her perpetual virginity

 

[canadyjd]

Rev 12:9 the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan,

Where was the one, in the verse above, at the following moment? the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness is on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters, Gen 1:2 YLT

1 John 3:8 YLT he who is doing the sin, of the devil he is, because from the beginning the devil doth sin; for this was the Son of God manifested, that he may break up the works of the devil;

At the moment of Gen 1:2 was the devil already a sinner, did he already have some type of authority on the earth, did he already have works which were credited to him?

At that, very moment Gen 1:2, what was the God going to do about the devil and his works ? Would it require for there to be man, made a little lower than the angels, yet created in the image of God and would it require for woman to be taken from man?

We don’t know because scripture does not tell us.

peace to you

 

[rstrats]

[QUOTE="VDMA,

It is unlikely that Jesus would entrust his Mother to the Apostle John at his Crucifixion if she had other natural sons to care for her (Jn 19:26–27).







[/QUOTE]

Not that it makes any difference to the point you're trying to make, but how do you know it was the apostle John?

 

[Marooncat79]

Maybe They weren’t believers until the resurrection

it’s an irrelevant argument

 

[AustinC]

Matthew 1:24-25
When Joseph woke up, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded and took Mary as his wife. But he did not have sexual relations with her until her son was born. And Joseph named him Jesus.

 

[percho]

and, confessedly, great is the secret of piety -- God was manifested in flesh, declared righteous in spirit, seen by messengers, preached among nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory 1 Tim 3:8 YLT
But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born [fn] (or, made) of a woman, born under the law, Gal 4:4 NKJV
he who is doing the sin, of the devil he is, because from the beginning the devil doth sin; for this was the Son of God manifested, (in flesh, see above) that he may break up the works of the devil; 1 John 3:8 YLT

Lo, in iniquity I have been brought forth, And in sin doth my mother conceive me. Ps 51:5 --- Is virginity adulterated in order for conception?

Question did a single egg, of the virgin, Mary, (the seed of the woman?) become conceived out of Spirit from God, that divided to become a baby?

What, was necessary for the woman, Mary, to conceive and to bring forth, the Son of God, God, manifest in flesh?

Would it be necessary for, her, to remain as that, for the rest of her life, in order for the one she conceived and brought forth to be the Son of God, God manifest in flesh, to destroy the works of the devil?

 

[percho]

1 Cor 15:26 The last enemy shall be destroyed, death.

From 1 John 3:8 For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. - Including the devil himself according to Heb 2:14

HOW?
and the God of the peace shall bruise the Adversary under your feet in quickness; the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen! Rom 16:20
WHEN? -------------------------------------------- Does that have anything to do with, the redemption the body, Rom 8:20 1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. ----- Does that describe, in quickness?

This was going to take place before Adam was created and the woman was taken from him. It was going to take place because the devil already was and already had been doing works. That is why darkness was upon the face of the deep.

The virgin was necessary only unto the Son of God being brought forth from her. After that it did not matter.

 

[Eliyahu]

so Jesus Christ is not really "human", as the God-Man? Where did He get his "human nature" from?

He has got the human nature from Himself. Adam was created in the likeness of Jesus the Son of God ( Genesis 1:26-28) Jesus had the human nature to eat the meals offered by Abraham ( Gen 18:1-) That's why Jesus said Abraham anticipated His days and finally saw it ( John 8:56-58)

Eliyahu

 

[Eliyahu]

Then you disagree with the word of God.
Genesis 3:15, ". . . And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. . . ."
Galatians 4:4, ". . . But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, . . ."

Wrong!
You misunderstand Gen 3:15

And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

זֶרַע zera can mean biological seed but also can mean any descendants.
If you deny this, then did any snakes kill Jesus on the cross? Were the high Priests and elders the reptiles?
In other words, Gen 3:15 is a declaration for the future and it meant the Messiah will come thru a woman, not thru a rock or animal.

Gal 4:4 uses Ginomai verb which is like become or come out. It didn't mean that woman's ovum was used as it doesn't mean any Conception.
Woman was the channel for Messiah to come to this world.

Jesus had the memory about Moses ( John 5:43-46) and about Abraham ( John 8:56-58)
Jesus lived at the time of Moses and Abraham, and King David. Jesus carried such memory with Him when he came into this world.
If Mary's ovum and the sperm of Holy Spirit were used, such memory couldn't be carried but they would have formed a new person with the new brain.

Jesus showed up from the beginning of Bereshit ( Genesis) as Elohim is the plural but used the singular verb. All human fleshes were created in the likeness of Jesus by Jesus Himself ( Col 1:16-) All humanity of Jesus came from Himself. Jesus was the second Adam who doesn't belong to the first Adam.
Mary was just a surrogate mother whose DNA has nothing to do with Jesus' DNA.

Jesus had the Father, but had NO Mother
Therefore we can clearly say:

Son of God has the Father but No mother.

Eliyahu

 

[Eliyahu]

Remember Jesus Christ, raised out of the dead, of the seed of David, according to my good news, 2 Tim 2:8 YLT
and to Abraham were the promises spoken, and to his seed; He doth not say, 'And to seeds,' as of many, but as of one, 'And to thy seed,' which is Christ; Gal 3:16 YLT

Reconcile to your thoughts.

