Mary was probably a nice person???

[menageriekeeper]

You can have your deceased husband, wife, John the Apostle, Jude, Peter or Paul intercede on your behalf.

You can have people that are in heaven, closer to God, pray for you. Or you can have me, a sinner, pray for you. It doesn't matter, we are all part of the mystical body of Christ. But, I bet their prayers are more powerful then mine.

Really? And why would I want them to?

The Bible is quite clear that the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:26-27) and Jesus Himself(Romans 8:34) are always interceding with God the Father on our behalf. If these two parts of the Godhead are interceding for us, why would we need anyone else to intercede. Can the Holy Spirit and Christ not do a good enough job? Is it not disrespectful to go around these Two and ask someone else to intercede with God? And just how do you expect them to intercede with God? Would they not first have to approach Christ and the Holy Spirit? Why would they go to that trouble when we are perfectly able to go to Christ and Holy Spirit ourselves? Do those in heaven not deserve their rest, that we would disturb them with our requests? Is their race not over?

 

[Armando]

Originally posted by menageriekeeper:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> You can have your deceased husband, wife, John the Apostle, Jude, Peter or Paul intercede on your behalf.

You can have people that are in heaven, closer to God, pray for you. Or you can have me, a sinner, pray for you. It doesn't matter, we are all part of the mystical body of Christ. But, I bet their prayers are more powerful then mine.

Really? And why would I want them to?

The Bible is quite clear that the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:26-27) and Jesus Himself(Romans 8:34) are always interceding with God the Father on our behalf. If these two parts of the Godhead are interceding for us, why would we need anyone else to intercede. Can the Holy Spirit and Christ not do a good enough job? Is it not disrespectful to go around these Two and ask someone else to intercede with God? And just how do you expect them to intercede with God? Would they not first have to approach Christ and the Holy Spirit? Why would they go to that trouble when we are perfectly able to go to Christ and Holy Spirit ourselves? Do those in heaven not deserve their rest, that we would disturb them with our requests? Is their race not over? </font>[/QUOTE]I don't know if you agree with your answer. You said:

Why would we need anyone else to intercede?

If this is true, then why do we pray (intercede)for each other? would you want someone else, like anyone here on earth, to pray for you? Or you pray for him/her? Look at your response and tell me that I am reading it wrong and that you beleive that people can intercede (pray) for each other.

If you believe that we can intercede for each other (like you pray for me or I pray for you), then the second question is: is it possible for souls that are in heaven to intercede for us?

Thanks
Armando

 

[Michael52]

Of course we ask others to pray for us. The Bible tells us to pray for each other.

But we ask others for prayer using normal human-to-human communications, like speech, note, sign language, etc.. We don't pray to them! If we are praying, we are already communicating directly with God.

Prayers are directed to the one who can answer, God. He knows what we are going to ask before we do. Middle-men (and women), whether in heaven or on earth are not necessary!

 

[DietofWorms]

Originally posted by Michael52:
Of course we ask others to pray for us. The Bible tells us to pray for each other.

But we ask others for prayer using normal human-to-human communications, like speech, note, sign language, etc.. We don't pray to them! If we are praying, we are already communicating directly with God.

Prayers are directed to the one who can answer, God. He knows what we are going to ask before we do. Middle-men (and women), whether in heaven or on earth are not necessary!

You understand, of course, that your response assumes a definition of prayer which is not shared by the RCC, the Orthodox churches and a number of liturgically grounded Protestant churches.

I detest as do you the idolatrous aspect that is associated with some of these so-called prayers. However, in those churches that base their worship of God in liturgy, prayer is then seen as having many different degrees and forms that are not necessarily worship driven. This view of prayer is shared by a number of even Protestant churches (though not typically Evangelical churches, as without liturgy, prayer worship is all they have to offer).

So if you hold, as the Catholics and the Orthodox churches do, that the glorified dead still have awareness of our activities and needs then, from their perspective, it is perfectly acceptable to ask the "saints" to join with them in their requests. From this perspective, prayer can be seen as, quote "normal human communication".

 

[menageriekeeper]

Ah, but can you give me any scripture reference where one of the apostles prayed(or asked if you prefer) someone who was already dead to intercede with God on their behalf.

Lets go back futher, did any of the prophets pray to another prophet for intercession?

Further than that, did Solomon pray to David? What about Jacob, did he pray to Abraham?

Not that I can find in my Bible. This is a tradition of man not of God.

This view of prayer is shared by a number of even Protestant churches (though not typically Evangelical churches, as without liturgy, prayer worship is all they have to offer).

