Mary was probably a nice person???

[Joseph_Botwinick]

What are your thoughts about Marian Apparitions?

Also, why does it seem that Catholics focus so much attention on Mary?

Joseph Botwinick

 

[TP]

Greetings,

You asked: What are your thoughts about Marian Apparitions?

Response: Any Marian apparitions are in the field of private revelation. Public revelation ended with the death of Jesus and his last disciples. There is no more Public revelation. God communicated himself perfectly in his Son Jesus Christ.
Marian apparitions are private revelation and are not mandatory for belief. In fact, the church has always been leary of marian apparitions. We cannot deny that God may work in people's lives through private revelations. God will work as he wills. But they are NOT public and not required by anyone. Even apparitions like at Lourdes or Fatima are NOT mandatory for belief. They are said to contain to NO ERROR in the apparition, but are not mandatory.
Personally, I focus on Public revelation. Example: In some Marian apparitions it says to read scripture. Well, when teach I will NEVER say- Mary said that we should pray scripture in such and such an apparition. Rather I will say that Our church has always taught that Scripture is important and we should pray the scriptures. Even the scriptures themselves speak of their own importance.

You asked: Also, why does it seem that Catholics focus so much attention on Mary?

Response: Actually, I see more discussion on Protestant discussion boards about Mary than I ever see in Any Catholic Church. Example: in the seminary we have 21 credits every semester for 4 years of graduate school. Of the 168 credit hours of class only 2 credits are study of Mary in theology. Then Entire Mass(majority of Catholics spiritual life) is directed to the FATHER, through the SON, and in the HOLY SPIRIT. Mary is definitely important, but I think that protestants think there is more emphasis on Mary than there really is.

peace

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

O Virgin Immaculate, Mother of God and My Mother

O Virgin Immaculate, Mother of God and my Mother , from your sublime heights turn your eyes of pity on my. Filled with confidence in your goodness and knowing full well your power, I beg you to extend to me your assistance in the journey of life, which is so full of dangers for my soul. In order that I may never be a slave of the devil through sin, but may ever live with my heart humble and pure, I entrust myself wholly to you. I consecrate my heart to you forever, my only desire being to love your divine Son, Jesus. Mary, none of your devout servants has ever perished; may I, too, be saved. Amen.
Saint Ephraem of Edessa

 

[TP]

Greetings,

You asked: where is your Scriptural support for asking a mortal person, now in Heaven, to pray for you?

Response: In the Book of revelations it has the people around the throne of God with bowls of incense, which is the prayers of the people. I don't have a bible with me or the exact quote, but you will find it.

These people around the throne of God are offering the prayers of the people. Pretty clear to me.

peace

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Consecration to Mary

O Mary, Virgin most powerful and Mother of mercy, Queen of Heaven and Refuge of sinners, we consecrate ourselves to thine Immaculate Heart.

We consecrate to thee our very being and our whole life; all that we have, all that we love, all that we are. To thee we give our bodies, our hearts and our souls; to thee we give our homes, our families, our country. We desire that all that is in us and around us may belong to thee, and may share in the benefits of thy motherly benediction. And that this act of consecration may be truly efficacious and lasting, we renew this day at thy feet the promises of our Baptism and our first Holy Communion. We pledge ourselves to profess courageously and at all times the truths of our holy Faith, and to live as befits Catholics who are duly submissive to all the directions of the Pope and the Bishops in communion with him. We pledge ourselves to keep the commandments of God and His Church, in particular to keep holy the Lord's Day. We likewise pledge ourselves to make the consoling practices of the Christian religion, and above all, Holy Communion, an integral part of our lives, in so far as we shall be able so to do. Finally, we promise thee, O glorious Mother of God and loving Mother of men, to devote ourselves whole-heartedly to the service of thy blessed cult, in order to hasten and assure, through the sovereignty of thine Immaculate Heart, the coming of the kingdom of the Sacred Heart of thine adorable Son, in our own hearts and in those of all men, in our country and in all the world, as in heaven, so on earth. Amen.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

To Our Blessed Mother

We fly to your protection, most holy Mother of God; please listen to our petitions and needs, and deliver us from all dangers, ever glorious and blessed Virgin Mary.

