Mary and the recent Papal teaching

[Walter]

I wasn't talking to another Baptist, I asked Walter the question.

What is your reason for associating the deity part of Christ with MaGod's?

YOU are the one making that accusation! When you said nobody would refer to her as 'the Mother of the Son of God' without associating her as being a part of creating His Divinity' I showed you the ridiculousness of that statement by quoting another Baptist.

Elizabeth acknowledged Mary as the Mother of her Lord, how about you?

 

[Charlie24]

YOU are the one making that accusation! When you said nobody would refer to her as 'the Mother of the Son of God' without associating her as being a part of creating His Divinity' I showed you the ridiculousness of that statement by quoting another Baptist.

Elizabeth acknowledged Mary as the Mother of her Lord, how about you?

I would like to know what the mother of the Son of God means to you, Walter.

Do you see Mary as an intercessor of sorts as some Catholics do?

I only see a woman blessed by God to be chosen to bear the Son of God.

What do you see?

 

[Walter]

I would like to know what the mother of the Son of God means to you, Walter.

Do you see Mary as an intercessor of sorts as some Catholics do?

I only see a woman blessed by God to be chosen to bear the Son of God.

What do you see?

Asking Mary for intercession is asking her to pray to Jesus on your behalf, a practice seen as similar to you asking a person here in this life to pray for you. Catholics believe this is valid because we believe Mary is the spiritual mother of all Christians and has a unique relationship with Jesus, making her intercession potentially very effective. This tradition dates back to the early Church, as seen in the biblical account at the Wedding at Cana and in early Christian writings.

 

[canadyjd]

Do any of the Catholics that post here consider Mary to be a co redeemer. If so, what is your response to this pronouncement?

Will you change your mind based on what the Pope has stated. If not, why not? If yes, why, if you are convinced she is co redeemer, would you change your beliefs now?

My understanding, and I’m not Catholic so correct me if I’m wrong, is Pope John Paul believed she was co redeemer stated the same.

If these two Popes are teaching exactly the opposite things does that not put into question the belief of Papal infallibility?

Please explain while I wait patiently.

Peace to you

 

[Charlie24]

Asking Mary for intercession is asking her to pray to Jesus on your behalf, a practice seen as similar to you asking a person here in this life to pray for you. Catholics believe this is valid because we believe Mary is the spiritual mother of all Christians and has a unique relationship with Jesus, making her intercession potentially very effective. This tradition dates back to the early Church, as seen in the biblical account at the Wedding at Cana and in early Christian writings.

Does the Scripture tell us to pray to the dead saints?

Paul did much more for Christ than Mary ever dreamed, should I pray to him also?

 

[Charlie24]

Do any of the Catholics that post here consider Mary to be a co redeemer. If so, what is your response to this pronouncement?

Will you change your mind based on what the Pope has stated. If not, why not? If yes, why, if you are convinced she is co redeemer, would you change your beliefs now?

My understanding, and I’m not Catholic so correct me if I’m wrong, is Pope John Paul believed she was co redeemer stated the same.

If these two Popes are teaching exactly the opposite things does that not put into question the belief of Papal infallibility?

Please explain while I wait patiently.

Peace to you

You'll need a lot of patience waiting for that answer.

 

[Walter]

You'll need a lot of patience waiting for that answer.

You are ignorant on what constitutes 'papal infallibility'' so get off your high horse. No infallible pronouncement has been made in many years.

Since I am gone for the rest of the day, here is a short read about the intercession of saints who are alive in Christ, BTW:

Magazine

Praying to Dead Folks​

Tim Staples • 3/17/2013



Listen to the audio version of this content
In a previous post, I talked about the problem of how a saint in heaven could hear the prayers of multiple people praying to him at the same time. In his book, Answers to Catholic Claims, A Discussion of Biblical Authority, James White attempts to make that discussion a moot point when he says there shouldn’t be any of this praying to dead folks to begin with:

The Bible strongly condemns communication with the dead. It does not matter if those who died were good or bad, saintly or evil, there is to be no communication between the living and the dead. The only communication with spirit beings that originates with man that is allowed in Scripture is that of prayer to God and He alone.

Biblical texts like Deut. 18:10-11 and Isaiah 19:3—each of which condemns necromancy—are employed to say “communication with the dead” is condemned absolutely.

