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Mary Sightings in History

Michael Wrenn

New Member
That's a form of Adoptionism - another damnable heresy. How many more are we going to see today? I'm really quite shocked to see these old heresies put forward on a Christian discussion board.

It's quite amazing to me that the ones holding to these ancient heresies have had the gall to call me what they called me on this forum.
 

mandym

New Member
This whole Mary thing the Catholics are engaged in is worship. Plain and simple. It is pure heresy, it cannot be found in scripture, and it is an ungodly tragedy. Shame on all you.
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Correct - and? And God the Son Jesus was fully God and fully Man so you can't separate out His natures in that way.

mary gave physical birth to jesus, but His preexistence state as Divine was originated from God, not from mary!
 

Matt Black

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Anyone who says Mary wasn't Mother of God is saying that Jesus wasn't God. I really can't see why there is this logical disconnect with some people. So, no it's not a straw man, it's a potentially damnable heresy! If you're happy saying that Mary was Mother of God (with the usual qualifiers: no, that doesn't mean she pre-existed, or that she was mother of God the Father or God the Holy Spirit, just that she bore God the Son in her womb and gave birth to Him like any other mother does with her child), then I'm happy to accept your straw man comment; if not, then it's absolutely not a straw man and you need to take a hard look at what you believe about the nature of Jesus Christ.

[reply to #142]
 
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Michael Wrenn

New Member
NO! She is stating as all the rest of us here are that mary gave birth to the humanity of Jesus, that he already was in nature of god, and mary did NOT originate His diety, did NOT give birth to the trinity!

No, not "all the rest of us". I don't hold to the ancient heresies that you all are promoting.

No one is saying that Mary "originated" Jesus's deity!

Jesus was both God and man. The position you all are holding divides His two natures. This is an ancient heresy.

Try to get this: Mary BORE Jesus; she thus BORE both His divine and human nature. If you believe in the full deity and the full humanity of Jesus, why would you have a problem with this?
 

Matt Black

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
mary gave physical birth to jesus, but His preexistence state as Divine was originated from God, not from mary!
I'm fine with both of those statements. That doesn't alter the fact that His pre-existent divine state (as correctly stated by you) wasn't borne by Mary along with His human nature in her womb.
 

The Biblicist

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
How is that in anyway different then from your statement that "deny that conception is when that [hypostatic] union occurred. It occurred sometime before birth as deity was never "conceived" by even God much less Mary", apart from an issue of time? It it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a form of adoptionism...

You are perverting adoptionism into something it NEVER was historically or theologically defined to be. However, that proves to be convenient for you doesn't it!

Second, Whether the hypostatic union occurred at conception or birth makes no difference because Christ was born the God man either way. However, in keeping with Isaiah 9:6 which is about his birth the child was born but the Son was given and that denies that human conception or human birth can account for his Diety.
 

Matt Black

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
This whole Mary thing the Catholics are engaged in is worship. Plain and simple. It is pure heresy, it cannot be found in scripture, and it is an ungodly tragedy. Shame on all you.
I'm not Catholic and I don't engage in 'Mary worship' as you put it. But I can't deny that she was Mother of God (as qualified by me above) - that much is as plain as day.
 

mandym

New Member
I'm not Catholic and I don't engage in 'Mary worship' as you put it. But I can't deny that she was Mother of God (as qualified by me above) - that much is as plain as day.

To say she is Mother of God infers that God is both created and had a beginning. It is a poor use of words to explain the relationship between Jesus and Mary. Nothing you claim is plain as day except your poor attempt to justify a heresy.
 

Matt Black

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
You are perverting adoptionism into something it NEVER was historically or theologically defined to be. However, that proves to be convenient for you doesn't it!
Any doctrine that denies that Christ's divine nature existed from the moment of His conception but was put on Him at a later point is adoptionism.

Second, Whether the hypostatic union occurred at conception or birth makes no difference because Christ was born the God man either way.
Well, since we believe that all human life begins at conception (unless you're a pro-abortionist) and since Jesus was 100% human as well as 100% divine, then it does make a difference.
However, in keeping with Isaiah 9:6 which is about his birth the child was born but the Son was given and that denies that human conception or human birth can account for his Diety.
With that I agree, but it has no bearing on the fact that His divinity existed from the moment of His conception and therefore that Mary bore His divinity in her womb and therefore was Mother of God the Son! Why is this so difficult for you to understand?!
 

Michael Wrenn

New Member
To say she is Mother of God infers that God is both created and had a beginning. It is a poor use of words to explain the relationship between Jesus and Mary. Nothing you claim is plain as day except your poor attempt to justify a heresy.

Those who take it that way do not know or understand what the term "Theotokos" means, which is simply "God-bearer". Mary bore Jesus Who was fully God and fully man. That is not heresy. To deny it is.
 

Matt Black

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
To say she is Mother of God infers that God is both created and had a beginning.
You're tilting at straw men again - please re-read my qualifiers on the previous page.
It is a poor use of words to explain the relationship between Jesus and Mary. Nothing you claim is plain as day except your poor attempt to justify a heresy.
I'm afraid for you that it is a fully accurate use of words to avoid falling into several heresies which have already sadly been put forward on this thread by (evidently poorly-taught) Christians.
 

The Biblicist

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Any doctrine that denies that Christ's divine nature existed from the moment of His conception but was put on Him at a later point is adoptionism.

You are a man of SECULAR Church history authority/tradition. Where can you find that definition in TRADITION????

Well, since we believe that all human life begins at conception (unless you're a pro-abortionist) and since Jesus was 100% human as well as 100% divine, then it does make a difference.

We are talking about HUMAN life at conception not DIVINE life or do you really believe DIVINE life has a conception????
 

mandym

New Member
You're tilting at straw men again - please re-read my qualifiers on the previous page.

Your qualifiers are inept and explain nothing. They allow for all kinds of inferences and are weak at best.

I'm afraid for you that it is a fully accurate use of words to avoid falling into several heresies which have already sadly been put forward on this thread by (evidently poorly-taught) Christians.

Creating heresies to avoid heresies is not a good way to handle it.
 

The Biblicist

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Biblicist, answer this question: Do you deny that Mary bore Jesus in His full deity and humanity?

I already told you that at birth Jesus was born 100% human and 100% God. I only denied what LIFE was conceived was DIVINE life and that should be obvious as Divine LIFE cannot be conceived by anyone at anytime anywhere as it is eternal without conception or conclusion.
 

Michael Wrenn

New Member
I already told you that at birth Jesus was born 100% human and 100% God. I only denied what LIFE was conceived was DIVINE life and that should be obvious as Divine LIFE cannot be conceived by anyone at anytime anywhere as it is eternal without conception or conclusion.

So, you are saying that Jesus was not 100% God until the time of His birth? He was not 100% God while Mary was carrying Him in her womb?
 

mandym

New Member
Those who take it that way do not know or understand what the term "Theotokos" means, which is simply "God-bearer". Mary bore Jesus Who was fully God and fully man. That is not heresy. To deny it is.


Stop with the "do not understand the term" redirect. The use of the word God in this way includes the entire Trinity. So its use is false. Mary is not the Mother of God the Father nor is she Mother of God the Holy Spirit, nor is she Mother of Jesus deity.

The use of the term is inept and meant to support Mary worship.
 
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