Mary, our model and mother, by your obedience and patience you have taught us how to be true children of God. Please help us by your powerful assistance to overcome all our weaknesses, and to fulfill perfectly our tasks in life.

By your compassionate aid may we ever stand in spirit with you beneath the cross of Christ so that we may also rejoice with you in your divine Son's triumphant victory over sin and death.

In your maternal kindness help us to be faithful to prayers in the company of God's Church as you were one with the Apostles in the upper room as you waited for the promised Spirit of Pentecost.

With your gracious assistance may we be near you in the glory of Christ's kingdom come to sing with you and all the faithful the eternal praise of God. Amen.

V. O Mary, conceived without sin,
R. Pray for us who have recourse to you.

You are all fair, O Virgin Mary,
You never knew the stain of sin;
You are the glory of Jerusalem,
You, the joy of Israel,
You, the great honor of our people,
You, the advocate of sinners.
O Mary, Virgin most prudent,
O Mary, Mother most merciful,
Pray for us,
Intercede for us with our Lord,
Jesus Christ.

 

[TP]

Greetings,

Joseph, you have more marian prayers than any catholic I know. You must have a real devotion.

peace

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Ancient Prayer to the Virgin

We turn to you for protection,
holy Mother of God.
Listen to our prayers
and help us in our needs.
Save us from every danger,
glorious and blessed Virgin.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by TP:
Greetings,

Joseph, you have more marian prayers than any catholic I know. You must have a real devotion.

peace

These are all Catholic Prayers. It sure does seem as if the Catholics hold a higher view of Mary than you seem to think, claiming she is without sin, is the mother of all mankind, the Queen of Heaven, etc...

The way your religion describes her in your prayers almost seems godlike and seems reminenscent of Mormon theology of the god and goddess worship.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by TP:
In the Book of revelations it has the people around the throne of God with bowls of incense, which is the prayers of the people.

The book of Revelation is symbolic language. The four living creatures and the twenty-four elders are not particular people who are in Heaven, and certainly none of these 28 is Mary.

 

[TP]

Greetings,

All your prayers are very interesting. At the end of them them all it points to Jesus, Mary's son. Even though they talk up mary quite a bit, they all in the end point to Jesus.

Also, if you knew anything about Medieval Life, you would understand these prayers well. Look up poems of courtly Love. There is a genre of Medieval poetry all devoted to the ladies of the court. To flatter the King, you would write beautiful poems about the women of the court: How fair, how beautiful, how wonderful they were. They were Non-sexual poems about the women of the court in order to praise the King. This is called poetry of courtly love.
Most of the prayers to Mary you are referring to are written in the tradition of this courtly love tradition. They write extragently about the Mother of Jesus to Praise Jesus. It was part of the culture of the time. Understand the culture and you will understand the prayers. This is the problem with Sola Scriptura. You don't think history is important, but then you criticize eveything without understanding it.

peace

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Did any of these poems claim that the medieval women were without sin, were holy, and give them godlike powers? I don't think so. The facts are, that your false religion teaches idolatry by elevating Mary as a goddess.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[JustAsIAm]

Isn't there also an admonition in the Bible that we are not to practice necromancy, or communicating with the spirits of the dead? Check our Deuteronomy 18:9-14 The language is pretty strong, it is called a detestable practice before God.

I believe the references you are looking for are from Revelations 5:8 and 8:3,4. In the first passage, those with the prayers of the saints are heavenly creatures (the four "living creatures" and 24 elders), as is the angel spoken of in the latter verse. Even if the meaning is unclear in the first passage, read the second and see who the angel receives the prayers from - God himself.