Actually, what is being condemned in these texts from Deuteronomy and Isaiah is conjuring up the dead through wizards and mediums, not praying to saints. The Church has always condemned this. Mediums attempt to conjure up spirits and manipulate the spiritual realm at will. This is categorically different from Christians asking for the intercession of their brothers and sisters in Christ. We do not “conjure up” or manipulate anything or anyone. True prayer—whether to God or the angels and saints—changes the pray-er, not the pray-ee.
If one says recklessly as Mr. White said, “… there is to be no communication between the living and the dead,” where does this leave Jesus? He is clearly guilty according to Luke 9:29-31:

And as [Jesus] was praying, the appearance of his countenance was altered, and his raiment became dazzling white. And behold, two men talked with him, Moses and Elijah, who appeared in glory and spoke of his departure, which he was to accomplish at Jerusalem.

According to Deuteronomy 34:5, Moses was dead. And yet Jesus was communicating with him and Elijah about the most important event in human history—the redemption. Obviously, Jesus does not agree with Mr. White.

First Contact​

There is another point to White’s argument that requires a deeper level of response. Notice, he said, “The only communication with spirit beings that originates with man that is allowed in Scripture is that of prayer to God and He alone.” This point taken alone would not exclude communicating with the dead in any context. It would only exclude such communication if contact originates from the earth dweller.
In one sense, it seems Mr. White, as well as our Protestant friends he represents by his statement, is stuck in an Old Testament mindset. It is true that we do not see Old Covenant faithful initiating prayer to the dearly departed, but this is to be expected because the faithful dead before Christ and the beatific vision afforded by him would not have had the power to either hear or respond to those prayers. Moreover, the Old Covenant People of God did not have the developed understanding of the after-life that only came with the Revelation of Christ.
Jesus Christ introduces a radical development the Old Covenant saints could not have imagined when he clearly initiates the communication with the faithful departed unlike anything we saw in the Old Testament. I say “clearly” because even Protestant Apologist Eric Svendsen seems to see it, though I’m not sure how cognizant he was of the ramifications of this statement he made about the Transfiguration in his book, Evangelical Answers:

The transfiguration was an apocalyptic event choreographed directly by the Son of God to give the apostles a glimpse of his eschatological glory…

If Jesus “choreographed” it, then he initiated it. Some may say, “Well, he’s God, so he can do that.” Yes, he is. But he is also fully man and we are called to imitate him. If Jesus initiated communication with the dead, there is no reason to believe followers of Jesus cannot do the same. This is precisely what we mean as Catholics when we say we “pray to the saints.”

The Bible Says So​

The New Testament presents to us very plain examples of the faithful on earth initiating communication with the saints in heaven. First, we have Hebrews 11-12. Chapter 11 gives us what I call the “hall of faith” wherein the lives of many of the Old Testament saints are recounted. Then, the inspired author encourages these to whom he referred earlier as a people who were being persecuted for their faith (10:32-35), to consider that they are “surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses,” encouraging them to “run the race” of faith set before them. Then, beginning in 12:18, he encourages these New Covenant faithful by reminding them that their covenant—the New Covenant—is far superior to the Old:

For you have not come to what may be touched, a blazing fire … darkness … gloom … and the sound of a trumpet, and a voice whose words made the hearers entreat that no further messages be spoken to them…
But you have come to… the city of the living God… and to innumerable angels… and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven… and to… God… and to the spirits of just men made perfect… and to Jesus…

Notice, in the Old Covenant the faithful approached God alone and with trepidation. But in the New Covenant, the faithful have experienced a radical change for the better. “But you have come to … and to … and to … and to.” In the same way we can initiate prayer and in so doing “come to” God and Jesus, we can also “come to” the angels and “the spirits of just men made perfect.” Those would be the saints in heaven. In the fellowship of the saints, we have the aid and encouragement of the whole family of God.
The Book of Revelation gives us an even better description of this communication between heaven and earth:

The twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints … the elders fell down and worshipped (5:8-14).

These “elders” are offering the prayers of the faithful symbolized by incense filtering upward from the earth to heaven. And because they are seen receiving these prayers, we can reasonably conclude they were both directed to these saints in heaven and that they were initiated by the faithful living on earth. We also see this same phenomenon being performed by the angels in Revelation 8:3-4:

And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.

The bottom line is this: Both the faithful on earth and our brothers and sisters in heaven (and let’s not forget our “cousins,” the angels) are all acting just as Catholics would expect. Believers on earth are initiating prayers which the saints and angels in heaven are receiving. Is this the necromancy condemned in Deuteronomy and Isaiah? Absolutely not! This is New Testament Christianity.

 

[Charlie24]

You are ignorant on what constitutes 'papal infallibility'' so get off your high horse. No infallible pronouncement has been made in many years.