So, if a church doesn't offer a liturgy it doesn't have any other way of worshiping God? Please tell me I have misunderstood you! I find this idea rather offensive. Prayer is just one way I worship God. I consider Bible study, praise and music, gathering with other Christians for the purpose of learning and edification and just simply being quiet in the presence of God to also be ways of worship.

As far as liturgies goes I want scriptural support for the idea that worship services must suscribe to the very same ritual over and over again. "Vain repetitions" are for pagans, not Christians.(Matt 6:7)

 

[DietofWorms]

Originally posted by menageriekeeper:
Ah, but can you give me any scripture reference where one of the apostles prayed(or asked if you prefer) someone who was already dead to intercede with God on their behalf.

Lets go back futher, did any of the prophets pray to another prophet for intercession?

Further than that, did Solomon pray to David? What about Jacob, did he pray to Abraham?

Not that I can find in my Bible. This is a tradition of man not of God.

I never said it wasn't. I just said that it couldn't be established that it wasn't based solely on evangelical definition of prayer which is not universal.

So, if a church doesn't offer a liturgy it doesn't have any other way of worshiping God? Please tell me I have misunderstood you!

No you understood me just fine. They are limited to the sacrifice of praise (in whatever form they might present - whether it be songs, or hands waving or standing around "in the presence"). They do not have the sacred, orthodox, liturgy that was given to the Church by Christ himself at the last supper - to "do this in memory of me".

I find this idea rather offensive.

Sorry but your offense is of no concern to me.

Prayer is just one way I worship God. I consider Bible study, praise and music, gathering with other Christians for the purpose of learning and edification and just simply being quiet in the presence of God to also be ways of worship.

IBID see above. These are just manifestations of the same thing.

As far as liturgies goes I want scriptural support for the idea that worship services must suscribe to the very same ritual over and over again. "Vain repetitions" are for pagans, not Christians.(Matt 6:7)

First of all please don't pretend for even a moment that your average evangelical service isn't a highly ritualized event. Been there and done that.

Let's see: first we'll have our entrance litany of oft repeated songs (usually just repeated choruses). Meanwhile there'll be at least a few people sitting around repeating something like "Praise ya Jeeezus" over and over again. Then there'll be the mandatory fire and brimestone sermon with all the same moves and gesticulations, some more "praise ys jeeesus"'s and interspersed with a song or two. This will lead into the mandatory moment of silence as we enter into the presence of the Holy Spirit. Finally, there will be the compulsary alter call. Call me liar if I haven't just described every evangelical sunday service and tuesday evening "bible study".

I note that you quote Matt 6:7 as your condemnation of liturgical worship. Well let's examine this verse a bit shall we. First of all the verse was talking about public shows of prayer for public reward. Liturgy is about the communal participation in a remembrance of salvation and a reenactment of the event in a highly symbolic manner. As such it would approximate the same ritualized worship that was the practice of the Jews (which Jesus actively participated in).

It was in the assembly of these same highly ritualized worship ceremonies (read liturgical) which Jesus condemned the Pharisees for actively attempting to stand out in. As far as I can tell the worst modern day culprits of this self-same "look-at-me" behaviour is not those who are participating in liturgical celebrations but rather those who look to make a big show of their piety with loud public displays. Which as Paul tells us may have the appearance of piety and a show of wisdom but ultimately serve only to satisfy man's pride.

 

[BobRyan]

Since Fr. TP says that he already responded to the pile of unnanswered questions directed to his posts -- I thought I would remind him of this unnanswered post.

From http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/2987/3.html#000036

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by TP:
Greetings,

The people on this board are VERY afraid of Mary. Perhaps we could a agree on the statement "Mary was probably a nice person?". Is that okay, or are you going to tell me how mean she was.

This is another either-or fallacy. Either you worship at Mary's altars, pray to the dead, call her the queen of heaven and "allpowerful like Christ" and co-redemptrix with Christ, Mother of God -- OR you think "Mary is a mean person".

The fallacy you are trying leaves No reasonable ground to choose. You leave it as does the RCC with Mary's God title -- as a choice between two errors.

I asked in another Post about the Legitimate title: "Mother of God". This has always been a legitimate theological title, with very important Christological implications.

Odd that it was not EVER used by NT authors or any NT saints. Since you only leave them with "either OR choices" you would have to conclude that by refusing to use the title THEY did not believe Christ was God!

You insist that is the only "alternative" to the title - so you are stuck in that case.

It was always accepted by ALL the reformers.

