Mary Sightings in History

[Michael Wrenn]

Stop with the "do not understand the term" redirect. The use of the word God in this way includes the entire Trinity. So its use is false. Mary is not the Mother of God the Father nor is she Mother of God the Holy Spirit, nor is she Mother of Jesus deity.

The use of the term is inept and meant to support Mary worship.

No, it does not. "Theotokos" means "God-bearer", referring to the fact that she bore, not conceived, the deity of Jesus.

As shown by Matt Black and me, and many denominations, the term can be rightly understood and used without supporting RC errors about Mary.

 

[saturneptune]

I thought of a statement to irk everyone. Jesus was born fully human and evolved into God as He grew older. The thread has really taken an odd course. For those who take everything seriously, my statement is sarcasm.

I do not think we fully understand the transistion from Christ in eternity past as God to fully man and God at the point of birth. We are told Mary was conceived of the Holy Spirit and gave birth to Jesus Christ, our Savior, fully man and God. He lead a sinless life, died for my sins on the cross, was buried, and rose on the third day to give me eternal life.

The exact details of eternity to the birth of Jesus are not completely known, but we know enough to be with the Lord for eternity. We really do not know what all Mary and Joseph saw Jesus do during his childhood. We get a glimpse with the incident at age twelve. No doubt they saw some unique things. How about the eighteen years we know nothing about? Who knows what He could have done. The Gospel says it was so much it could not all be written down.

The only group that I know that has the concept of God the Father recreating Himself at varioius eons of time is the Mormons. The Catholics believe God has always been, and that includes Christ and the Holy Spirit, the only three (in one) uncreated beings, and the only ones that are due worship and adoration.

I do not know why the person of Mary has to be so complicated. She is just like you or me. God uses us all for His purposes, and we are all sinners. End of story.

Oh, I was wondering, in all of these Mary sightings, did Joseph ever tag along?

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Not what he is saying at all.

It seems to me that's what he is saying, but I'd like to hear from him.

 

[mandym]

No, it does not. "Theotokos" means "God-bearer", referring to the fact that she bore, not conceived, the deity of Jesus.

And the use of the word Mother in that case is incorrect.

As shown by Matt Black and me, and many denominations, the term can be rightly understood and used without supporting RC errors about Mary.

Neither one of you has shown anything other than ineptness.

 

[Matt Black]

You are a man of SECULAR Church history authority/tradition. Where can you find that definition in TRADITION????

Thanks for trying to lable me!

We are talking about HUMAN life at conception not DIVINE life or do you really believe DIVINE life has a conception????

Divine life does not have a conception, however Jesus' divine nature co-existed with His human nature from the moment of His conception.

 

[mandym]

Divine life does not have a conception, however Jesus' divine nature co-existed with His human nature from the moment of His conception.

You guys are talking past each other.

 

[Matt Black]

Your qualifiers are inept and explain nothing. They allow for all kinds of inferences and are weak at best.

In what way?

Creating heresies to avoid heresies is not a good way to handle it.

Just as well that I haven't then!

 

[Matt Black]

I already told you that at birth Jesus was born 100% human and 100% God. I only denied what LIFE was conceived was DIVINE life and that should be obvious as Divine LIFE cannot be conceived by anyone at anytime anywhere as it is eternal without conception or conclusion.

Please stop dodging the question: did Mary bear Jesus' divine as well as His human nature in her womb? Yes or no?

 

[Matt Black]

And the use of the word Mother in that case is incorrect.

What exactly did your mother do for you from when you were conceived?

Neither one of you has shown anything other than ineptness.

The resort of one who has no argument: insults. How very mature!

 

[mandym]

What exactly did your mother do for you from when you were conceived?

She conceived me.

The resort of one who has no argument: insults. How very mature!

You need to learn the definition of insult. That was not one.

 

[Matt Black]

I think you'll find that it took two individuals to result in your conception. But I didn't ask what your mother did to conceive you; I asked what she did for you after you were conceived.

Please answer the question.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

And the use of the word Mother in that case is incorrect.

Oh, yeah, please show how it is incorrect. As the mother of Jesus, she bore Him; since He was fully deity and fully human without separation of the two natures, she bore His full deity and full humanity. Therefore, she bore the deity of Jesus -- thus she was "Theotokos".



Neither one of you has shown anything other than ineptness.

To deny it is to embrace heresy.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

I thought of a statement to irk everyone. Jesus was born fully human and evolved into God as He grew older. The thread has really taken an odd course. For those who take everything seriously, my statement is sarcasm.