Since I am gone for the rest of the day, here is a short read about the intercession of saints who are alive in Christ, BTW:

Magazine

Praying to Dead Folks​

Tim Staples • 3/17/2013



Listen to the audio version of this content
In a previous post, I talked about the problem of how a saint in heaven could hear the prayers of multiple people praying to him at the same time. In his book, Answers to Catholic Claims, A Discussion of Biblical Authority, James White attempts to make that discussion a moot point when he says there shouldn’t be any of this praying to dead folks to begin with:

Biblical texts like Deut. 18:10-11 and Isaiah 19:3—each of which condemns necromancy—are employed to say “communication with the dead” is condemned absolutely.

Actually, what is being condemned in these texts from Deuteronomy and Isaiah is conjuring up the dead through wizards and mediums, not praying to saints. The Church has always condemned this. Mediums attempt to conjure up spirits and manipulate the spiritual realm at will. This is categorically different from Christians asking for the intercession of their brothers and sisters in Christ. We do not “conjure up” or manipulate anything or anyone. True prayer—whether to God or the angels and saints—changes the pray-er, not the pray-ee.
If one says recklessly as Mr. White said, “… there is to be no communication between the living and the dead,” where does this leave Jesus? He is clearly guilty according to Luke 9:29-31:

According to Deuteronomy 34:5, Moses was dead. And yet Jesus was communicating with him and Elijah about the most important event in human history—the redemption. Obviously, Jesus does not agree with Mr. White.

First Contact​

There is another point to White’s argument that requires a deeper level of response. Notice, he said, “The only communication with spirit beings that originates with man that is allowed in Scripture is that of prayer to God and He alone.” This point taken alone would not exclude communicating with the dead in any context. It would only exclude such communication if contact originates from the earth dweller.
In one sense, it seems Mr. White, as well as our Protestant friends he represents by his statement, is stuck in an Old Testament mindset. It is true that we do not see Old Covenant faithful initiating prayer to the dearly departed, but this is to be expected because the faithful dead before Christ and the beatific vision afforded by him would not have had the power to either hear or respond to those prayers. Moreover, the Old Covenant People of God did not have the developed understanding of the after-life that only came with the Revelation of Christ.
Jesus Christ introduces a radical development the Old Covenant saints could not have imagined when he clearly initiates the communication with the faithful departed unlike anything we saw in the Old Testament. I say “clearly” because even Protestant Apologist Eric Svendsen seems to see it, though I’m not sure how cognizant he was of the ramifications of this statement he made about the Transfiguration in his book, Evangelical Answers:

If Jesus “choreographed” it, then he initiated it. Some may say, “Well, he’s God, so he can do that.” Yes, he is. But he is also fully man and we are called to imitate him. If Jesus initiated communication with the dead, there is no reason to believe followers of Jesus cannot do the same. This is precisely what we mean as Catholics when we say we “pray to the saints.”

The Bible Says So​

The New Testament presents to us very plain examples of the faithful on earth initiating communication with the saints in heaven. First, we have Hebrews 11-12. Chapter 11 gives us what I call the “hall of faith” wherein the lives of many of the Old Testament saints are recounted. Then, the inspired author encourages these to whom he referred earlier as a people who were being persecuted for their faith (10:32-35), to consider that they are “surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses,” encouraging them to “run the race” of faith set before them. Then, beginning in 12:18, he encourages these New Covenant faithful by reminding them that their covenant—the New Covenant—is far superior to the Old:

Notice, in the Old Covenant the faithful approached God alone and with trepidation. But in the New Covenant, the faithful have experienced a radical change for the better. “But you have come to … and to … and to … and to.” In the same way we can initiate prayer and in so doing “come to” God and Jesus, we can also “come to” the angels and “the spirits of just men made perfect.” Those would be the saints in heaven. In the fellowship of the saints, we have the aid and encouragement of the whole family of God.
The Book of Revelation gives us an even better description of this communication between heaven and earth:

These “elders” are offering the prayers of the faithful symbolized by incense filtering upward from the earth to heaven. And because they are seen receiving these prayers, we can reasonably conclude they were both directed to these saints in heaven and that they were initiated by the faithful living on earth. We also see this same phenomenon being performed by the angels in Revelation 8:3-4:

The bottom line is this: Both the faithful on earth and our brothers and sisters in heaven (and let’s not forget our “cousins,” the angels) are all acting just as Catholics would expect. Believers on earth are initiating prayers which the saints and angels in heaven are receiving. Is this the necromancy condemned in Deuteronomy and Isaiah? Absolutely not! This is New Testament Christianity.