Mary's obedience to God will always blow me away. When I am faced with a difficult challenge, especially in raising my children, I often think about her example. But she is dead and beyond hearing my prayers. I will ask the living to pray for me and look forward to meeting those who have gone before me later in heaven.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Aspirations to Mary

O MARY, conceived without sin, prayer for us who have recourse to thee.

HOLY MARY, pray for us!

IMMACULATE HEART of Mary, pray for us now and at the hour of our death.

SWEET HEART of Mary, be my salvation!

OUR LADY, Queen of Peace, pray for us!

 

[TP]

Greetings,

You said: Mary as a goddess.

Response: If you think this created being, Mary, could be conceived of as divine, then your idea of God and divinity is pretty low. God of all majesty, Glory and power, creator of all the universe, who holds all being together in himself in what God is. Mary is one of his creations, granted a very important part of creation but simply a creation. My thought wouldn't be that we see Mary as to high, but that people on this board see God to low.

By the Way: The catholic church teaches that mary is a creation, NOT a goddess. No matter how many times you assert that we believe she is a goddess, I will respond that that is wrong. Goddess worship is idolatry and the Catholic church forbids it. Please deal with what we really teach and not what you want to imagine that we teach.

peace

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Mary was a devoted young woman who God chose for a special task. Probably was a nice person. I still have a question though.

Did Mary need a Saviour, TP?

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by TP:
Greetings,

The people on this board are VERY afraid of Mary. Perhaps we could a agree on the statement "Mary was probably a nice person?". Is that okay, or are you going to tell me how mean she was.

This is another either-or fallacy. Either you worship at Mary's altars, pray to the dead, call her the queen of heaven and "allpowerful like Christ" and co-redemptrix with Christ, Mother of God -- OR you think "Mary is a mean person".

The fallacy you are trying leaves No reasonable ground to choose. You leave it as does the RCC with Mary's God title -- as a choice between two errors.

I asked in another Post about the Legitimate title: "Mother of God". This has always been a legitimate theological title, with very important Christological implications.

Odd that it was not EVER used by NT authors or any NT saints. Since you only leave them with "either OR choices" you would have to conclude that by refusing to use the title THEY did not believe Christ was God!

You insist that is the only "alternative" to the title - so you are stuck in that case.

It was always accepted by ALL the reformers.

I am not sure that some of the reformer were able to see the problem with mariolotry -- however it is clear that many who lost their lives to the RC inquisitors - were doing so out of refusal to worship Mary.

The problem with refusal to engage in mariolotry is NOT that non-Catholics are "soooo afraid to appear Catholic" that this is their only reason for avoiding the error of mariolotry. You have to look at the reasons actually give here and on the other thread to "see" why we do refuse the error of mariolotry. Making reasons up for us - is not a compelling form of discussion.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[TP]

Greetings,

You asked: Did Mary need a Saviour, TP?

Response: Yes, Mary needed a savior. God saved her at her conception rather than at her death, so that she would be prepared to Carry God within her. He created the perfect tabernacle for Jesus. Mry was a type of Ark of the covenant, carrying the presence of God. Everyone know that the ark was holy, so was Mary made Holy. Christ saved her in advance.

If there is quick sand there are two ways save someone: 1. If they are sinking into the muck we pull them out. 2. Or we stop them before they fall into the muck. Mary was stopped in advance to be Holy Vessel needed to carry God within her.

peace

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

I honestly don't understand why the administration of this board allows this type of heresy to be posted here under the guise of being another "Christian" denomination. Perhaps, in order to be honest, we need a new section of the board for heretical religions. It makes me sick that they are allowed to pass off Mariology and other false teachings of the RCC as being Christian.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Originally posted by TP:
Greetings,

You asked: Did Mary need a Saviour, TP?

Response: Yes, Mary needed a savior. God saved her at her conception rather than at her death, so that she would be prepared to Carry God within her. He created the perfect tabernacle for Jesus. Mry was a type of Ark of the covenant, carrying the presence of God. Everyone know that the ark was holy, so was Mary made Holy. Christ saved her in advance.

peace

Proof? Biblical evidence?