I do not think we fully understand the transistion from Christ in eternity past as God to fully man and God at the point of birth. We are told Mary was conceived of the Holy Spirit and gave birth to Jesus Christ, our Savior, fully man and God. He lead a sinless life, died for my sins on the cross, was buried, and rose on the third day to give me eternal life.

The exact details of eternity to the birth of Jesus are not completely known, but we know enough to be with the Lord for eternity. We really do not know what all Mary and Joseph saw Jesus do during his childhood. We get a glimpse with the incident at age twelve. No doubt they saw some unique things. How about the eighteen years we know nothing about? Who knows what He could have done. The Gospel says it was so much it could not all be written down.

The only group that I know that has the concept of God the Father recreating Himself at varioius eons of time is the Mormons. The Catholics believe God has always been, and that includes Christ and the Holy Spirit, the only three (in one) uncreated beings, and the only ones that are due worship and adoration.

I do not know why the person of Mary has to be so complicated. She is just like you or me. God uses us all for His purposes, and we are all sinners. End of story.

Oh, I was wondering, in all of these Mary sightings, did Joseph ever tag along?

Your post is a very good one. I like it!

 

[Michael Wrenn]

I don't see how it is possible to believe in the Incarnation and not believe that Jesus was fully God and fully human from conception. If then Jesus was fully God in Mary's womb, then it is completely justifiable to use the term "Theotokos" when referring to Mary, without falling into RC errors concerning her.

 

[Matt Black]

Completely agreed! :thumbsup:

 

[Bro. James]

I don't see how it is possible to believe in the Incarnation and not believe that Jesus was fully God and fully human from conception. If then Jesus was fully God in Mary's womb, then it is completely justifiable to use the term "Theotokos" when referring to Mary, without falling into RC errors concerning her.

Since when does the RC make errors concerning anything Catholic? There is ex-officio infallibility--several papacies back anyway. Vatican II certainly muddies the water regarding which group may or may not be making errors. There is a real serious schism is this regard--almost as bad as the one with the Greeks--who also claim to be the bastion of Christian orthodoxy.

Is it possible they are all in need of errata?

Peace,

Bro. James

 

[The Biblicist]

Please stop dodging the question: did Mary bear Jesus' divine as well as His human nature in her womb? Yes or no?

The Divine nature cannot be contained within Mary's womb any more than it can be contained within the entire universe! There was absolutely no conception of Deity or birth of diety in or by Mary. She gave birth to a "child" but the Son was "given" not conceived.

Mary provided absolutely NOTHING from her being to contribute to the conception or birth of Deity whatsoever in way shape or form.

 

[Yeshua1]

The Divine nature cannot be contained within Mary's womb any more than it can be contained within the entire universe! There was absolutely no conception of Deity or birth of diety in or by Mary. She gave birth to a "child" but the Son was "given" not conceived.

Mary provided absolutely NOTHING from her being to contribute to the conception or birth of Deity whatsoever in way shape or form.

mary gave birth to the God/man, but God 'supplied" the Deity/she "supplied" the humanity!

 

[Yeshua1]

To deny it is to embrace heresy.

She bore the God/man jesus, but his divinity did NOT originate from her, but from God!

God was in jesus, mary provided His human side!

 

[Walter]

She bore the God/man jesus, but his divinity did NOT originate from her, but from God!

God was in jesus, mary provided His human side!

It sounds like you are wanting to separate Christs divine nature from His human nature? Was not the Divine present in Mary's womb? I don't think anyone has asserted that the divinity of Jesus 'originated' from Mary but scripture clearly states Jesus was not created. John 1:1.

The title 'Theotokos' does not imply that Mary 'created' Christ's Divinity. She did 'bear' Jesus in her womb. The obvious conclusion is that she is 'God bearer'. Is Biblicists saying that Jesus was only human while in the blessed Mother's womb? Maybe I am misunderstanding him. I believe the two natures of Our Lord existed in Mary's womb from the moment 'she conceived by the Holy Spirit.

While I was attending Protestant churches I didn't like hearing the term 'Mother of God' because I thought it was a title meant to exalt Mary and probably resulted in goddess worship. After studying the history of that title I found out what I was taught in my Baptist church was not true and that even reformers like Martin Luther & John Calvin understood what this title actually implied. Now, I know why my Baptist church taught the term 'Mother of God' was blasphemy' but it is not known when the Protestant churches dropped this title for Mary or by what authority they did so since all of the principle reformers vigorously affirmed and defended this teaching.