I'm not on a high horse, I'm on the Word of God.

There is only one Mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus.

This intercession of dead saints for the living on this earth is not Biblical.

You can get upset, that's ok, you can reason and manipulate the Scripture, but it's not there.

 

[37818]

Never said He ever ceased to be the Son of God. He is the Alpha and Omega. That's my point. You have people posting here saying Mary was not Mother to the Son of God, only 'the human Jesus' as if His Divinity was absent at his birth. So many Baptists are intent on making Mary a person who should not be honored in any way. She said the perfect yes to God. 'Be it done unto me according to Thy will'.
Again, Elizabeth referred to the Blessed Virgin as 'the Mother of my Lord'.

Being a human decendant of David.
Luke 20:41-44, And he said unto them, How say they that Christ is David's son? And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Till I make thine enemies thy footstool. David therefore calleth him Lord, how is he then his son?

 

[JesusFan]

That practice is abomin

Asking Mary for intercession is asking her to pray to Jesus on your behalf, a practice seen as similar to you asking a person here in this life to pray for you. Catholics believe this is valid because we believe Mary is the spiritual mother of all Christians and has a unique relationship with Jesus, making her intercession potentially very effective. This tradition dates back to the early Church, as seen in the biblical account at the Wedding at Cana and in early Christian writings.

ation to God, as Mary can do NOTHING for anyone in heaven, as we deal ONLY with the Trinity, never any created beings

 

[Cathode]

I'm glad you did, Cathode!

I would like to hear your general thoughts on the Popes statement.

Nothing has changed really.

Mary is a creature as we have always believed.

 

[Charlie24]

Nothing has changed really.

Mary is a creature as we have always believed.

Hey Cathode, glad to hear from you!

Things got a little heated with Walter but I don't expect that with you.

Go figure I guess, I don't know what happened to be honest. It just goes there sometimes.

I would like for you to know I have the utmost respect for Mary. It's my understanding there were many young virgins in Israel in those days, but God chose her, and for a good reason I'm sure.

My respect goes as far as the Scripture, the facts of what I can read directly from the Word.

Taking that in account I believe Pope Leo made a huge and correct statement.

When I first read it you came to mind, I thought how does Cathode feel about this.

Even though we disagree quite often, I do consider you a reliable source in Catholicism.

 

[Cathode]

Do any of the Catholics that post here consider Mary to be a co redeemer. If so, what is your response to this pronouncement?

Will you change your mind based on what the Pope has stated. If not, why not? If yes, why, if you are convinced she is co redeemer, would you change your beliefs now?

My understanding, and I’m not Catholic so correct me if I’m wrong, is Pope John Paul believed she was co redeemer stated the same.

If these two Popes are teaching exactly the opposite things does that not put into question the belief of Papal infallibility?

Please explain while I wait patiently.

Peace to you

We are all co redeemers in one sense, but this is qualified. We are all saviours but this is also qualified.

We are subordinate to Christ's unique work, because it is only through Jesus unique work that any are saved.

Christ operates, we co operate with Him, we can do nothing of ourselves.

 

[Cathode]

Hey Cathode, glad to hear from you!

Things got a little heated with Walter but I don't expect that with you.

Go figure I guess, I don't know what happened to be honest. It just goes there sometimes.

I would like for you to know I have the utmost respect for Mary. It's my understanding there were many young virgins in Israel in those days, but God chose her, and for a good reason I'm sure.

My respect goes as far as the Scripture, the facts of what I can read directly from the Word.

Taking that in account I believe Pope Leo made a huge and correct statement.

When I first read it you came to mind, I thought how does Cathode feel about this.

Even though we disagree quite often, I do consider you a reliable source in Catholicism.

I was surprised that many in protestantism were so surprised at the document

Ejection of specific titles: The document explicitly rejects titles like "co-redemptrix" and "co-mediatrix" because they risk "eclipsing the exclusive role of Jesus Christ" as the sole Savior.
Emphasis on Jesus as the sole redeemer: It reaffirms the central Christian teaching that salvation was achieved solely through the crucifixion and death of Jesus Christ.
Clarification of Mary's role: Mary's role is clarified as that of a spiritual mother who guides believers to Jesus. The document supports using titles like "Mother of the Faithful People" to reflect this role.
Purification of Marian devotion: The document is a pastoral effort to correct misunderstandings and extreme devotional practices, particularly those spread on social media.
Purpose: The goal is not to diminish Marian devotion but to "purify it" and ensure it always leads back to Christ, reinforcing that Mary is the first disciple who shows how to say "yes" to God.