I am not sure that some of the reformer were able to see the problem with mariolotry -- however it is clear that many who lost their lives to the RC inquisitors - were doing so out of refusal to worship Mary.

The problem with refusal to engage in mariolotry is NOT that non-Catholics are "soooo afraid to appear Catholic" that this is their only reason for avoiding the error of mariolotry. You have to look at the reasons actually give here and on the other thread to "see" why we do refuse the error of mariolotry. Making reasons up for us - is not a compelling form of discussion.
</font>[/QUOTE]In Christ,

Bob

 

[John3v36]

Originally posted by DietofWorms:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by John3v36:
you know I see worship in heaven but never prays. us God wor the Bible as a ref.

the close I could find is:

Re 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.


I have always taken this as the prayers of us saint here on earth.

Not that I'm denying your conclusion but can you please explain your logic behind it. I'm not following based on the scripture you have provided. </font>[/QUOTE]if you find worship but no prays in heaven how could mary pray for us?

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by menageriekeeper:
Ah, but can you give me any scripture reference where one of the apostles prayed(or asked if you prefer) someone who was already dead to intercede with God on their behalf.

Lets go back futher, did any of the prophets pray to another prophet for intercession?

Further than that, did Solomon pray to David? What about Jacob, did he pray to Abraham?

Not that I can find in my Bible. This is a tradition of man not of God.

In fact God strictly forbids communion with the dead! (See Isaiah 8).

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BibleMaMa]

I have a word for the "Mother of God" as you so put it.

Try this on for size...........SINNER!
That is a good word for her.

People hold Mary up to be untouchable. Was she special? Yes. She gave birth to God in human form. But she was also just like any of us, a sinner who also needed a Savior for her soul.
She was not without sin and she is not God so why do people worship her more that God himself?

The Bible clearly teaches "Thou shalt have no Gods before me". Do not idol worship.

 

[DHK]

Topic of thread:

"Mary was probably a nice person??? "

Maybe she was a nice person. So what. There's lots of nice persons, and it was that way in her generation. Put more accurately, "Was she a good person?"
The Biblical answer:

Romans 3:10-12 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Mary may have been a nice person, but she wasn't a good person. Only God is good.
DHK

 

[tamborine lady]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by TP:
Greetings,

The people on this board are VERY afraid of Mary. Perhaps we could a agree on the statement "Mary was probably a nice person?". Is that okay, or are you going to tell me how mean she was.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tam says HOGWASH If there is one thing in this world I am NOT afraid of, it's Mary!!

Bless your heart TP! Where in the world did you get an idea like that?

Of course Mary was a vey nice person, and she is the Mother of Jesus, but to pray to her, or ask her to speak to her son on my behalf is ludicrus!!

Jesus said we were to pray to the Father in His name!!



Peace,

Tam

 

[TP]

Greetings,

You said: Tam says HOGWASH If there is one thing in this world I am NOT afraid of, it's Mary!!
Bless your heart TP! Where in the world did you get an idea like that?

Response: I posted this thread after a 7 page discussion on the tile "Mother of God" for Mary. It needs to be seen in that context for my comment to make sense. This is a Christological title used by early Chritians to reveal something about Jesus. This is the context of the comment. I would encourage you to read that thread from the beginning and you will understand my frustration.

You said: Of course Mary was a vey nice person, and she is the Mother of Jesus, but to pray to her, or ask her to speak to her son on my behalf is ludicrus!!

Response: All Catholics do is to ask Mary to pray for us. Just as we ask othre Chritsians to pray for us. Catholic believe that people who die in Christ are with Christ, and therefore since alive in christ, can continue to pray. We all pray to The Father, Through the Son, IN the Spirit: some do it in heaven, and some do it on earth.

peace

 

[TP]

Greetings,

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by TP:
Greetings,

This board format is very difficult to respond to different posts. I suppose I will learn someday.

You said regarding my comment: This is another either-or fallacy. Either you worship at Mary's altars, pray to the dead, call her the queen of heaven and "allpowerful like Christ" and co-redemptrix with Christ, Mother of God -- OR you think "Mary is a mean person".

Response: Actually, my comment was a hyperbole. After discussing for 7 pages on the theologically legitimate title "Mother of God" most of what I got from people is negative comments about mary. In the end, the main reason why people don't want the title is not theological, but emotional: We don't want mary to have that title because it feels like we are honoring mary to much. Theologically and logically the title is airtight, but people have an emotional problem with it because they have an aversion to anything that sounds like it exalts Mary. That was my reason for the comment: I didn't really thing any was going to say Mary was mean. I was using a hyperbole arguement.