Any descendants, including any step children or adopted children can be called the seed of someone.
Jesus came as a Jew but it doesn't mean that He is not the Creator of all nations.
Jesus came into this world as a descendant of David which doesn't deny the Mary's being the surrogate mother.
Mary's ovum didn't become a part of Jesus human embryo.
If Jesus inherited 50% DNA from Mary and 50% from Holy Spirit, Jesus couldn't be a perfect Son of God.
I can never imagine Holy Spirit generate the sperm to be fertilized with the human ovum.
Jesus Himself had the body to eat the meal ( Gen 18:1-), showed up to Manoah the father of Samson, showed up to Jacob and wrestled with him displacing the bone of Jacob ( Gen 32:25). Where is the flesh of Jesus gone? It became minimized into the human embryo and was born into the body of Mary ( Mt 1:20) and came out of her later ( Mt 1:25). That was the Job done by the Holy Spirit.

Eliyahu

 

[Eliyahu]

Gen 3:15 and enmity I put between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; he doth bruise thee -- the head, and thou dost bruise him -- the heel.' ------ Is the Christ of her seed?

Please note that Jesus wasn't bruised by the snakes. No snake was involved in the trials and crucifixion of Jesus. The Seed here was the symbol for the descendants belonging to Satan.
Likewise, Zera of Woman here doesn't mean the biological descendant of the woman Eve, but any type of descendants coming in the form of human being.
Jesus was killed by the high priests as the lamb was killed by the high priests.
So the high priests were not the biological descendants of the serpent and the seed of woman didn't mean the biological descendant of the woman.
So, Jesus who had the flesh before His coming into this world had His own flesh which is perfect without blemish without spots because He inherited nothing from the sinful Adam's race.
The Angel who wrestled with Jacob had a flesh an body ( Genesis 32:25) which had nothing to do with Mary. That body came into this world.
Mary was just a surrogate mother.
Son of God has the Father, but NO mother.

Eliyahu

 

[37818]

Wrong!
You misunderstand Gen 3:15

And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

זֶרַע zera can mean biological seed but also can mean any descendants.
If you deny this, then did any snakes kill Jesus on the cross? Were the high Priests and elders the reptiles?
In other words, Gen 3:15 is a declaration for the future and it meant the Messiah will come thru a woman, not thru a rock or animal.

Gal 4:4 uses Ginomai verb which is like become or come out. It didn't mean that woman's ovum was used as it doesn't mean any Conception.
Woman was the channel for Messiah to come to this world.

Jesus had the memory about Moses ( John 5:43-46) and about Abraham ( John 8:56-58)
Jesus lived at the time of Moses and Abraham, and King David. Jesus carried such memory with Him when he came into this world.
If Mary's ovum and the sperm of Holy Spirit were used, such memory couldn't be carried but they would have formed a new person with the new brain.

Jesus showed up from the beginning of Bereshit ( Genesis) as Elohim is the plural but used the singular verb. All human fleshes were created in the likeness of Jesus by Jesus Himself ( Col 1:16-) All humanity of Jesus came from Himself. Jesus was the second Adam who doesn't belong to the first Adam.
Mary was just a surrogate mother whose DNA has nothing to do with Jesus' DNA.

Jesus had the Father, but had NO Mother
Therefore we can clearly say:

Son of God has the Father but No mother.

Eliyahu

You are so very wrong. Genesis 3:15, ". . . her seed . . . ." Galatians 4:4, ". . . his Son, made of a woman, . . ."

 

[Eliyahu]

You are so very wrong. Genesis 3:15, ". . . her seed . . . ." Galatians 4:4, ". . . his Son, made of a woman, . . ."

You are narrow minded:
Strong 2233 for Zera

1. seed, sowing, offspring
   1. a sowing
      
      
   2. seed
      
      
   3. semen virile
      
      
   4. offspring, descendants, posterity, children
      
      
   5. of moral quality
      1. a practitioner of righteousness (fig.)
   6. sowing time (by meton)

Any offspring including the adopted child is Zera.

Children, Descendants mean the human being already. This was the form in which Jesus was settled inside Mary. Sperm or Ovum is neither the children nor the descendants.

You are insisting that Jesus is the biological son of Mary, which is claimed by RCC and Islam.

Do you believe that the seed of the serpent killed Jesus and therefore there were many snakes around the Cross?
Gal 4: 4 doesn't mention the conception but the coming out of woman
I explained enough

Eliyahu

 

[37818]

You are narrow minded:

Absolutely. Truth is narrow.

 

[37818]

Gal 4: 4 doesn't mention the conception but the coming out of woman

False. It says "made out of a woman."

 

[Walter]

Understanding Mary’s Perpetual Virginity – St. Paul Center

As to the question if Mary was without the stain of Original Sin? Is it possible for God to dwell in an unclean temple (Mary's womb)?

Yes, 'All have sinned and come short of the glory of God'. Even Mary referred to Jesus as her savior. That does not mean she could not have been a pure vessel before His birth. Also, remember that there are always exceptions in the bible. Explain Enoch (was he a sinner?) It is appointed unto man once to die and after that the judgement. Explain Elijah (did he die?)