The end result of devotion to Mary is to lead to Christ.

This is a pastoral clarification more than anything. And I think it is more for simplicity. Many aren't sophisticated enough to be nuanced, so it is made very simple. Which is good.

I also notice many things are being simplified to bring eastern and western Churches together, as with the recent gathering at Nicea after 1700 years. It seems that anything that may present an obstacle to unity is being simplified.

The Church under Pope Leo is unifying, and I think clarifications like this help the Church unify.

 

[Ascetic X]

There is not one single Bible verse that permits or encourages us to pray to any entity other than God. Not to angels, or departed loved ones, or deceased saints, or Mary, or Joseph, or Moses, or Elijah, or Isaiah, or St. Anthony, or the Apostle Paul.

No one in Acts or church epistles prayed to any saints or Mary. Jesus said we can go directly to the Father in His name. How would going through Mary or saints be any more effective?

Communicating with the dead is the abomination of necromancy. Asking an alive friend to pray for you is not necromancy.

 

[Charlie24]

I was surprised that many in protestantism were so surprised at the document

Ejection of specific titles: The document explicitly rejects titles like "co-redemptrix" and "co-mediatrix" because they risk "eclipsing the exclusive role of Jesus Christ" as the sole Savior.
Emphasis on Jesus as the sole redeemer: It reaffirms the central Christian teaching that salvation was achieved solely through the crucifixion and death of Jesus Christ.
Clarification of Mary's role: Mary's role is clarified as that of a spiritual mother who guides believers to Jesus. The document supports using titles like "Mother of the Faithful People" to reflect this role.
Purification of Marian devotion: The document is a pastoral effort to correct misunderstandings and extreme devotional practices, particularly those spread on social media.
Purpose: The goal is not to diminish Marian devotion but to "purify it" and ensure it always leads back to Christ, reinforcing that Mary is the first disciple who shows how to say "yes" to God.

The end result of devotion to Mary is to lead to Christ.

This is a pastoral clarification more than anything. And I think it is more for simplicity. Many aren't sophisticated enough to be nuanced, so it is made very simple. Which is good.

I also notice many things are being simplified to bring eastern and western Churches together, as with the recent gathering at Nicea after 1700 years. It seems that anything that may present an obstacle to unity is being simplified.

The Church under Pope Leo is unifying, and I think clarifications like this help the Church unify.

This exceeds my expectations of what I was looking for. I'm going to read this again tomorrow before I reply.

Thank you Cathode for taking the time to expand my knowledge on this document!

I may not agree with some of this, but at least I have a much better understanding of it.

Thanks

 

[Cathode]

There is not one single Bible verse that permits or encourages us to pray to any entity other than God. Not to angels, or departed loved ones, or deceased saints, or Mary, or Joseph, or Moses, or Elijah, or Isaiah, or St. Anthony, or the Apostle Paul.

No one in Acts or church epistles prayed to any saints or Mary. Jesus said we can go directly to the Father in His name. How would going through Mary or saints be any more effective?

Communicating with the dead is the abomination of necromancy. Asking an alive friend to pray for you is not necromancy.

It's important to get definitions right.

Necromancy is summoning or conjuring the dead to gain some special knowledge, which is a totally different thing from taking prayer requests.

Yes all Heaven takes prayer requests, because they are the Living, and 'Asking an alive friend to pray for you is not necromancy.'

 

[JesusFan]

We are all co redeemers in one sense, but this is qualified. We are all saviours but this is also qualified.

We are subordinate to Christ's unique work, because it is only through Jesus unique work that any are saved.

Christ operates, we co operate with Him, we can do nothing of ourselves.

You still see Mary as an Interceder though, as the "queen of heaven?"

 

[JesusFan]

It's important to get definitions right.

Necromancy is summoning or conjuring the dead to gain some special knowledge, which is a totally different thing from taking prayer requests.

Yes all Heaven takes prayer requests, because they are the Living, and 'Asking an alive friend to pray for you is not necromancy.'

ONLY Persons in heaven that take any prayers are Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit period

 

[Walter]

ONLY Persons in heaven that take any prayers are Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit period

Not according to the Bible. Saints hear us and intercede for us. Going back to the Book of Revelation, this is a passage I touched on already, we have the four living creatures, the 24 elders who fall down before the Lord and they’re offering the golden bulls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And that’s critical because here are these, especially the elders, seemingly human in heaven who are not only praying for us but are also offering up our prayers they’re interceding for us with our prayers.