You said: Odd that it was not EVER used by NT authors or any NT saints. Since you only leave them with "either OR choices" you would have to conclude that by refusing to use the title THEY did not believe Christ was God!

Response: Actually, the writers of the New Testament Never confronted the Nestorian Heresy. Much of what is written in the New Testament is explaining things in view of different issues such as the Judiazers for Paul, or the gnostics for John. Since the Nestorians were not around at that time, there was no need to explore that theological reality.

Also, I am not ASKING for anyone on this board to USE the title. I was just hoping that people would recognize the theological reality which it represents. I would not want anyone here to fall into Nestorianism, however that is exactly what happens when someone says Mary was the mother of Jesus, but not the mother of God. That implies that Jesus was a Human person, which he is not: He is a Divine person with a human and divine nature. To give Jesus TWO personhoods is to fall into heresy. Mary gave birth to a Person, not a nature.

You use the term: mariolotry

Response: CAtholics do not worship Mary. If they did it would be a sin against the first commandment. That is very clear in All CAtholic Teaching. WE are not discussing all the other titles of Mary or dogmas. Rather, we are discussing the title: "Mother of God" which is separate. Admitting that it is theologically legitimate does NOT mean anything regarding all the other titles and issues.

You said: however it is clear that many who lost their lives to the RC inquisitors - were doing so out of refusal to worship Mary.

Response: This is a boldface falsehood. Worshipping Mary is a Sin and nobody would ever be put to death for not sinning. Also, you seem to throw out the inquisitor thing pretty quickly. Please show me a documented court record from the inquisition where ANYONE was put to death for a marian issue. People throw out "RC inquisitors" as if it were a universally known fact. Well, I want evidence or don't use that arguement.

peace

 

[chipsgirl]

Originally posted by TP:
Greetings,

The people on this board are VERY afraid of Mary.

We are? I don't think anyone here is afraid of Mary. As a Baptist, we don't pray to Mary therefore we don't put her on a pedastal. Sure Mary was Jesus's mother, but to me she's just another interesting charecter in the Bible.

 

[TP]

Greetings,

You asked: Ah, but can you give me any scripture reference where one of the apostles prayed(or asked if you prefer) someone who was already dead to intercede with God on their behalf.


Response: Jesus

Peace

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Originally posted by chipsgirl:
Greetings,
Sure Mary was Jesus's mother, but to me she's just another interesting charecter in the Bible.

Wow...I guess this about sums it up. Of all the women that have every lived, God chose to become incarnate through the womb of the Virgin Mary--and she's merely "just another interesting character in the Bible"?? Incredible. Sounds like a pretty small view of Jesus if you ask me.

 

[Living4Him]

Peace of Christ to everyone.

I find it interesting that a large majority here are putting their own human limits on God.

God created Eve without sin, yet no one ever accused her of being created a goddess. However, Eve used her free will and she sinned.

So, why is it impossible to think that God would have chosen to create Mary without sin? All life is given from God. A husband and wife do not create a child without God, for God is over all. Isn't it possible that God choose to apply the merits of Christ sacrafice to Mary at the time of her conception?

IMHO, it seems a little hypocritical to say, "Nothing is impossible for God" in one breath and then on the other say, "It's impossible for Mary to have been created without sin."

 

[chipsgirl]

Originally posted by Doubting Thomas:
Wow...I guess this about sums it up. Of all the women that have every lived, God chose to become incarnate through the womb of the Virgin Mary--and she's merely "just another interesting character in the Bible"?? Incredible. Sounds like a pretty small view of Jesus if you ask me.

Sorry. To me Mary isn't anymore important than Moses or Noah, etc... They were all wonderful people that had incredible interactions with God but I think praying to Mary is putting her up there with Jesus.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Originally posted by chipsgirl:
Sorry. To me Mary isn't anymore important than Moses or Noah, etc... They were all wonderful people that had incredible interactions with God but I think praying to Mary is putting her up there with Jesus.

Neither Moses nor Noah gave God something He didn't alreay have and that was a human nature. Think about it--the God of the Universe Who created time and space chose to humble Himself and take on our humanity, and He did this through Mary. If you can't see how how this makes Mary unique (though, of course still, a created being) among all the saints, then I don't know what else to say, other than your Christology seems suspiciously Nestorian.

Also, honoring Mary (and asking for her intercessions) is not putting her on the same level as Christ. (When you ask your friends to intercede for you, are you thereby putting them on Christ's level?) Honoring Mary and the saints is simply honoring those whom God has honored.